Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Tolkien tends to hail back to the classical view of there once being a golden age and we have fallen into dark and degenerate times. It's a pretty traditional view in a lot of cultures.

 

While I'm not sure that Howard ever read Rosseau, to some extent I think they shared the same romanticized view of the noble savage.

 

And I also tend to agree with some of the above sentiments. Tolkien was the master world builder, but Howard infused his characters and plots with an energy and vitality that Tolkien never managed. That said, there's a depth to the Lord of the Rings that the Conan stories lack. The flip side of that is that Howard was good enough that I for one don't care about that.

[arcady]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

...but Howard's stuff never inspired people to publish thick books that contain nothing but maps of Hyboria' date=' the way people have with Middle-Earth.[/quote']On the other hand, 99% of all Conan out there was not written by Howard. He's clearly inspired something...

 

Nobody writes much about the characters of Tolkien in new stories, save for maybe some fetish fan-fic on the net - but those people will write about anything...

[Wilfred_Death]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Howard, Then somewhere down near to beating my head against a brick wall ( Some of my headaches get real bad - and I have tried it ) Tolkien.

 

I mean Tolkien is an excellent writer, fantastic settings well developed and all that. However you have the 10E6 Pt Gandalf type, 'triumphing' over the Hordes...........

 

I Find Howard the other way round.

 

For a critical Review of Tolkien's Middle Earth, read Michael Moorcock's article about Sauron & Co. Representing : Working Class Yobs, attacking the bucolic Middle Class represented by 'The Shire'

 

Most respondents write of Howard's Conan stories, of which there are only a few - ( But I think they are good )

I think you'd have to include:

Buckner Jeopardy Grimes, Solomon Kane, Kull Of Valusia, Bran the Pict and others.

Yes he does waffle on about Aryan Racial Purity and such and so is probaly "too non PC" to "Allow people to read":)

 

I like the Terror and Spectral dread that Howard creates.

Also as far as I know Howard never wrote a "Silmarillion" analogue and therefore is by definition "better":)

 

I find even Howard's poetry gripping, especially "That which will be scarcely understood"

 

And: I Hates Hobbittses!

[GothKidSamurai]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

On the other hand, 99% of all Conan out there was not written by Howard. He's clearly inspired something...

 

Nobody writes much about the characters of Tolkien in new stories, save for maybe some fetish fan-fic on the net - but those people will write about anything...

 

 

But that has more to do with how aggressive the Tolkien estate is in protecting their copyrights.

[rayoman]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Tolkein I can read over and over again. Howard has always been a chore. It's something I read because it seemed that I was supposed to like it. I've tried and it puts me to sleep.

 

Keith "YMMV" Curtis

 

 

I agree with you Keith. I can read Tolkein over and over again. I like the Conan stories but I liked reading Robert Jordan written Conan novels better than Howards. I can't seem to get past the third Howard Conan book.

 

Now, saying that I liked Robert Jordan would imply that I can read the Wheel of Time series. I can't read more than about 10 pages then I put it down.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I can read Tolken and Leiber again and again and get something new from them every time. Howard doesn't have that kind depth for me.

That is a really good point. To me it embodies the difference between a good piece of literature and a classic. In a classic, there is something for those of all age groups. There is a depth that one can keep learning from, over and over. There is something in the story that keeps making you stretch mentally, no matter how familiar you are with it. And Tolkien has more of this depth, this classical nature, than any other fantasy writer I have ever encoutered.

 

A better writer, in terms of the flow of story, the style, the level of immersion? Maybe. We can all differ over that. But in Tolkien there is something that goes beyond writing style into the realm of legend.

 

[Trencher]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Oddly enough' date=' you hit the nail on the head as to why I prefer Tolkien. I like the approach where he backs away from the characters and focuses more on the world and the story itself. [/quote']

Yep Tolkiens characters are defined by what they do and that is not allways what I expect. Howards characters are allways very open to us, he often speak directly to the reader about the main characters motivation.

 

And why does some of the Howard fans attack Tolkien but not the other way around?

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

My father introduced me to Edgar Rice Burroughs when I was pretty young and through Tarzan, Conan the Barbarian. I loved the works of both authors and thought, in my immature mind, that they were the apex of adventure and fantasy. The thing was, at the time, I also considered Nero Wolfe and the Lensman books the apex of mystery and sci fi. Boy was I wrong.

