Vanguard Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? I have no reason not to think robots wouldn't be immortal. If you go along the lines that others in the thread have said it's just a game mechanic way of saying "look, if we have the parts and you get proper maintenance, you'll "live" forever". There's really nothing wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? This is a point that's always bothered me as well. Machines just wear out, and in our current era they wear out more quickly than we do. The more complex the machine, the more subject they are to aging -- any computerized device is probably good for 5-10 years at most, not even taking obsolescence into consideration. This number is not likely to do more than double within the lifetime of anyone alive today. In my recently-completed play "Androids Don't Cry," the central character is an android whose initial body has a 10-year guarantee. Shortly before her thirteenth "birthday" she gets an upgrade, including (among other things) a complete data transfer from her decaying computer system to a brand-new one. This becomes the android equivalent of a "whole-body transplant" -- her ultimate age would be limited only by how long her software can keep working smoothly. In game terms, I do establish an aging process for machines in my games and require Life Support versus aging to overcome it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? There could be reasons why robot's or machine intelligences can't be transferred (and thus defining their mortality) - such as quantum computers. Possibly Asimov's Positronics was at the level of quantum computation. If so - it would likely be non-transferrable to a different system. In the case of human brains, the brain grows throughout life, with new pathways created all the time - which is why no brain is like any other (and why I really dislike the magic of psionics that seem to dominate otherwise scientific scifi) - but this could also be the case of non-organic intelligence (again, I don't use the term "artificial intelligence" because that's an oxymoron), that it also grows from a simple system to something so complex it can't be duplicated. As to human immortality - how often do any humans die of old age in scifi roleplaying games anyway? Once or twice per campaign if it is a significant plot point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Asmiov's positronic brains were, IIRC, not down-/up-loadable. They were not replaceable. Keith "going by memory" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Sorry keith, perhaps i didnt express myself correctly... what i meant to imply is, in the movie, we see the character of Robin Williams going from upgrade to upgrade across generations, allowing him to live indefinitely. More to the point, this was something unique to Bicentennial Man The Movie (which only bore a passing resemblance to the story by Asimov). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Asmiov's positronic brains were, IIRC, not down-/up-loadable. They were not replaceable. Keith "going by memory" Curtis Partially Correct. Bicentennial Man is actually the one that addresses this initially. Andrew had his brain transferred surgically, but it was stated that his unique identity was linked to the brain unit, and that alone. However, in Foundation and Earth, which linked the Robots (and the Spacers) into continuity with the Foundation series, we meet the millenially old R. Daneel Olivaw, who transferred his memories from one body and brain to another six times, only to at the end of it hit an engineering barrier of complexity he could not overcome; he'd run out of storage and processing power and could not (this time) design a 'brain' that could do a better job. Of course, the ability to transfer identity was apparently developed several centuries after Earth died and the Spacers disappeared (iirc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Right Bob, that's basically what happens. Or, what I think is happeneing. In all the write-ups I've seen. Robots/Androids/etc have all paid the X number of points for Immortality. The same way a organic character does. If people have a problem with Robots being "immortal" then why doesn't that problem extend to organic life-forms? It's easier to say a non-living, or non-organic entity can live a prolonged life because of the ease at which you can replace/repair the part. It's much harder to say that a soft squishy organic can live through the ages, especially with the ease at which said squishes can be damaged. In a nutshell, I honestly think you'd have the same problem with machine longevity as you would human. There comes a point where you just can't repair/replace anything anymore and you have to just succumb to the fact that you're done. I've read a few series where, while they didn't have immortality for humans, they did have rejuvenation treatments as well as medical technology that could repair/replace just about any damage organ or body part. Problem was, you could only have so many rejuvenation treatments before they just stopped working. Or damaged the cellular stucture to the point where you might end up a pile of bio-organic goo. Same could be said for machines/AI's. After a while, it just becomes impossible to repair/replace, for whatever reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inu Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? If people have a problem with Robots being "immortal" then why doesn't that problem extend to organic life-forms? It's easier to say a non-living' date=' or non-organic entity can live a prolonged life because of the ease at which you can replace/repair the part. [/quote'] Because the original question, and the objection of... well, myself, as I won't speak for the other posters... is not about game mechanics. It's not about 'I hate it when robots are presented as immortal.' It's 'why do writers feel that robots MUST be immortal?' If you prefer a HERO link, then it's 'why is immortality part of the robot package deal?' Or my objection: 'why do even domestic servant bots have to take the robot package deal, which includes not only immortality but +30 strength and +10 dex?' Naturally, there are examples of robots which aren't immortal. And of ones which deserve to be immortal. Data, for instance, is a clear example of super-technology that surpasses normal limitations. But mostly, it's just laziness of behalf of writers - 'This character is a robot. THEREFORE he is immortal.' There is no logic there, only a lack of thought about the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? More to the point' date=' this was something unique to Bicentennial Man The Movie (which only bore a passing resemblance to the story by Asimov).