Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists IIRC, Stick has beaten both Wolverine and Elektra like they were rented mules. (One at a time.) We're talking like watching a Green Beret pound on crippled infants, not an actual fight. So yes, Stick is *way* up there. WAY up there, unfortunately he's pretty much a background character (even moreso than Mantis). I really don't think we can use such third-rate characters to make a proper list. Just a lot of 'hazyness' with certain characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Captain America--I know he studied judo' date=' boxing and wrestling during WW2, I'm not really aware when he found the time to study the other dozen arts he seems to know.[/quote'] Cap knows Jeet Cap Do. Ok seriously, Cap doesn't necessarily have a style, all the great fighters have commented that Cap has his own style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Slade "Deathstroke" Wilson is metahumanly strong and fast. Not *as* fast or *as* strong as Spidey' date=' but definitely above the 'peak human' Cap level.[/quote'] I disagree about the metahuman part ... I've never seen him lift a car nor dodge bullets. I would say he's peak in both, with some training. Not really all that different from Cap. He also recently picked up an almost Deadpool-level healing factor' date=' so he's DQ'ed anyway.[/quote'] That I'll agree with ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchine Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Just checked the Marvel Universe: Avengers 2004 with Cap in it ... I'll grant you that he knows a few martial arts ... but' date=' personally, I don't see him in the top 5. Maybe around 7 .. but there are others that I think are more trained and have a higher skill in their abilities. And no it's not because he's "white and not obsessed with East Asian philosophy" I just don't see it in the comics I've read him in ... and I've read quite a bit.[/quote'] The comics I have read him in. He is easily #1. Cap is easily what others strive to be. He is considered and shown to be Marvels Best Human Fighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists I disallowed Deathstroke in the DC thread because everyone in the "Worst Fight Thread" explained he was Spiderman level physically. If he was "merely" human perfection I'd have had no trouble. This is my problem with Wolverine's inclusion. Granted I stopped reading the character when he broke out of the "Surly Lieutenant" role in the X-Men. But between his enhanced mutant senses, claws, indestructable bones and insane healing factor, I have a hard time imagining that his "pure" martial arts skills are quite so honed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists I just don't see it. Sure' date=' he's a good fighter ... he even made my list. But I just don't see him that high up. If that's the case, there should be several others that should hit the list like Hawkeye (who was trained by Cap), US Agent (who has most of the same training) and Tony Stark (who's trained with Cap).[/quote'] :confused: You REAALLY have not seen much of Cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists The comics I have read him in. He is easily #1. Cap is easily what others strive to be. He is considered and shown to be Marvels Best Human Fighter. Flat-out, and this is not Cap fanboyism, anyone who picks all, some, or one of the well-known Marvel MAs (Iron Fist, Daredevil, Electra, Black Panther, Punisher, etc.) above Cap...you're just wrong. Sorry. Cap has beaten all of these guys more than once, and they all pretty much admit he's the best. It's all out there if someone cares enough to do the research. Shang-Chi I will consider enough of a major character to put him on par with Cap, particularly since they faced each other only once and they seemed to acknowledge each other as equals. I don't count Mantis, Karnak, and Stick. They are obscure characters with 'foggy' ability ranges. I'd consider Mantis to be superhuman anyway (she's also has a 1-1 record v. Cap) since she once just 'thought' about healing herself and it was done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Captain America is losing ground to Shang Chi each ballot it seems (sorry Hermit) No worries. I am quite content with Cap being Numero Uno in the team leader/tactician position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists This is my problem with Wolverine's inclusion. Granted I stopped reading the character when he broke out of the "Surly Lieutenant" role in the X-Men. But between his enhanced mutant senses' date=' claws, indestructable bones and insane healing factor, I have a hard time imagining that his "pure" martial arts skills are quite so honed.[/quote'] I definitely count Wolverine as 'superhuman', but who knows how in-depth to go really. Honestly, from an 'endurance' standpoint Cap definitely has an unfair advantage as well. He simply does not get tired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Just checked the Marvel Universe: Avengers 2004 with Cap in it ... I'll grant you that he knows a few martial arts ... but' date=' personally, I don't see him in the top 5. Maybe around 7 .. but there are others that I think are more trained and have a higher skill in their abilities. And no it's not because he's "white and not obsessed with East Asian philosophy" I just don't see it in the comics I've read him in ... and I've read quite a bit.