In high school I tried to read tolkien, first the Hobbit then the LOTR. I have to say I gave up on both after only a few hours of reading. Where was the action? I did discover Asimov and Clark and Silverberg and I didn't read another fantasy book until many years later. While cruising the Indian Ocean, I got bored, having exhausted not only all MY sci fi books but those of everyone else on the ship as well, I asked my father to mail me something to read. Tolkien arrived and I was now several years older and more mature. I realized how shallow Burroughs and Howard had been.

Over the last thirty years I have read Tolkien's LOTR and Hobbit at least 20 times. It is almost a yearly thing for me. When Silmarillion was published I had to struggle through it the first time, but now it has become a nearly annual read as well. How do I judge whether I prefer Horward or Tolkien? I have NEVER read a Conan novel twice. In fact for me to read a book twice at all is something of an anomally.

As for other fantasy writers? I am afraid I have given up the genre after seeing a huge flood of various D&D type crap in the late '70's and '80's. The only acception to this being, David Eddings. I have read all of his books exactly twice.

[GothKidSamurai]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

And why does some of the Howard fans attack Tolkien but not the other way around?

 

 

Before I fully wrapped my head around the concept of how highly subjective art really is, I bashed Howard whenever I could.

[arcady]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

As for other fantasy writers? I am afraid I have given up the genre after seeing a huge flood of various D&D type crap in the late '70's and '80's. The only acception to this being' date=' David Eddings. I have read all of his books exactly twice.[/quote']I went through the same thing for the same reasons.

 

I tried reading a novel by Elminsterwood (Ed Greenwood) -Azure Bonds or something like that- and I tried reading the fourth seires of Dragonlance books about their nieces, nephews, or something, and after that I couldn't even read a newspaper for three or four years...

 

Some switch in my head just literary shut off. It was like the part of mind that wanted literature said 'this is so bad we're turning off the power and shutting down the plant'...

 

I didn't get back into reading until I found the author Barbara Hambley and her novel Dragonlance. After that for a good decade I just flat out refused to touch anything by a male author - fearing a repeat of what I'd been through with the TSR books...

 

But I'm past that now, although I still avoid gamer fantasy like I would a crack-ho on Capp street... There are some things that well, it's just not worth the risk of catching.

 

 

What I would recommend is not avoiding fantasy, but spending about three to four hours in your local Borders / Barnes & Noble with a stack of maybe ten books from authors you've never read nor heard anything about, and narrowing it down until you get just one. Do that for your next several reads, and make sure each is as different from the last as possible. After that, you may manage to find a 'way back in' to enjoying fantasy literature again. That's about what I did - with the novels I read after Hambley's. I only grabbed Dragonsbane because of the cover art (a dragon holding a woman in it's claws) and a blurb about saving a dragon from an evil princess or something like that...

[tkdguy]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I enjoyed reading both Tolkien and Howard. I have to go with Tolkien, though, simply because his writings definitely changed my perception of the world. I found the entire creation story and the struggles of the Noldor in The Silmarillion so exciting, most of my characters in AD&D were elves or half-elves (I didn't learn to play HERO until much later).

[Badger]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Nowadays, Tolkien. 10 years ago, Howard. Tastes change somewhat. Though I dont mind either. Still rather read them than the D&D stuff (what little I have read of them, best left unsaid). Technically my tastes usually run more to sci-fi and the occasional Western than fantasy (though I do like some fantasy too). Anyway, at this time Tolkien.

 

 

Course, when I first saw this thread, I briefly thought of Conan being dropped onto Middle Earth. Conan driving through orcs of Middle Earth, would be interesting. Though I could see him getting on Gandalf and Co.'s nerves pretty quickly. And the costumes of some of the women in Conan stories would seem to a bit......er.....indecent for the setting.

[Spence]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I consider any comparison of the two to be an apple and oranges thing. They both wrote and inspired genres that I enjoy. No matter who wrote them (T or H or imitators).

 

I have found I really enjoy adapting H's style stories to gaming much more that T's.

[Old Man]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

On the other hand, 99% of all Conan out there was not written by Howard. He's clearly inspired something...

 

Nobody writes much about the characters of Tolkien in new stories...

