Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Yeah. I hear that' date=' my short list at this point is Turtledove (as long as it isn't in his alternate Civil war won timeline group of series), Steven Brust and Donaldson. Maybe Dan Simmons too.[/quote']

Brust is on my shortlist too.

Damn good author.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I enjoy the Martin stuff' date=' but gave it up, because it was just to dang bleak. When it's done, and if there is a happy ending....[/quote']

Heh. Don't count on it! But that is half the fun.

 

I rather enjoy it (until he starts going off on the Princess :grumble, grumble: ...can't wait for that one to die, though I have the feeling it may not happen) because it makes you rather thankful for your own boring existence....

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Leiber is generally better. Of all the Eternal Champion stuff only Elric is actually any good, and even that is hit-or-miss. Apparently it was originally written as a magazine serial, or something, so the series is very uneven. The Elric books right after the first six are about the best--Fortress of the Pearl, and Revenge of the Rose. Lately it's gotten to where it seems like Moorcock hates writing Elric.

 

 

Myself, I like Moorcock too, sorta -- though to me the first few books are the best (the ones published in the two big omnibus SFBC editions, where poor old Elric gets whacked by Stormbringer at the end). But I must admit, I have some fondness for both Hawkmoon and Corum as well, at least the first series of each character. The later ones, I get the idea Moorcock wrote them just to kill the characters off in a nasty fashion because he could.

[Zed-F]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I've never read Howard, so I'd have to go with Tolkein by default. Although, I did read one book by Gemmel, and it left me unimpressed, so if Howard is similar, I expect I'd be similarly unimpressed with his work.

 

I enjoyed the first Eddings series (Pawn of Prophecy - Enchanter's End Game) and have read the Malloreon and the two Sparhawk trilogies, but I'll agree his work is pretty self-derivative. I'm glad to hear he has an honest opinion of his own work.

 

One author that I do really like is Guy Gavriel Kay. The Fionavar Tapestry is one of the most emotionally powerful series I've ever read. His other works vary in quality from good to excellent; I especially liked the Lions of Al-Rassan. If he does have a fault, it's that he can be overly clever at times.

 

Another author that I read recently is Jacquline Carey. Her Kushiel's Dart trilogy is pretty good, but a bit slow developing and probably not to everyone's taste.

 

Another author I haven't seen mentioned was Stephen R Donaldson. I bring him up not because I liked his Thomas Covenant series -- I didn't particularily -- but to point out that his SF is much better than his fantasy. He still writes pretty gritty stuff, but it seems to work better in a SF environment for some reason. The Gap Cycle was some pretty decent writing, and worth a look.

[Susano]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Myself' date=' I like Moorcock too, sorta -- though to me the first few books are the best (the ones published in the two big omnibus SFBC editions, where poor old Elric gets whacked by Stormbringer at the end). But I must admit, I have some fondness for both Hawkmoon and Corum as well, at least the first series of each character. The later ones, I get the idea Moorcock wrote them just to kill the characters off in a nasty fashion because he could.[/quote']

 

I will have to say, I did enjoy the Chronicles of Corum.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Another author I haven't seen mentioned was Stephen R Donaldson.

 

I mentioned in my list of authors to buy automatically... and if you check out my username, that has a standing implied comment of what I think of his work.

 

His stuff polarizes people - most either love it or detest it, but not so many go "it's okay".

I think the Gap is possibly the best SF I have ever read.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I mentioned in my list of authors to buy automatically... and if you check out my username, that has a standing implied comment of what I think of his work.

 

His stuff polarizes people - most either love it or detest it, but not so many go "it's okay".

I think the Gap is possibly the best SF I have ever read.

Put me down as one of the exceptions. I've got no strong feelings either way. I enjoyed reading Covenant (all 6), but probably wouldn't go through the effort a second time. (although I might have read the first three twice, back when they were shiny and new).

 

Keith "fence straddler" Curtis

[Markdoc]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Odd' date=' it takes me about a week to wade through a typical Conan story. Where-as these days I can bust through the entire LotR trilogy in a month or less.[/quote']

 

 

Say wha'? For me, a typical Conan story is 20-30 minutes (tops) and LoTR is 2-3 evenings (or one lazy weekend day).

 

How could you stretch a Conan story out to a week? Really, it's a serious question. I have the old sphere paperbacks, which have about a half-dozen stories in each and 2 of those makes an evening's reading.

 

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Put me down as one of the exceptions. I've got no strong feelings either way. I enjoyed reading Covenant (all 6)' date=' but probably wouldn't go through the effort a second time. (although I might have read the first three twice, back when they were shiny and new)[/quote']

 

I read the entire Covenant series twice. The second time I decided that keeping the books was a waste of my shelf space.

