Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

[Brick]

One of my players wants to create a master of magnetism. No problem in creating that. However, one of his arguments is: Even if my opponent does not wear powered armor or something alike that I can use my magnetokinesis on, he is sure to wear a watch or a belt that I can manipulate. I cannot simply ignore that point, but the thought of NPCs being tossed away just because of these small items does not feel right. Wouldn't these things just snap under the sudden appliance of enormous pressure? Any thoughts on that, anyone?

 

Also, there is the point of the fictional super-metals in the Champions Universe. Which one, in your opinion, would be considered "ferrous" (susceptible to magnetic powers)?

[mikesama]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

More than likely yes any small metal object connected to fabric will most likely tear itself off if subjected to super strength TK. The only article of clothing I can see that would be troublesome would be steel toed boots st they are useally quite sturdy and you'd more or less be lifting them up by thier feet.

 

As far as super metals I'd assume they were all magnetic with the exception of Destrium and ... (can't remmber the other material) Of course some armor will be made of plastics or ceramics and he won't be able to do sqaut to them..

[assault]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

Well, your campaign's super metals behave the way you want them to! Just try and be consistent.

 

In general, my standard routine with magnetic powers is for the character to carry around a quantity of iron filings, ball bearings or whatever. Basically, the character uses the magnetic powers to manipulate them, and they act as the character's hands. Or as the character's bullets...

 

If that isn't sufficient, the character should start picking up bits of the scenery and throwing it around. An opponent can be as non-magnetic as they like and still get pummelled into the dirt by that tank you are using as a hammer.

 

Magnetic powers rock.

[levi]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

This player's perception is probably inspired by Magneto who has evolved over the decades from simple Magnetic Control to Energy Control. If you are running a more realistic campaign (I always laugh when we use "realistic" in a discussion about Superheroes) Magnetism is an effect generated by electro-magnetism (other EM waves include light, sound, microwaves, radio waves, x-rays, cosmic rays, gamma rays, etc.) and as such could evolve into a broader use.

 

That said, if you are defining his powers as strictly the ability to manipulate ferrous metals, then he should be getting a decent Power Limitation (maybe -1/2). Remember also that the human body contains Iron which is a ferrous metal and removing it the way Magneto removes the injected iron from the guard in X2 would require the Fine Manipulation Adder. Also in that movie Magneto seems to be able to Detect ferrous metals which might be a good power for your player to invest in. This way he can make a PER Roll to find ferrous metals and you can avoid arguements mid-game about what he can or cannot effect with his Magnetokinesis.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

If the player is going to want to lift a man by a wristwatch or some similarly small quantity of metal, it may be better to simply give him normal TK with no limitations attached to it. The SFX would simply be that he's manipulating electromagnetic fields.

 

If you are going to give him the points break for only affecting ferrous metals (which is typically a -1/2 for TK) then it needs to be appropriatly limiting.

[Starlord]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

To be piggyback on the 'wristwatch example', I have a friend who was in a fender bender that released his airbag. The force with which the airbag deployed was enough to rip the metal wristwatch right off his wrist. I would imagine this would be comparable to the energy needed to yank a full grown human off the ground. I doubt you could hurl a person, but it is possible to break a wrist or arm I suppose.

 

How about a belt buckle?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

If you are going to give him the points break for only affecting ferrous metals (which is typically a -1/2 for TK) then it needs to be appropriatly limiting.

 

I think this is the real key. The player should define what his power can, and cannot, affect. If having a belt bukcle, a wristwatch or iron in yur bloodstream is sufficient, the limitation should be considerably lower than for a character who can only affect someone sheathed in ferrous metal.

 

If the character will carry large amounts of ferrous metals (so he always has a projectile to throw, or something to allow his TK to lift non-ferrous objects), the limitation will come into play less frequently, and should save less points. On a painful note, are any of the materials used it tooth fillings or bone pins ferrous? That could be very painful...

 

Note that Magneto's costume has been established as being metallic, or laced with metallic fibres. He was able to break a bear hug from Hercules by flexing out his cloak. [see, those voluminous cloaks DO have a purpose!] He also seems to be able to injure a target wearing no metal by his magnetic EB, which I would suggest is not really limited at all. [At least his ability to control minds by using iron in the bloodstream to manipulate the flow of blood to his targets' brains was forgotten after its one appearance ] I don't think Magneto is highly limited.

