starblaze Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Which one do you prefer? I realize that they represent two different types of Fantasy Genre. Howard's tales mainly being that of Sword and Sorcery and Tolkien being High Fantasy, but they have gained a considerable amount of popularity. I many ways I have to admit to liking Howard more because I find him fun and captivating to read. Lord of the Rings is a classic to be sure, but Conan and Howards other creations have a more faster and exciting pace. I think it really comes down to a literary classic being compared to just fun reading. But that is IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? Tolkien, no contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? Howard was my first love in fantasy, and I can re-read his works endlessly, so I'll have to go with him. Tolkien, as grand as he is, I could read once and that was it. I just wish some of the current fantasy authors would read something other than Tolkien! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? C.S. Lewis and Brother's Grimm. Who, I would argue, have more influence on modern fantasy than either Howard of Tolkien. H & T influenced gamer fantasy, along with Leiber, Vance, and Moorcock; but none of these authors seem to have had much impact in literary fantasy outside of that fantasy written by gamers... So, I would say I prefer the Grimms and Lewis, as well as Leiber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? For me it's Howard. I just started reading The Conan Chronicles: Vol. 1. The unedited Howard is raw and primal and passionate. Howard gets far too little praise for his writing ability, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? I love them both, but for different reasons. For Tolkien it's the depth of his world: the detail, the consistency, the sheer breadth of it. Just reading The Lord of the Rings you can hear the resonance of the mythic history that's gone before, infusing everything with a sense of depth. You can also hear the passionate love that Tolkien feels for his creation, which IMHO lends passion to the characters and their struggles. Howard I love for his vivid, action-filled, colorful storytelling, full of nailbiting suspense, moody detail and larger than life heroes and villains. Nobody spins an adventure yarn better IMHO. C.S. Lewis and Brother's Grimm. Who, I would argue, have more influence on modern fantasy than either Howard or Tolkien. H & T influenced gamer fantasy, along with Leiber, Vance, and Moorcock; but none of these authors seem to have had much impact in literary fantasy outside of that fantasy written by gamers... So, I would say I prefer the Grimms and Lewis, as well as Leiber. Certainly the influence of the authors you cite is directly visible in the work of modern fantasy games, but wider influence on the genre fiction as a whole is of course more important. I agree that the Brothers Grimm had a profound effect on the conventions of fantasy, but the genre was largely languishing as popular entertainment before LotR revitalized interest in it. One of the earliest beneficiaries of that new interest was Howard, with republication of his short stories; and Conan remains perhaps the most recognized fantasy hero. Lewis more popular and influential than Tolkien? I would argue that one back at you. Both of them took themes and tropes from classic myth and fairytales and made them their own, and certainly rendered them more accessible to successive generations of authors; but I've seen more fantasy literature (including bestselling stuff) that's clearly a riff on Middle Earth than on Narnia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThothAmon Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? For me Fritz Leiber was the man. However, if forced to choose between just those two it would have to be Howard as IMO Tolkien's writing is devoid of humour, satire and many of the more visceral emotions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothKidSamurai Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? Tolkien hands down. Though I still prefer Lewis to him. For some reason I just can't read Howard. Or Lovecraft for that matter. Just boring to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? Tolkien hands down. Though I still prefer Lewis to him. For some reason I just can't read Howard. Or Lovecraft for that matter. Just boring to me. I'm the same way with Tolkien. I keep finding myself thinking: 'Ok, you've spent 3 paragraphs telling me about the leaves. Now tell me what the darn treant does!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothKidSamurai Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? I'm the same way with Tolkien. I keep finding myself thinking: 'Ok' date=' you've spent 3 paragraphs telling me about the leaves. Now tell me what the darn treant does!' [/quote'] Yeah, gotta love the fact that art is like 95% subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? I somehow can't seem to make myself read Conan stories. Nor Forgotten Realms novels. Heh. Tolkien is my absolute favorite fantasy author. Marrion Zimmer Bradley ranks pretty highly as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings were the first "adult" books I ever read. I would have to say that Tolkein has been the most influential on me. I like Howard as well as most authors from the Lovecraft circle, but I didn't particularly like the Conan stories as much as his "Cthulhu Mythos" stories. Now, I haven't gone back and read the Conan stories in almost two decades so maybe my view on them would change with age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevenall Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? I can read Tolken and Leiber again and again and get something new from them every time. Howard doesn't have that kind depth for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? Tolkein I can read