Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

[stan da ork]

Okay, a comment in another thread got me thinking...

 

We've already got a proliferation of RPG systems on the market. I'm not talking games here, I'm talking rules. Many of the systems are at least attempting to be universal, and more are headed that way. Off the top of my head, I can come up with:

 

HERO

GURPS

d20

Silhouette

World of Darkness (to a point)

FUDGE

The Window

and some more esoteric free ones...

 

Anyway, when I take a stroll down the aisle of my FLGS, I notice tons of books from small companies with what look to be interesting settings and ideas. What stops me from picking up said books is they usually come packaged with their own rules. Which, of course, means that picking up the product means I will probably need to dig through these new rules and figure them out. I'm also being charged for these new rules, whether or not I like them.

 

Back in the day, there was this nifty gaming rag called Shadis. In its heyday, it was marvelous. Most of the content focused on rules-neutral ideas. It might contain lots of nifty NPCs, an adventure, vehicles or equipment, a description of the culture of a fantastic race, or any number of other things. None of this content had any game-specific rules in it whatsoever.

 

What if small gaming companies started heading down this road? What if instead of a bunch of rules, they focused on developing an interesting new fantasy world, and spend the entire book on that, leaving the rules out and letting the players tailor the setting to whatever rules they like? Do you think this would help breathe new life into the RPG industry? Would people be more likely to buy these "Setting Books," if you will, than entirely new RPGs with new rules?

 

Just food for thought...

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

No, for one reason only: the realm of possibility.

 

Just because we have yet to conceive of The One True Way to Roleplay doesn't mean that someone can't piggyback off the current zeitgeist and solve the puzzle.

 

Meanwhile, I'm interested to see what people come up with.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

Hmm... a setting book without any game stats is rather like a novel. Or an encyclopedia. Ultimately it's the ability to frame a setting within some kind of game mechanic that sets it apart from those other media. Other media are a tremendous source of ideas and inspiration for games, which is probably why so many companies license those properties to be able to do just that. If all we really wanted was the source material, which we would supply with our own game stats, there'd be no need for new games.

 

Certainly there are plenty of gamers willling and able to do that - lots of them post to these boards, in fact. Yet there are many others who want the whole package, setting plus stats that they can use in a game. I would have to be convinced that there were enough of the first kind around to make it profitable.

 

I can also understand the preference of some game designers, when developing a unique new setting, to want to design rules for it that they feel are especially tailored to it. Mind you, there are plenty of game systems around that one could adapt to your setting, and maybe that is a more marketable approach than creating a brand new one. OTOH there are issues of licensing a system, both legal and economic, that need to be dealt with. (Things like D20's OGL were one other avenue, but the success of that venture has been mixed.)

 

I do remember one original, richly detailed setting that came out at first with no game attached to it at all - Talislanta, in the original Chronicles of Talislanta sourcebook. Of course a couple of years later, they'd written a new game for it.

[cutsleeve]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

Ive thought about the same thing in rpg merchandise. setting books or true source books. I would like to see something like that on the market personally. I dont think they would sell well thought most people would get all whiney if there where no system to it. it sould be the same arguement that you get for Hero system, the "why should i have to build it myself" arguement.

You certainly wouldnt get any money out of the munchkin gamers because they arent going to buy it unless it can give them 1 more damage, hit point, or a wonderful new samophlange with use. Im just tired of all the differant systems out there, but im also tired of d20ism where everything has to be made using the d20 system.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

No way!!!

 

In fact, I think one of the big problems with the current market is lack of innovation due to d20. (Disclaimer: This really only applies to rules light games since d20 doesn't compete with them. I see a lot of innovation in the industry right now in this area, but not with the crunchy systems)

 

Even if you think they all blow, its important for people to keep making new RPG systems because thats how innovation happens.

 

I definitely think people should stop making non-innovative new game systems (obviously)

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

I totally agree. It's stupid to make new systems, when the ones we have are so good.

 

Also, let's stop making new comic book characters, and novel characters, and let's stop letting people put up new websites.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

Absolutely not, I love looking at game rules to see how people come up with ways to do something. Some are just poorly done rip offs of other systems cough Palladium cough, but many offer new and clever ways to apply rules. I love to tinker with rules to find the ultimate combination of simplicity and down to the molecule detail. While HERO is close the ultimate game has not yet been invented, until it is I will welcome all new systems, even the bad rip offs (although I probably won't buy those until they are in the $0.99 bin during the buy 2 get one free sale).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

Absolutely! There should be only two game systems for role playing: A simplistic system on the order of Munchkin or d20 for the unwashed masses; and Hero for the intellectual elites.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

No nice way to say this..

