Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I like dungeons to be short, sweet and part of the plot.

 

Because face it, half the time we're playing heroes because we wanna act out the Temple Of Doom. Or that could be me.

 

Anyway, a dungeon that manages to fit the plot, it populated correctly and takes maybe a session or less to run through is welcome. Even if that's simply a chase scene through the City Sewers to the Evil Lair to stop a (or the) bad guy.

 

The only reason I liked the movie National Treasure were the fun romps through "dungeons" as actions scenes between the plot (er, half plot). First the ship at the begining, then the catacombs at the end.

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Cool. I love caving too, though I haven't done it in about 6 years. We rapelled down into the main cavern in Whistling Caverns. Big enough to hold the statue of liberty. We also paddled rafts around in the depths of Black Chasm. The second was cooler, because it was a "wild" cave. (ie. undeveloped)

 

Keith "I'd post pictures, but it was before we had a digital camera" Curtis

 

My brother used to do spelunking.

 

I like it because there are more varieties of how to die than any other sport I know of.

 

Starvation, asphyxiation, poisoning, falling, crushing, bleeding to death, drowning - it's an amazing list

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Because face it, half the time we're playing heroes because we wanna act out the Temple Of Doom. Or that could be me.

 

Well, there are two schools of thought on that-

1. The PCs are heroes.
   
2. The PCs aren't heroes. Could be villains, normal tradesmen, priests, soldiers, monsters, farmers, gods, demons, visitors from other dimensions, aliens, time travellers, etc...
   

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

The game that had the best rationale for copius dungeons was Earthdawn.

 

Care to elaborate?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Agreed, there's the nice, generic Freudian explanation. There's also the 'sense of closure' explanation. And, also mentioned (and I only read page 1) the 'they fit on graph paper' explanation. Ultimately we land underground because it's a closed circuit; like its own story arc, there's a beginning, middle & end. We can include NPCs down there, we can forward the story down there, we can force a new character gen by popping someone down there. Multiple options exist 'down there' that don't exist 'up here.' Yay Freud.

 

Where was I? Oh yes. Dungeons. On whether you should or shouldn't play it/enjoy it; the first post specifically made mention that if you don't groove it, that's totally cool. I myself don't groove on that, but that's because my schtick is telling stories. Knowing my audience means that sometimes my stories involve mass combats that threaten their lives, so they wind up improving via XP not because I set them up to earn XP, but because I set them up to possibly get killed; the XP is a result of survival. ;-)

 

I'm also a big proponent of "I get my dungeon hack via my Xbox" - because I'm here to tell a story, or a collection of sub stories, collected under an over-arc. I'm in the process of determining if moving from d20 to Champions is going to be worth it, or even viable. I'm waiting for my copies of HERO 5th (Rev) & Fantasy Hero now. I understand the frustration - the mind numbing, die rolling, "Why am I in this dungeon?" frustration that comes with playing the munchkins. Doesn't mean their game doesn't entertain them, though. If you haven't actually sat down & tried it, you might want to some time. There're worse ways to spend an evening.

 

~DEM

[Chuckg]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Earthdawn occurred right after an invasion of Cthulhoid horrors from another dimension had just finished scourging the planet, in the "arrive, eat everything we see, multiply, repeat step one until we've eaten everybody except each other, eat each other, die of starvation" kinda way.

 

However, since the invasion of the Horrors had been foreseen, civilization survived by building 'Deep Impact' style shelters, and moving into them. And remaining there for a century or two.

 

The game starts, IIRC, a couple centuries after people have moved back out of the damn things, and started rebuilding cities, and gotten agriculture back up again, and etc. (Also, apparently, the Horrors didn't eat the flora, merely the fauna.) But where the shelters used to be? Still there.

[incrdbil]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

 

However, since the invasion of the Horrors had been foreseen, civilization survived by building 'Deep Impact' style shelters, and moving into them. And remaining there for a century or two.

 

The game starts, IIRC, a couple centuries after people have moved back out of the damn things, and started rebuilding cities, and gotten agriculture back up again, and etc. (Also, apparently, the Horrors didn't eat the flora, merely the fauna.) But where the shelters used to be? Still there.

 

To add to the dungeon overstock, several of those undetground cities had flaws, resulting in various Horros penetrating..minor ones sometimes major ones. End result--dead underground city..except for the lurking horrors. some had defenses that didnt falter, but the population turned on itself more various reasons, killing off (or almost killing off) the population. Some cite apranoia and other mental instabilities as why some still refuse to 'open up' and are still lost and sealed. Various other methods of protecting civilization were tried, with varying degrees of success (or outright failure)--so more lost cities.