 

I must disagree--surely Tolkien has inspired at least as many authors as has Howard. The only difference is that they can't call Legolas by name lest they be sued into the ground.

[Markdoc]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Both. I can (and do) re-read both authors (and I don't re-read most of the stuff I have read).

 

Of the two, there's no question Tolkien was the most influential - Howard's work languished out of print for many years until Tolkien's success kickstarted the modern fantasy genre.

 

Of course, Howard has inspired all too many barbarian pastiches since he was revived, but there's no doubt that without Tolkien, many of would be going "Conan who?"

 

cheers, Mark

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I also like both for different reasons, and Howard died way too young, one often wonders where he would have taken things had he not taken his own life at a young age

 

I will take bad Howard imitators over bad Tolkien imitators any day

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Thinking about Howard's tendency to over-praise the "savage' date='"... However, Howard seemed frequently (throughout his writings, not just in the [i']Conan[/i] stories) to take the view that civilisation is inherently bad, leading only to weakness and degeneration

 

Well, I've read some of Howard's letters - and in them, you get a very different idea of what Howard meant with his 'Barbarism is superior to Civilisation' line. He didn't mean it as praise. To him it was something to despair over, that lawlessness and violence would win out over civilized restraint every time. He regarded both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan as 'barbarian' states, and attacked Lovecraft for defending their actions as 'historically necessary'. He seems to have been firmly convinced that democracy would die in the 20th century and be replaced by fascism and/or communism -- the ultimate triumph of barbarian values over civilized ones.

 

If you can find his poetry, his low opinion of barbarism becomes very obvious. He did argue, however, that someone raised in a barbarian society would be every bit as intelligent and capable as someone from a civilized society, if only because when 'stupidity = death' you either learn very quickly or don't pass your foolishness along to the next generation.

[Greg]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I didn't get back into reading until I found the author Barbara Hambley and her novel Dragonlance. After that for a good decade I just flat out refused to touch anything by a male author - fearing a repeat of what I'd been through with the TSR books...

 

Do you mean her book Dragonsbane? I haven't read anything by her lately, but I went through a phase where I read everything she wrote. If you're forced to read more D&D books Elaine Cunningham is an interesting read. Ignore what the cover says the setting is because she doesn't play D&D and doesn't care to.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I can't tell you which one I like better right now. When I was much younger and read Conan books (and comics) it was easy to say. Then I read Tolkien, and my #1 favorite was found. Then I read a few thousand other books, and reread Tolkien and Howard both.

 

If I had to choose between the two right now I'd say "Howard", because I can read his books and still thrill to the adventure. I'll probably never read Tolkien again because of the movies (not that that's a bad thing!).

 

But my favorite fantasy author right now is probably David Gemmell, who resembles Howard in style much more than he does Tolkien.

 

So...um...what was the question again?

[Old Man]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

The question was, which classic fantasy author do you prefer--Fritz Leiber or Michael Moorcock?

[Vanguard00]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

The question was' date=' which classic fantasy author do you prefer--Fritz Leiber or Michael Moorcock?[/quote']

Oh...well in that case, I like pie.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MitchellS]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

But my favorite fantasy author right now is probably David Gemmell' date=' who resembles Howard in style much more than he does Tolkien.[/quote']

I agree. I'm a huge Gemmell fan and have been for nearly 20 years. I was introduced to his books when Gary Gygax's short-lived New Infinities Productions, Inc. bought the US rights to publish his books here. I have used several of those characters in various Fantasy Hero campaigns since. Good stuff.

[Old Man]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I find Gemmell to be hit-or-miss. I think his later work is much better than the earlier stuff, but I have a hard time figuring out which books got written when in his career.

[starblaze]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

Oh...well in that case, I like pie.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But what kind of pie?

Fruit or cream pie?

[Spence]

Re: Robert E Howard or J.R.R. Tolkien?

 

I find Gemmell to be hit-or-miss. I think his later work is much better than the earlier stuff' date=' but I have a hard time figuring out which books got written when in his career.[/quote']

 

I'll second you on that one. I have the same problem with several authors though. I used to travel extensively and discovered that if the book is published in three different countries, it will have three different covers and writeups. I can't really tell anymore if I have already read it or not. Of course several of my friends do like the free books they get when I score a duplicate.......