[/quote'] POSSIBLE SPOILER QUESTION FOR BICENTENNIAL MAN, the movie Sorry, again, I haven't seen the movie. Is the character as portrayed by Robin Williams immortal? Is there no final barrier to his continued existence? Keith "Don't worry about spoiling it for me" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Because the original question, and the objection of... well, myself, as I won't speak for the other posters... is not about game mechanics. It's not about 'I hate it when robots are presented as immortal.' It's 'why do writers feel that robots MUST be immortal?' If you prefer a HERO link, then it's 'why is immortality part of the robot package deal?' Or my objection: 'why do even domestic servant bots have to take the robot package deal, which includes not only immortality but +30 strength and +10 dex?' Naturally, there are examples of robots which aren't immortal. And of ones which deserve to be immortal. Data, for instance, is a clear example of super-technology that surpasses normal limitations. But mostly, it's just laziness of behalf of writers - 'This character is a robot. THEREFORE he is immortal.' There is no logic there, only a lack of thought about the subject. OH!! Ok, I get it now. I wasn't fully understanding the question, as you so hopefully corrected. I don't know why writers feel that robots should be immortal. Maybe because, at least the current ones, see things like Data and go "well, he's a robot, and he's immortal" and go from there. More to the point, probably, is they are using "dramatic license" and saying "Make it thus" and it was. As for the hero link analogy, I would think it's more just a mater of perception, not neccessarily (sp) them being lazy just them thinking "Well, it's a robot, it should be stranger/faster then a normal human" and not taking the time to think "but would someone *really* build a serving droid that could lift a truck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrojas Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Keith, SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER Select the text to read post. ---------------------------------------- The character played by Robin Williams manages to die in the end, but only because he choosed to, there was a point where he began replacing standard machinery with cutting edge stuff that could simulate living organs, and so it decayed/grew old as a normal human... --------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Actually, what surprises me is that in sci stories that take place in the future that humans aren't immortal. If there are scientist smart enough to create machines with sentient thought then there should be scientist smart enough to stop the aging process. Plus, I can tell you right now there would be a bigger push for that than making your iPod tell you, that you have horrible taste in music. Most sci-fi writers have a great deal of difficulty dealing with the social consequences of true human immortality. particularly the fact that there is no way to ever make it cheap enough to be available to the entire human race. The assumes it's even theoretically possible, which is doubtful. There may be a certain point in human aging where Alzhiemer's Disease or the equivalent becomes utterly inevitable. We were not hard-wired to live forever -- it makes no evolutionary sense. On the contrary, immortality = little or no reason to have children = complete genetic stagnation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? More realistic, harder (or gritier) SF stories tend to have robots built of believable material that actually do require repain and break down (ie most SciFi before the Next Generation). High Tech, Super Tech etc.. levels of materials science always seem to have immortal robotics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? TV and Movie robots are usually immortal. Because TV and Movies are stoopid. Keith "Just kidding, TV and Movies. I really like you. I really do." Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? R2D2 was immortal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? It survived all 6 movies, which is more than I can say for most of the fans.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? It survived all 6 movies' date=' which is more than I can say for most of the fans....[/quote'] Or Lucas' reputation as a good storyteller! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inu Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? It survived all 6 movies' date=' which is more than I can say for most of the fans....[/quote'] Which was really only a 30-40 year gap. Anakin seemed to be aging inside the Darth Vader suit, and he was still alive, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Squirrel Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Or Lucas' reputation as a good storyteller! My vision of Lucas has turned to this guy wearing a top hat with a long, curly moustache that ties women to train tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? They said Data's brain was positronic, whatever that means, other than magic. Good point about the possiblity of eventual part replacement. It has good traction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? It has good traction? That's PosiTrac, not PosiTronic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Of course, there's always this: "Falling apart again, What am I to do? These threads take metric screws No one stocks them" --sung by an android that is literally falling apart while performing in the John M. Ford Star Trek novel, How Much For Just The Planet? In the writeup for a Star Hero miniseries that I never ran, I had envisioned AI characters that would be purpose-built for certain skill sets. The core AI module was standardized to fit within different shells, so that an AI of a given type could be plugged into the body that was needed at the time. Looking back at my notes, the AIs were given an immunity to aging, though this is something that would not have come up within the course of the game. If I were to set it up today, I'd most likely leave that bit off, since the reason for using the AIs in the first place was to do jobs too dangerous for humans. Echoing Keith Curtis' comments about data portability, this file originated on a 286 computer running dos 4.01 and WordPerfect 5.1 in March of 1991. It has traveled through a variety of storage devices through several upgrades of the original system (including, at various times, the motherboard, hard drive, operating system and case--this is my Grandfather's Axe), migrated to a Windows 98 Celeron box (where it lived on various hard drives), jumped again to a P4 system (once again, being shuffled to various drives), only to be found and opened again on a new Pentium D system. Of course, in that time, the careful formatting has been mangled slightly by the new programs that open it, so one would have to wonder about the fate of an AI also upgraded. Would they just lose a memory of what happened at a certain time in the past, or would they lose a bit of their personality? JoeG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Actually, what surprises me is that in sci stories that take place in the future that humans aren't immortal. Pipirupirupipirupiiiiii! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Logue Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Just look at Ultron (or Mechanon) as an example of the immortal robot. I don't know his current disposition, but when I stopped reading comics in the early 90's, Ultron had gone through 12 continually-improved models, but he was still Ultron. Not to mention Ultron Mk 13, or just "Mark" as he liked to be called. He was also Ultron, just a kinder, gentler Ultron who came to love dear old dad. I personally wouldn't have a problem with immortal robots if they have the proper rationale. But mechanical and silicoidal parts do wear out. If not replaced, the robot or AI or what have you does have a shelf-life. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Re: Why are robots always immortal? Reading some of the bits in Star Hero got me thinking about this a bit... In a posteconomic high tech society, I can see the reasoniong behind semi-immortal robots... I mean, no need for planned obsolescence, no need to skimp on materials, skills are at a premium as one of the few truely vauable things in the society, and science is a craft and art as much as a discipline... So making something to last as long as possible might make sense. just ramblin' here... move along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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