 

That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard.

 

Always create, you never know what great new ideas will come forth.

[Lucius]

Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

I don't think it's a stupid idea. I don't really agree with it either.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is ruminating on it.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

Absolutely not. A lot of the little Indy games: Dogs in the Vineyard, the Mountain Witch, Polaris et. al, are some of the most intriguing material that RPGs have seen in years. Putting that creativity into a bottle and putting a stopper on it would be a crime.

[OddHat]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

Hmm... a setting book without any game stats is rather like a novel. Or an encyclopedia. Ultimately it's the ability to frame a setting within some kind of game mechanic that sets it apart from those other media. Other media are a tremendous source of ideas and inspiration for games, which is probably why so many companies license those properties to be able to do just that. If all we really wanted was the source material, which we would supply with our own game stats, there'd be no need for new games.

 

Certainly there are plenty of gamers willling and able to do that - lots of them post to these boards, in fact. Yet there are many others who want the whole package, setting plus stats that they can use in a game. I would have to be convinced that there were enough of the first kind around to make it profitable.

 

I can also understand the preference of some game designers, when developing a unique new setting, to want to design rules for it that they feel are especially tailored to it. Mind you, there are plenty of game systems around that one could adapt to your setting, and maybe that is a more marketable approach than creating a brand new one. OTOH there are issues of licensing a system, both legal and economic, that need to be dealt with. (Things like D20's OGL were one other avenue, but the success of that venture has been mixed.)

 

I do remember one original, richly detailed setting that came out at first with no game attached to it at all - Talislanta, in the original Chronicles of Talislanta sourcebook. Of course a couple of years later, they'd written a new game for it.

 

An excellent post, and I'll try to rep you for it when I can rep you again.

 

Side thought / mini-rant brought on by this post:

 

[Rant]

It bugs me that so much "official" game fiction contains events and situations that are impossible according to the rules of the damn game. Yes, I want a good story, but what's the point of writing fiction to illustrate a game setting when the events in the story can't actually occur in the actual game without a DM / GM hand wave?

 

It bugs me even more when rule-breaking fiction appears in official game rule or monster/enemy books.

 

OK, so the author want to tell a story not wory about rules, but it's fiction about the damn game setting. Get an editor who is willing to explain the damn rules and, when the story goes to press, have story events stick to those rules. Othewise you're just writing fiction inspired by a game world, and most of it isn't even particularly good fiction at that.

 

[/Rant]

[Enforcer84]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

Hey; let's stop making things.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

I think most people are reacting negatively to the question posed in the title and not the content of the post. I see a definite gap between the two. The Question is inherently silly (sorry), but the Post is something else entirely.

 

Stan is basically asking if there is a market for rules-free gaming supplements. I say yes, but a small one. I think the majority of people who buy game books want the rules included. Those who are willing to put in the work to adapt a ruleset to their own campaign are more likely to be creating their own campaign content.

 

Keith "read the post" Curtis

[Enforcer84]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

I think most people are reacting negatively to the question posed in the title and not the content of the post. I see a definite gap between the two. The Question is inherently silly (sorry), but the Post is something else entirely.

 

Stan is basically asking if there is a market for rules-free gaming supplements. I say yes, but a small one. I think the majority of people who buy game books want the rules included. Those who are willing to put in the work to adapt a ruleset to their own campaign are more likely to be creating their own campaign content.

 

Keith "read the post" Curtis

Hey, Let's stop reading the posts. Someone could get hurt.

[Lemurion]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

I would like to see both. I enjoy supplements AND I enjoy seeing new rules systems. One thing that the differing rules systems allow is for the authors to shift the paradigm, take a new view of gaming, and that's something that can make a huge difference to any game.

 

Creativity is vital, let's support it every way we can.

[Mr. Negative]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

What if small gaming companies started heading down this road? What if instead of a bunch of rules, they focused on developing an interesting new fantasy world, and spend the entire book on that, leaving the rules out and letting the players tailor the setting to whatever rules they like? Do you think this would help breathe new life into the RPG industry? Would people be more likely to buy these "Setting Books," if you will, than entirely new RPGs with new rules?

 

Just food for thought...

 

Well, two ideas come to mind.

 

First, if people stop coming up with different rule sets, then what are we going to try to convert into HERO?