[Markdoc]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

And as for Lieber versus Moorcock, again I'll take both. Lieber basically invented the fantasy-buddy and gritty fantasy genres, but the writing is just "OK" - and some the very last stories are rubbish. Moorcock is responsible for all that Law versus Chaos stuff, plus pretty much invented the angsty, irritating hero. Unlike Lieber, his writing has gotten noticeably better with time (see, for example, Gloriana) - but his latest Elric books are pretty awful. Instead of being angsty and violent Elric (Blood and souls for my lord Arioch!) is developing noticeable hippy qualities (Can't we all just get along? No? Well, I'll have to kill you then - but I want you to know I won't enjoy it.

 

Ick.

 

Still they're both worth a read. Unlike the Shannara series, which is only one step above toilet paper, because - based on personal experience - the paper is too rough...

 

cheers, Mark

[GothKidSamurai]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Say wha'? For me, a typical Conan story is 20-30 minutes (tops) and LoTR is 2-3 evenings (or one lazy weekend day).

 

How could you stretch a Conan story out to a week? Really, it's a serious question. I have the old sphere paperbacks, which have about a half-dozen stories in each and 2 of those makes an evening's reading.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

Because I can't personally stand Howard's writing style. Nothing about the writing grabs at all. And the "hero" is so far different from me in values that I usually find myself wishing he'd just get killed and finish the whole thing.

[GothKidSamurai]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

 

Still they're both worth a read. Unlike the Shannara series, which is only one step above toilet paper, because - based on personal experience - the paper is too rough...

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

Again, we differ in opinion here. I actually enjoy reading the Shannara books. Well, I haven't read any since I was like 16, but I remember them as being fun reads.

[Susano]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Again' date=' we differ in opinion here. I actually enjoy reading the Shannara books. Well, I haven't read any since I was like 16, but I remember them as being fun reads.[/quote']

 

So did I... until I tried re-reading Sword of Shannara.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

So did I... until I tried re-reading Sword of Shannara.

And here's the crux of it, I think.

 

How many of us have stated our opinion based on something we've read recently, as opposed to opinions based on something we read years ago.

 

For example, I haven't read Tolkien in years, but I think if I were to read him again, he'd fall to a lower place on my list. Butcher, Brust, Gemmell, Stackpole and others are near the top of my list because I've read them more recently. Donaldson is on my list, but I haven't read the 6 Covenant books since...well, since just after the 6th one came out. In my mind, as odd as they could be, I liked 'em. Same with Shannara stories. I still have fond memories of those books (at least 3 of 'em, maybe 4), but I don't think I could (or should) read them again. It might spoil it for me. Robert E. Howard is someone I wasn't a big fan of when I was growing up and getting into the fantasy genre, but I don't believe I fully appreciated the subtleties (much less the blatanties) of his style until I reread the books not long ago.

 

As we mature so do our tastes, styles and preferences. We change, and by default part of what changes is what we like and dislike. What was a "fun read" as a kid might annoy the bejeezus out of you now, and what was tedious and boring to you back then might be pure gold today.

 

Just some random thoughts on the subject.

[Susano]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

As we mature so do our tastes' date=' styles and preferences. We change, and by default part of what changes is what we like and dislike. What was a "fun read" as a kid might annoy the bejeezus out of you now, and what was tedious and boring to you back then might be pure gold today.[/quote']

 

I think you are very correct. I read, and re-read Sword of Shannara over and over when I was younger (say high school, early college), but a few years back when I tried to reread my copy, I found I couldn't get past page 2. Within not pages, but paragraphs, I realized how poorly written the novel was and tossed it into my "sale" pile. Re-reading the 50th Anniversary edition of LOTR I received for my last birthday made me realize that A) LOTR is epic in scope, there is a grand total of one (maybe two) memorable female characters, and C) for the most part, there's not a lot of character development -- everyone has their role to play, and no one really questions it too much. Oh, and it is lightyears ahead of Sword of Shannara on the literary scale.

 

Howard has always been readable for me and the recent re-releases of his original, unedited stories, has made them even more readable (IMO). Yes, he had many views we would consider racist today (mainly dealing with then-accepted notions of racial destiny and so on), but he could write a swiftly moving yarn and certainly was a better story teller (and just as imaginative in his own way) as Edgar Rice Burroughs, who while an adequate writer, wasn't all that stellar a words smith.

 

Speaking of such things, I really should start to re-read my Elric and Corum collections... I might find myself unable to deal with his storytelling style and pitching them to the side as well. Interestingly, I have been reading some of my general fiction recently (Metro train rides are perfect for this), and have found The Pyrates to still be absurdly fun, and Treasure Island to be a great read (say... perhaps I should do a character sheet for Long John Silver... any votes?).

 

After Elric and company, I think it's time I tackled that Amber collection I picked up dirt cheap in the discount bin. The entire run of Amber stories in one book -- that should keep me busy for a while.