over and over again. Howard has always been a chore. It's something I read because it seemed that I was supposed to like it. I've tried and it puts me to sleep. Keith "YMMV" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trencher Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? I like Tolkien the best. I also like epic fantasy better than sword and sorcery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starblaze Posted October 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? In a cage match I would have to give it Howard. Tolkien was an old man but Howard was a big texan guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? In a cage match I would have to give it Howard. Tolkien was an old man but Howard was a big texan guy. Yeah but Howard was a little weird about his mom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? More than "a little." Pardon my ignorance, but did Lewis do anything fantasy besides Narnia? I'm raking my brain and nothing comes to mind. Note that I reguard his Out of the Silent Planet stuff as sci-fi, not fantasy (YMMV). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothKidSamurai Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? Out of the Silent Planet and Perelandra could be considered sci-fi. Not that I would, definately more fantastic than scientific, but I can see where people would get that idea. Hideous Strength though is definately fantasy leaning though. It even features the most famous wizard of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? Pardon my ignorance' date=' but did Lewis do anything fantasy besides Narnia?[/quote']Narnia is all I know of, but I would argue the style in Narnia is a better match for 'non gamer literary fantasy' than the styles of Tolkien or Howard. Howard's Conan though, is still closer to modern fantasy than Tolkien. Tolkien's non human races just throw him so far from so much of fantasy, and his thin characterization is very unusual for the genre - much of which is far closer to Robert Jordan than Tolkien on that score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamo Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? Howard. Most definitely Howard. Tolkien was the forerunner of a particularly damaging conceit that has since infected fantasy fiction to a saddening degree. That conceit would be that the "world" has value independent of the characters and their stories. Tolkien created fantasy mythologies, languages and histories first and then wrote novels about them as a secondary pursuit. Howard was all about the story. Using Howard's method, no extraneous detail has any rightful place in a story if it doesn't bear directly on what the characters are dealing with at a given moment. Tolkien viewed story as secondary to "world-building". Howard recognized that in exciting fantasy, "world-building" is, at best, a neccessary evil committed in pursuit of a thrilling story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? That said, the 'replay value' of Tolkien stems directly from the depth of his worldbuilding. I prefer Howard's works (and Leiber's) as they are much more character-driven and interesting, but Howard's stuff never inspired people to publish thick books that contain nothing but maps of Hyboria, the way people have with Middle-Earth. Tolkien really gave the sense that Middle-Earth was a real place. This is a big appeal of his work that should not be overlooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJackBrass Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? ...IMO Tolkien's writing is devoid of humour' date=' satire and many of the more visceral emotions.[/quote'] Must disagree with you there. The Hobbit in particular is packed with humour; The Lord of the Rings certainly takes itself more seriously, but Tolkien's sense of humour shows up in several of his other tales such as Farmer Giles of Ham, which is arguably lightly satirical too. Not sure that I could pick a favourite between the two authors, though. I read Howard and Tolkien for different reasons and at different times. Both suffered badly from imitators who left the general public with the impression that Howard was all about mindless violence and Tolkien nothing but academic world creation, whereas the original stories show so much more. Both have their faults, however, with Howard rather caught up in his noble savage ideals and Tolkien sometimes seeming aloof from his characters, but I'm fond of each writer in their own right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothKidSamurai Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? Both have their faults, however, with Howard rather caught up in his noble savage ideals and Tolkien sometimes seeming aloof from his characters, but I'm fond of each writer in their own right. Oddly enough, you hit the nail on the head as to why I prefer Tolkien. I like the approach where he backs away from the characters and focuses more on the world and the story itself. And the most annoying part for me when trying to read a Conan story is Howard's constant preaching about barbarians and society and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJackBrass Posted October 2, 2005 Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien? Thinking about Howard's tendency to over-praise the "savage," it came to mind that in some ways Tolkien does the same thing. In his writings "modern" peoples are often greatly reduced from their illustrious forefathers. However, Howard seemed frequently (throughout his writings, not just in the Conan stories) to take the view that civilisation is inherently bad, leading only to weakness and degeneration, whereas in Tolkien the earlier races were often more civilised than their descendents as well as being physically and, perhaps, morally superior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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