 

As to the "supermetals", Adamantium in Marvel is certanly affected by magnetism, as is Cap's shield, so it seems reasonable for a player to expect most supermetals will be affected by magnetism. If only the rarest opponent will be affected, maybe the limitation should be increased.

 

BTW, magnetism always seems to be a power of the villain (Magneto, Dr. Polaris), in large part because it's best suited for characters who decide where they will fight their battles. Heroes need to be effective in a wide array of settings.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

I think this is the real key. The player should define what his power can, and cannot, affect. If having a belt bukcle, a wristwatch or iron in yur bloodstream is sufficient, the limitation should be considerably lower than for a character who can only affect someone sheathed in ferrous metal.

 

If the character will carry large amounts of ferrous metals (so he always has a projectile to throw, or something to allow his TK to lift non-ferrous objects), the limitation will come into play less frequently, and should save less points. On a painful note, are any of the materials used it tooth fillings or bone pins ferrous? That could be very painful...

 

Note that Magneto's costume has been established as being metallic, or laced with metallic fibres. He was able to break a bear hug from Hercules by flexing out his cloak. [see, those voluminous cloaks DO have a purpose!] He also seems to be able to injure a target wearing no metal by his magnetic EB, which I would suggest is not really limited at all. [At least his ability to control minds by using iron in the bloodstream to manipulate the flow of blood to his targets' brains was forgotten after its one appearance ] I don't think Magneto is highly limited.

 

As to the "supermetals", Adamantium in Marvel is certanly affected by magnetism, as is Cap's shield, so it seems reasonable for a player to expect most supermetals will be affected by magnetism. If only the rarest opponent will be affected, maybe the limitation should be increased.

 

BTW, magnetism always seems to be a power of the villain (Magneto, Dr. Polaris), in large part because it's best suited for characters who decide where they will fight their battles. Heroes need to be effective in a wide array of settings.

 

Good points, all.

The magnetic character in my wife's game has a limitation on his TK and his RKA that they only work on ferrous metals, but his EB and AP EB don't (one's just magnetic force, the other is the barrage of magnetically-propelled shrapnel).

 

To digress a bit, I can actually think of more magnetically-powered heroes than villains (Cosmic Boy, Magnetic Kid, Polaris (Lorna Dane)) ... with the way the modern world is set up (not to mention the prevalence of people whose only superpower is a gun), magnetism really is useable in almost any circumstance.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

Regarding CU supermetals and references to them in Champions Universe, Kendrium is explicitly described as "high-grade titanium steel with certain chemicals and other substances" (CU p. 57), so that certainly qualifies as "ferrous." Questionite's description makes it sound like a unique naturally-occurring metal, probably its own element, so I would say that magnetism need not affect it. Neutronium may or may not be "dead star material," but either way because of its high density it's probably not ferrous.

 

Destreum is "a super-strong alloy that he [Dr. Destroyer] invented" (Conquerors, Killers And Crooks p. 8), but what it's an alloy of isn't specified, so that would be a judgement call. OTOH when Destreum was first mentioned, in the Fourth Edition adventure Day of the Destroyer, it was specifically referred to as "destreum steel."

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

Well, I was going to say that I agreed with everyone else -- if he can affect someone because of an ounce or so of ferrous metal on them, that really isn't much of a limit, so he probably shouldn't get one (rather like the most powerful incarnation of Magneto seems to freely affect things usually considered non-magnetic); a powerful enough, dense enough, or focused enough magnetic field will, as far as we know, affect anything (after all, even electrically neutral subatomic particles like neutrons do have a magnetic moment -- it's just very, very weak).

 

On the other hand, it occured to me you could build his TK as a Partially Limited Power. In other words, something like this:

 

Magnetic Manipulation: 20 STR TK, Fine Manipulation, Affects Porous plus +55 STR TK, Only vs. Magnetic or Ferrous Materials (-1/2)

 

That would let him affect anything with his 'magnetic' manipulation, just not very strongly, while against an actual ferrous object, he'd be at 75 STR.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

A lot of these things should be handled as special effects, IMO. If the player has an EB or a RKA that is designated as magnetic force the GM and the player have to come up with plausible rubber/comic book science explanations for the damage.