 

Fascinating game background, and premise (all characters were magic users--either through physical manifestation of abilities or spell users--you could play a mundane with just normal skills, but you would be definitely second rate)..but god, the mechanics...just were a pain. It was the most deliberate attempt to have an utterly perplexing and hard to remember dice mechanic. Everythign progressed in steps, and each new step used a different combination of dice you rolled, with modifiers, for a target number. Step 4 was 1d4+1d3 . Step 5 was 2d4, step 6 was 1d6+1d4, step 7 was 2d6..(IOW, the absolute average of the dice rolled came out to equal the step number..step 11 was 2d10)..I might be wrong on the dice, all sorts of funky combinations were made, especially as steps got higher. And the spell system....gah. It made yearn fondly for the simplicities of Rolemaster in comparison.

 

But if you find the stuff in a bargain bin, it wouldn't be a bad thing to translate to Fantasy Hero. Good background.

[Savinien]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Is there already some sort of translation?

 

Where is Lord Liaden when this sort of Question comes up?

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I've heard good things about Earthdawn. Especially in relation to unknown magic items.

 

"I use it"

GM - smiles knowingly about the consequences : "okaaaay...."

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

My brother used to do spelunking.

 

I like it because there are more varieties of how to die than any other sport I know of.

 

Starvation, asphyxiation, poisoning, falling, crushing, bleeding to death, drowning - it's an amazing list

I like it because it sounds like onomatopoeia, but it's not. ^ v ^

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

If there were more water involved, maybe

[Hisho]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Oh yes, dungeons. Beside the whole freudian thing going on in stories about heroes in general I have sworn to myself that I will use dungeons only in 3 occasions.

 

1. I love the game Arx Fatalis, never played it through but I found the whole stuff a good idea, the whole dungeon-world would be the complete setting, ergo not a traditional dungeon in role-playing terms. If I could just get such a game started. You play in an underground world with your normal fantasyraces and some others. The sun has gone out and all races have built (with the help of the dwarfen race) underground cities. The setting is not bad but I had my problems with the interface and my not-so-hi-end-PC

 

2. In my just-for-fun Tunnels & Trolls game, whoever has read about the worldbackground knows that there is an "perfect" explanation for these dungeons and I use T&T as an beer & bretzel game, so whatever...

(Oh... i should mention that I GM T&T like other people GM Paranoia ; with lot's of fun stuff happening... just for the days when everyone had a rough week)

 

3. otherwise only when the setting gives a good explanation for them to be there... like the Earthdawn-setting... and yeah, the system was more horrible than all the demonic entities in the whole setting

(and this is an quote from one of my players)

or an post-apoc world were people use sub-ways (dungeons) for "safe" travel

[Mr. Negative]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Just on a whim, and because someone mentioned Warhammer in this thread, I do think that Warhammer has an interesting "culture" of dungeons. You have the "civilized" dungeons, which aren't dungeons proper, but the workings of the Dwarfs. Their civilization was almost entirely carved into the rocks of the mountains (not just underground anywhere) and communicated via the Undgrin Angkor (I may have misspelled that, so apologies to any Longbeards). The dwarf civilization is past its peak, and they no longer have some of the knowledge, and not nearly the population, to construct or even repair fully the wonders they created.

 

Then you have the "ruined" dungeons. These are dwarf holds lost to the orcs and goblins, or to the skaven (rat-men). These areas were once majestic, but are now in poor repair. They may connect to the underground passages of the dwarfs. The orcs and goblins don't generally expand much in the "dungeons", but make brutish use of what they find there.

 

And then you have the skaven. The skaven aren't were-rats of any sort. They are an intelligent species created by Chaos corrupting rats (rather than corrupting men into rats). They are violent, cunning, sneaky, and unbelievably numerous. However, they are widely believed to be imaginary. The skaven made use of the Underground Road of the dwarfs to spread, but have created their own "Under-Empire". Their network of tunnels links dwarf-holds, human sewers, basements, mines, etc. The skaven live and breed underground, and use their "dungeons" to remain largely unseen and unheard.

 

Of course, there's very little "high" civilizations miles underground, or anything like that. Even the skaven live relatively close to the surface, and even sometimes, as in "Hell Pit", on the surface of the world. However, the skaven tunnels allow you cool "dungeon" adventures without violating too much logic. You could have mysterious disappearances and strange persons sighted disappearing into the sewers of a large city, such as Altdorf. In exploring those man (or dwarf) made tunnels, you could find tunnels created by the rat-men. Those tunnels, while primitive and treacherous, could connect to the majestic, but empty halls of the Undgrin Angkor, which might lead you to a goblin infestation, or a dwarf expedition.

 

Warhammer and Warhammer Fantasy Role Play have made an effort to have races that have reasonable reasons for living "underground" (or in tunnels in mountains), and have given their civilizations a scope across that world. Their "dungeons" aren't really cheesy or ill-thought out.

 

And the dwarfs both cultivate food above ground, and trade with their human neighbors for food, as well as maintaining a presence on waterways and ports for fish, presumably. No fungus gardens for them. Of course, the skaven, like rats, eat pretty much anything.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I don't have any issues with dungeons as a whole, especially if they've got some real reason for being around, like the Warhammer or Earthdawn ones mentioned.