[/quote'] On top of every other thing I've said, Cap's Marvel Bio has consistently (there's been many different incarnations of the Bio pages) rated his 'Fighting Skills' (not strength or speed) at the highest level there is, while in comparison someone like Iron Fist is rated a notch below. I could see arguments for him not being number one, but #7 is laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Slade "Deathstroke" Wilson is metahumanly strong and fast. Not *as* fast or *as* strong as Spidey, but definitely above the 'peak human' Cap level. He also recently picked up an almost Deadpool-level healing factor, so he's DQ'ed anyway. My DC knowledge is nowhere near as good as my Marvel, but I've seen him fight the Titans, Robin/Nightwing, and Batman, and in these cases he was pretty much regarded as stronger and faster than human. Nightwing considered him scary strong, but he didn't seem to have Spider-Man level strength as you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Sorry. Cap has beaten all of these guys more than once' date=' and they all pretty much admit he's the best. It's all out there if someone cares enough to do the research.[/quote'] Actually, Cap has never beaten Iron Fist. I know, I've read the issue where Iron Fist busts into Avengers Mansion. Cap *drew even* with Iron Fist, on a day where, immediately before his walking into Avengers Mansion and being mistaken for a villain, Iron Fist had: * gone three rounds with the entire Wrecking Crew * entered a mystical contest of wills with Karnilla the Norn Queen * had just finished shielding Jarvis from multiple impacts with his own body, thus helping Jarvis be only unconscious, and not dead. And *then* IF has to go around with Cap (who walked in at the exact wrong moment, and was under the mistaken impression that Iron Fist is the one who'd just downed Jarvis, and that Jarvis was dead). And they broke even. And this is with Cap holding nothing back (he thought he was going up against Jarvis' murderer), and Iron Fist *was* holding back (as Cap himself specifically commented at one point in the fight -- "I get the feeling he could have hit me even harder."). So, on a day when Iron Fist is already exhausted and has gone through a lineup of heavy hitters, *and* he's holding back, a Captain America who is holding *nothing* back... ... can break even with him. (And that's with having the Mighty Shield vs. Danny's bare hands. If Cap had fought Iron Fist mano-a-mano, he'd be toast... as Daniel would have landed at least one solid hit with the Iron Fist had Cap not had the shield to block, and unless you're a solid brick and/or wrapped in vibranium armor, one solid hit with the IF is all it takes.) This would mean that at full performance, IF would logically be above him, yes? (And given that Iron Fist has held even with Spider-Man, casually thrown Wolverine around like a handball, and a similarily long list of impressive feats, this is not implausible to me.) Iron Fist is, if not to quite so ridiculous a level, the Val Armorr of the Marvel Universe. Via chi control and exotic training, he does things that would require major-league metahumanness for anyone else. (Such as casually punching steel girders in half *WITHOUT* charging up the Iron Fist, for example.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Actually' date=' Cap has never beaten Iron Fist. [/quote'] Simply put Chuck, this is flat-out bull. I've read the frickin' issue where Luke Cage stood aside and Cap beat Fist with Falcon also looking on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Apparently, somebody's too good to simply say 'I think you missed issue # such-and-such.' Nope, gotta jump straight to calling other people liars (well, OK, you *merely* said that I was trying to pass off "flat-out bull" on the audience... oh, wait, there's no real difference.) *snorts* And people say *I'm* rude. PS -- issue #? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Iron Fist is' date=' if not to quite so ridiculous a level, the Val Armorr of the Marvel Universe. Via chi control and exotic training, he does things that would require major-league metahumanness for anyone else. (Such as casually punching steel girders in half *WITHOUT* charging up the Iron Fist, for example.)