 

While on the subject of the "read it, dump/keep it" method; before I moved into my parent's basement for 2.5 years I did something like that -- reading various books and purging the ones I felt were not worth keeping. Now that I'm on my own again, I've started the process over, pitching not only various works of fiction (Zelazny's A Dark Traveling, for example), but comics trades (all of my Stormwatch and Authority), and even manga (say goodbye to my Dragonball collections!). The premise is simple? Does the book hold my attention? Is it a good read (this is hard to quantify, as this thread can attest)? Will it be worth it to pick up at a later date and reread again? If "no" then the book goes in the pile. Anything I can't finish (Shannara for example), gets tossed right quick, things I do finish (A Dark Traveling), I think about. For the record, I tossed A Dark Traveling because I felt it started well, then kinda went south towards the end. On the other hand, I kept Roadmarks, if only because I think it's a fun, fast read and has several amusing cameos (Doc. Savage is one, and I swear Jack the Ripper is another).

[Savinien]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Heh. Don't count on it! But that is half the fun.

 

I rather enjoy it (until he starts going off on the Princess :grumble, grumble: ...can't wait for that one to die, though I have the feeling it may not happen) because it makes you rather thankful for your own boring existence....

 

Hear, hear. I like the Martin stuff but don't like the portion of the Dragon whatchamajiggy. Pretty epic in scope and not afraid to kill off some characters.

 

What about China Meivile?

[Susano]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Hear, hear. I like the Martin stuff but don't like the portion of the Dragon whatchamajiggy. Pretty epic in scope and not afraid to kill off some characters.

 

What about China Meivile?

 

Perdidio Street Station is fantastic. The Scar slightly less so, if only because we've been to this world before and some of the wonderment has rubbed off. Iron Council I felt lacked a bit. It didn't flow as well, and seemed to have a rushed ending. However, he is a fine writer who can really create a detailed setting and highly memorable and colorful characters. However, his vocabulary is such some my find his books hard to wade through.

[Curufea]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Bwahahaaa - my work here is done ;-p

[prestidigitator]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Another author I haven't seen mentioned was Stephen R Donaldson. I bring him up not because I liked his Thomas Covenant series -- I didn't particularily -- but to point out that his SF is much better than his fantasy. He still writes pretty gritty stuff' date=' but it seems to work better in a SF environment for some reason. The Gap Cycle was some pretty decent writing, and worth a look.[/quote']

Woo hoo! I was holding myself back with difficulty, but as long as Sci-Fi came up, I'll just slip in that I hold Asimov to be the Tolkien of the genre. My absolute faaaavorite Sci-Fi author. Read him as a child, read him now as an adult. I sop up Asimov books at the used bookstore like a dry sponge (and still can't find some of the Empire books; might be time to try Amazon or something)!

[Steve]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Woo hoo! I was holding myself back with difficulty' date=' but as long as Sci-Fi came up, I'll just slip in that I hold Asimov to be the Tolkien of the genre. My absolute faaaavorite Sci-Fi author. Read him as a child, read him now as an adult. I sop up Asimov books at the used bookstore like a dry sponge (and still can't find some of the Empire books; might be time to try Amazon or something)! [/quote']

 

Hmm, if we are talking about sci-fi's answer to J.R.R. Tolkien and LOTR, wouldn't that be more likely to go to Frank Herbert and Dune?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Asimov's writings, and I even read a lot of his science books alongside the sci-fi stuff he wrote. The man was a writing machine! The Foundation series was pretty amazing stuff.

 

But if we are talking about a sci-fi epic, I think that would be Dune.

 

Along the lines of this thread, if we are also talking about a Robert E. Howard equivalent in sci-fi, I think that would be either Larry Niven or Robert Heinlein.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

The thing is... Fantasy is Fantasy. The only differences between the various genres depends on how close you zoom in on the action.

 

For instance... if you stand way back and examine Tolkien's world, you'll see Epic Fantasy. But, start zooming in, focusing on one particular city, or even a specific person... while ignoring international events... you'll see gradually finer degrees of High Fantasy, Sword & Sorcery, and down to Low Fantasy.

 

Personally, I'd like to play in an adventure that focuses on the activities of a small group in a Tolkien-style world, having Howard-style adventures... perhaps having an effect on major events, but being totally unaware of it.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Lord of the Rings was epic.

 

As for epic science fiction...

 

Lensman is one of the seminal works there, and for that matter, a lot more influential than a lot of people give it credit for.

 

Stranger in a Strange Land is another book which had a lot of influence, and for that matter if any SF book can be considered to be the counterpart to LotR in terms of influence on counterculture, that's it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Hmm, if we are talking about sci-fi's answer to J.R.R. Tolkien and LOTR, wouldn't that be more likely to go to Frank Herbert and Dune?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Asimov's writings, and I even read a lot of his science books alongside the sci-fi stuff he wrote. The man was a writing machine! The Foundation series was pretty amazing stuff.

 

But if we are talking about a sci-fi epic, I think that would be Dune.

If we are talking just the epic distinction, I think Dune or Asimov's Robot series would come pretty close. In terms of knowledge of the genre, consistency of the threads of history, and world building, I see Asimov's universe as the corollary to Tolkien's Middle Earth. Don't get me wrong: I consider Dune (itself; not the whole series) to be a great classic too. Herbert just didn't have the detail and volume of work behind his stories; he didn't really need to, the way he told them.