 

Is the magnetic field inducing a disruptive current across the target's nervous system? Is it true that magnetic fields affect the flow of blood in the body, as claimed by all those infommercial guys selling bracelets and insoles? If I blast someone with my magnetic force blast, and he is not wearing any metal, why is he knocked back? I never really got that, but it is in genre.

 

For a wrist watch, can't I say that you whipped the guy's arm around so fast that you dislocated it just before his watch strap broke? For a belt buckle, can't I say that you pushed the small metal mass back into his abdomen with such sudden force that it was the equivalent of a solid body blow by a trained boxer? I wouldn't allow the player to lift and carry someone by a watch or a belt buckle, but they might might be able to do some clever things that allow them to apply the EB/RKA damage.

 

Let's face it that whole "iron in the blood" thing is fairly ridiculous when you look at, but it is a simulation of a comic book, so what do you expect? I say just make it fun, and have an early argeement that sometimes what you want to do will not work 100% of the time, or at all.

[Starlord]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

He was able to break a bear hug from Hercules by flexing out his cloak. [see' date= those voluminous cloaks DO have a purpose!]

 

I seem to remember this being a nifty trick but now that I think about it, it really shouldn't work (yes I know, pretty much anything could work in the comics ). Magneto's powers are probably greater even than the strength of Hercules, but the 'metal' in the cloak still wouldn't have resisted Herc's strength. Essentially Magneto's control versus Herc's strength should shred the cape. The metal in the cape would have to have been adamantium or some other metal that Herc couldn't break.

[Starlord]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

Is the magnetic field inducing a disruptive current across the target's nervous system? Is it true that magnetic fields affect the flow of blood in the body' date=' as claimed by all those infommercial guys selling bracelets and insoles? If I blast someone with my magnetic force blast, and he is not wearing any metal, why is he knocked back? I never really got that, but it is in genre. [/quote']

 

Magneto can sometimes be a bad comparison as he seems to have developed his powers into control over other fields of energy, but to be at least somewhat realistic you shouldn't have 'magnetic force blasts' or even 'magnetic force fields' for magnetic characters. However, it can easily be changed to metal objects slamming into someone or the character maintaining a shield of metal that he can effortlessly will to block attacks.

 

Definitely agree with others that magnetism that can affect the nervous system or blood flow shouldn't be given a limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

I seem to remember this being a nifty trick but now that I think about it' date=' it really shouldn't work (yes I know, pretty much anything could work in the comics ). Magneto's powers are probably greater even than the strength of Hercules, but the 'metal' in the cloak still wouldn't have resisted Herc's strength. Essentially Magneto's control versus Herc's strength should shred the cape. The metal in the cape would have to have been adamantium or some other metal that Herc couldn't break.[/quote']

 

Does it matter if the metal breaks? I think this only works, however, if we accept that all the fibers making up the cape have a metalic content. That said, Mags' costume was shown to be entirely metallic particles in (IIRC) X-Men #150, some time prior to the Hercules incident.

[Adventus]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

To be piggyback on the 'wristwatch example', I have a friend who was in a fender bender that released his airbag. The force with which the airbag deployed was enough to rip the metal wristwatch right off his wrist. I would imagine this would be comparable to the energy needed to yank a full grown human off the ground. I doubt you could hurl a person, but it is possible to break a wrist or arm I suppose.

If you have your arm diagonally across the steering wheel and the airbag deploys, it will break both bones in your arm and still fully expand. It will do it so fast you won't even feel any pain. a 0stun attack.

[Pogo]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

[ lots of stuff I agree with, but would have said much more poorly deleted]

 

Is the magnetic field inducing a disruptive current across the target's nervous system? Is it true that magnetic fields affect the flow of blood in the body, as claimed by all those infommercial guys selling bracelets and insoles? If I blast someone with my magnetic force blast, and he is not wearing any metal, why is he knocked back? I never really got that, but it is in genre.

 

In order: maybe, no friggin' way, and diamagnetism/paramagnetism.

 

Nerve impules are mostly chemical, so a magnetic field strong enough to scramble them would be very, very strong. One might even say it would be at the comic book physics level

 

The magnetic bracelets and insoles are useless in the real world. At 37 C the effective magnetic moment of hemoglobin is close to zero, and red blood cell motion will be determined by fluid mechanics.

 

It is possible to suspend a frog above a magnet because frogs are diamagnetic, like most things. Diamagnetic materials act to repel incoming magnetic fields by setting up their own. It's a very weak effect, but we're doing the comic book physics thing again.