[/quote'] Seems you've read a great deal more Iron Fist than me, the 20-30 or so stories I've read with him in them don't give him this much power, Marvel doesn't seem to 'officially' agree with you, and were this to be his typical abilities then he's clearly superhuman and off the list anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists He did get punked by Rom once--who just neutralized his Iron Fist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists > Seems you've read a great deal more Iron Fist than me, Which in a rational universe would mean that I'd be accepted as knowing more about Iron Fist's genuine power levels, feats, and history than you. Might I recommend the ESSENTIAL IRON FIST collection if you'd like to see more? > the 20-30 or so stories I've read with him in them don't give him this much > power, Marvel doesn't seem to 'officially' agree with you, [snip] The OHOTMU is not officially binding on anything (let alone being at least 20 years out of date!), and the fact that you admit to an incomplete knowledge of Iron Fist means only that you have an incomplete knowledge of Iron Fist. > and were this to be his typical abilities then he's clearly superhuman and off > the list anyway. Hey, people like Batgirl and Lady Shiva were still on the DC list, and they can punch holes in brick walls and move faster than bullets. Val Armorr was excluded only because he was not from the 20th century of the DCU, not because he was metahuman. Not to mention that people like Stick are on the Marvel list, and Stick has such truly obnoxious chi control that he can use it, among other things, to raise the dead. (Not to mention Mantis having alien pressure point attacks that can temporarily immobilize Thor and Wonder Man, etc.) Iron Fist's meta stats all derive from his super-duper extra-dimensional (K'un Lun is in another dimension, remember) martial arts training, and so he qualifies, methinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists He did get punked by Rom once--who just neutralized his Iron Fist... Rom? The guy with a magic "turn energy powers off" gun? The guy with a cyborg exoskeleton that can take hits from the Thing? That Rom? I can kinda figure out how Danny Rand would be kinda screwed against Rom if a) the only thing he has that can hope to dent the robot shell is the Iron Fist and his opponent possesses a gizmo with which to Suppress his Iron Fist multipower slot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Apparently, somebody's too good to simply say 'I think you missed issue # such-and-such.' Nope, gotta jump straight to calling other people liars (well, OK, you *merely* said that I was trying to pass off "flat-out bull" on the audience... oh, wait, there's no real difference.) *snorts* And people say *I'm* rude. PS -- issue #? Oh, c'mon! Try rereading the statement of yours I quoted again, Chuck. Pot-Kettle, dude, except you started it. Unless you've read every appearance of Captain America and Iron Fist that's ever existed and remember them clearly, then try not making such all-or-nothing statements. PS -- I don't know the issue number. Captain America, Vol 1, is the best I've got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Oh' date=' c'mon! Try rereading the statement of yours I quoted again, Chuck.[/quote'] What, you mean "Actually, Cap has never beaten Iron Fist."? That statement? Pot, kettle, my ***. The one is 'I think you're wrong.' The other is 'I think you're lying.' If you cannot see the difference between the two, then you need to grow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Poor, unloved Iron Fist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists The OHOTMU is not officially binding on anything (let alone being at least 20 years out of date!)' date=' and the fact that you admit to an incomplete knowledge of Iron Fist means only that you have an incomplete knowledge of Iron Fist.[/quote'] Who said OHOTMU? Man that's kinda insulting that you'd think I'd base any opinion off that dreck. http://www.marvel.com/universe/index.htm Look at IF's fighting skills and Cap's fighting skills. This 'current' enough for you? Like I said, 'officially', Marvel doesn't seem to agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists I think Marvel always touted Shang-Chi as being "the world's formost master of martial arts." While at the same time it was said that Captian America was "the world's formost hand to hand combatant." So I'd rate Captian America #1 and Shang-Chi #2. I am not going to hazard a guess beyond that point. I stopped reading comic books around 1985 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Actually, no, it's not official enough for me. I accept no guidebooks, handbooks, compilations, websites, or other such fluff. I go by what is in the comics themselves, as those are primary canon, and all others are secondary canon at best. Or to put it in plainer English -- if the index contradicts the actual page content, the page content wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists What, you mean "Actually, Cap has never beaten Iron Fist."? That statement? Pot, kettle, my ***. The one is 'I think you're wrong.' The other is 'I think you're lying.' If you cannot see the difference between the two, then you need to grow up. This is the stupidest statement I've ever seen you make. Seriously. There's a part of me that thinks you want to take it back. "Actually, Cap has never beaten Iron Fist." Is not an opinion, it is declarative (obviously). Don't go martyr on me this quickly, dude. At least go straight up with me for a little while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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