 

The ones I have a problem with are those where the 10 goblins are living next door to a bulette, and two levels down is a dragon in a 10 by 10 foot room.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I don't have any issues with dungeons as a whole, especially if they've got some real reason for being around, like the Warhammer or Earthdawn ones mentioned.

 

The ones I have a problem with are those where the 10 goblins are living next door to a bulette, and two levels down is a dragon in a 10 by 10 foot room.

Aah, I miss those days....

[Cancer]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

..but god' date=' the mechanics...just were a pain. It was the most deliberate attempt to have an utterly perplexing and hard to remember dice mechanic. Everythign progressed in steps, and each new step used a different combination of dice you rolled, with modifiers, for a target number. Step 4 was 1d4+1d3 . Step 5 was 2d4, step 6 was 1d6+1d4, step 7 was 2d6..(IOW, the absolute average of the dice rolled came out to equal the step number..step 11 was 2d10)..I might be wrong on the dice, all sorts of funky combinations were made, especially as steps got higher. And the spell system....gah. It made yearn fondly for the simplicities of Rolemaster in comparison.[/quote']

 

The dice thing was the result of a design specification: the game was required to use all the common polyhedral dice (it was believed that the "many different dice" would be a positive selling point). From that spec, the designer created that dice-step system so that the modal outcome number advanced by 1 with each step. Given that design requirement (which, I am given to understand, came from the money-making part of the enterprise), it was a pretty ingenious set-up.

 

[FWIW: I was on one of the playtest teams, and I'm acquainted with the designer.]

 

I never tried a spellcaster (though others did, and it seemed OK for them), and we never investigated high-level characters. There have been noises lately about resurrecting that campaign. We'll see if it happens.

 

Also, Earthdawn's world background is the same as Shadowrun's. It's the same world, just different places in time, and in the magic level/Horror infestation cycle. Earthdawn is coming out of a high level; in Shadowrun the world is ramping up into a high level.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Also' date=' Earthdawn's world background is the same as Shadowrun's. It's the same world, just different places in time, and in the magic level/Horror infestation cycle. Earthdawn is coming out of a high level; in Shadowrun the world is ramping up into a high level.[/quote']

Really? I didn't know that. I've seen the name "Earthdawn", but that's really all I knew about it before this thread.

[Chuckg]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

A-yup. Furthermore, several things from Earthdawn *carry into* Shadowrun.

 

Mountainshadow, Loremaster of the Great Dragons, was Dunkelzahn. His brother Icewing is now known as Ghostwalker. (Lofwyr and Hestaby are apparently *not* in the Earthdawn dragon canon, having been born later... or if they were born earlier, nobody knows WTF they were.)

 

Tir Tairngire and Tir Na Nog were both founded by surviving immortal elves (as distinguished from common elves)(1) from the Earthdawn era.

 

And Aztechnology was secretly run by servants of the Horrors.

 

 

 

 

(1) i.e. -- Elves who do *not* have a shapeshifted Great Dragon as a direct ancestor. Basically, one of the Greats done tried to breed himself some long-lived servants, and, well, the other GDs managed to kill *him*, but not quite wipe out the family line. Which is also why a lot of the immortal elves have this huge dragon grudge, and vice versa.

[Old Man]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Earthdawn is the only RPG system I can think of offhand that was so obfuscated I couldn't figure out how to make a character.

[austenandrews]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Huh, I'd always thought Earthdawn was a game world for D&D. Guess not.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Earthdawn is the only RPG system I can think of offhand that was so obfuscated I couldn't figure out how to make a character.

How about Space Opera?

 

Keith "Convert my characteristic percentiles to a 1-20 scale according to the following chart, modified by race?" Curtis

[Cancer]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

TORG had a spell-construction system that was exceedingly cumbersome. That wasn't part of the original game, though; it was in a subsequent sourcebook. It is thanks to TORG, though, that I can point to a real-Earth publication (the Pixaud's Practical Grimoire supplement) and document "Wizard of the Seven Towers" as being something I can put on me resume.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Earthdawn's creation system as convoluted and likely to kill your character before play as Cyberpunk2020's Lifepath?

 

I've never had so many character become so crippled (emotionaly or physically) as with the Lifepath BEFORE I could play them.

[incrdbil]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Earthdawn is the only RPG system I can think of offhand that was so obfuscated I couldn't figure out how to make a character.

 

so, you never tried Avalon Hill's Power and Perils did you?

 

It made my Aftermath characters seem easy.

 

It was sort of like a RPG rulesset made in the spirity of..advanced Squad Leader--except more finicky, less obvious need for it, and no direct bebefit to play. well, none that can be seen. Game was abandoned in struggles to make a character.

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I thought Traveller was the most famous system for killing your character during its creation...