[levi]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

... it occured to me you could build his TK as a Partially Limited Power. In other words, something like this:

 

Magnetic Manipulation: 20 STR TK, Fine Manipulation, Affects Porous plus +55 STR TK, Only vs. Magnetic or Ferrous Materials (-1/2)

 

That would let him affect anything with his 'magnetic' manipulation, just not very strongly, while against an actual ferrous object, he'd be at 75 STR.

 

I second this suggestion, thanks for the pearl Doc!

[Superskrull]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

I seem to remember this being a nifty trick but now that I think about it' date=' it really shouldn't work (yes I know, pretty much anything could work in the comics ). Magneto's powers are probably greater even than the strength of Hercules, but the 'metal' in the cloak still wouldn't have resisted Herc's strength. Essentially Magneto's control versus Herc's strength should shred the cape. The metal in the cape would have to have been adamantium or some other metal that Herc couldn't break.[/quote']

 

If for no other reason than since he is also an Avenger, Iron Man's armor was, for the longest time a metallic steel mesh hardened beyond belief by a magnetic field. Considering this is the same world-frame, it's obviously the same principle of 'science' at work here.

 

Fortunately, Magneto's costume, unlike the rest of his abilities has almost always been made of steel mesh. Lets him do those stylish tricks like emag levitate and form his costume around himself from across the room.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

if you're willing to take a special effect to a rediculous extreme, there isn't much reason magnetism can't affect everything.

 

I mean, frankly, the reason why my cup is sitting on top of the table to my left is because the electrons in the atoms that comprise the cup and the electrons in the atoms that comprise the table are repelling eachother with enough force to keep them from interpenetrating, even though the actual volume that composes both 'solid' objects is 99% empty space.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

I seem to recall reading that a strong enough magnetic field could ionize atmosphere, and that said ions could be magnetically manipulated. Any truth to this, or am I delusional? (I mean, about this issue specifically.)

[proditor]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

Wait a sec...

 

Kendrium is questionable if we're working from its Titanium beginnings, as Titanium is only very weakly paramagnetic at best. It generally seems to be classed as non-ferrous.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium

http://www.tifac.org.in/do/spec/nonferti.htm

http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article36.htm

[Karma]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

Always, Always be weary of the 'Magneto can do it so so can I' argument.

 

The ultimate 'abuse' of Magnetism powers that Magneto has come up with is controlling the iron in a person's blood to render them unconscious or turn off their powers (which is how he managed to have a child with Rogue in AoA).

 

As for the 'pick hi up by his belt buckle/wristwatch argument, Id say either tear them off or (in the case of supervillians) say 'You try that, but unfortunately he's not wearing a beltbuckle under his 'spandex' costume, would you like to try for his watch? (and always make sure you ask what he's attempting to grab).

Also once he gets a rep as a master of magnetism the market for non-ferrous metals and plastic (especially metal coloured plastic) is going to improve amoung the scum and villiany of the campaign city.

 

Also I'm unsure whether lead is a ferrous metal, if not matsters of magetism cannot stop it with a 'Magnetic forcefield'

[LoresLost]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

Also I'm unsure whether lead is a ferrous metal' date=' if not matsters of magetism cannot stop it with a 'Magnetic forcefield'[/quote']

 

And

 

Titanium is only very weakly paramagnetic at best. It generally seems to be classed as non-ferrous.

 

If I remember correctly Iron, Cobalt and Nickel are the ferrous Metals as this chart statesl It gives ratings to at diamagnitic and paramagnitic inorganics as well. It might be intresting to use these charts for magnitic effect ratings.

[Bunyip]

Re: Magnetism: Abuse And Super Metals

 

Picking up on other points, I can recall some abusive or just plain nasty usages of his power by Cosmic Boy of the LSH... In one issue he was able to fly without the Legion flight ring by manipulating the Earth's magnetic field around himself, and in the same issue emulated the stunt by Magneto (referred to earlier here) of causing blackouts or death by controlling the haemoglobin in his captive's blood (or at least threatening to). And way back in the infamous Adult Legion story of the '60s, Cosmic Man caused someone to pass out by using his power on the weakly paramagnetic oxygen and nitrogen molecules in the air around him. ('60s stories seemed to be dotted with stuff like that - remember the little nuggets of science that Barry Allen came up with as 'Flash Facts'?)