 

This is actually more of a serious idea than I just made it out to be. A lot of games have specific rule sets because they are written from the ground up to support a specific type of play. I'm thinking, in particular, of Feng Shui here, which is not universal, generic, or particularly maker-friendly in any way, but does a great, great, great job of channelling you into creating and playing characters that are emblematic of its genre.

 

HERO GMs and players can look at how Feng Shui (or any well-written game) uses its rules to motivate better and more enjoyable role-playing in genre, and adapt those rules to their own campaigns (and better yet, modify them further in HERO).

 

Secondly, I don't necessarily think that pure "setting" books might do well, but not just for the basic "I'm lazy--give me stats!" reasons. There are ideas that are very specific to particular game settings that might be very hard (or even impossible) to replicate in particular game rules. I'm thinking of a particular Fire spell in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying, where the caster uses the spell to "boil" the blood of the victim, doing internal damage, but, if the victim takes enough damage to die, then he erupts in a column of boiling blood, damaging everyone around him. Easy enough to write up in HERO, I suppose, but substantially harder to write up in GURPS.

 

Now, owning WFRP, HERO, and GURPS, I can see the write up in WFRP AND I can see what the intented effects of the spell are. I can also see how the spell is limited by the magic power progression in WFRP and the dire consequences of their miscasts. I can also see relatively how deadly the direct damage of the spell is (based on the average damage it does in WFRP and the average Johannes Smith's stats) and how dangerous it is to others. If I had no rules for the spell, the writer would have to spell out, individually perhaps, how long this spell takes to cast, what risks are involved, how likely it is to kill a victim, and how dangerous it is to bystanders. Otherwise, I might interpret the spell as a quick killer, but relatively safe to be around (his head pops off--Tooot!) or a slow, excruciating death sentence for the victim and everyone around him (He's gonna blow!). The rules allow for a quick shorthand on that. That shorthand provided by the rules also allows me to eyeball the spell and convert it over to another system more easily, in my opinion.

 

To make a long point shorter (too late!) the presence of the rules is extremely convenient, as the rules act as a single reference source for stuff that would otherwise have to be spelled out (or left completely blank).

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

I think it's something you could do with any novel. Take The Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin for example. I could easily see a way to generate the Seven Kingdoms in HERO with character sheets for the major players like Jaime Lannister and Robert Baratheon.

 

So, in short, no there's no market.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

I have to make a confession. For fantasy gaming, I honestly tend to prefer systems custom built around a given magic system. Ars Magica is one of my favorite fantasy gaming systems for that reason. Likewise I tend to favor systems where the genre is at least partially built into the mechanics for flavor.

 

Champions is my favorite superhero RPG, but for other genres I tend to favor other systems. It's one of the reasons that GURPS has never caught my eye. It's too generic and flavorless for everything.

[casualplayer]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

What needs to happen is people need to blaze new ground, not retread the same old, same old. Does the gaming world need another system for "how stabby is my sword?" Nah, but what about a Football RPG (American or real football?) Tap into the scads of people playing fantasy leagues or ravening football hooligans with disposible cash. Stop pandering to the fanboys with the geek flavor of the week. All most game companies are doing is arguing over the wishbone, not realizing that even if you win all you get is a bone with little meat on it.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

What if small gaming companies started heading down this road? What if instead of a bunch of rules, they focused on developing an interesting new fantasy world, and spend the entire book on that, leaving the rules out and letting the players tailor the setting to whatever rules they like? Do you think this would help breathe new life into the RPG industry? Would people be more likely to buy these "Setting Books," if you will, than entirely new RPGs with new rules?

 

Just food for thought...

 

This has been tried before, Flying Buffalo had a series of books (Cities, Grimtooths traps, Butcher, Baker, Candlestick maker are a few that come to mind), Roleaids was another product (I don't recall who did that series) these were basically non specific game rule products, some were settings, some were places (Cities went to at least 4 books), some were flavor (Butcher, Baker, Candlestick maker was full of service type NPC's, there were some other books with other NPC types but I don't recall the titles), some were just plain mean (the Grimtooth series).

 

I don't see any of those around anymore so I would guess that probably says something about the feasability of the product.

[casualplayer]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

It was Mayfair, of Settlers of Catan fame, that did Role-Aids. They did D&D compatible stuff ages before Open License and beat TSR when they took them to court over it. WOTC probably has meaner lawyers, but no one has challenged them on it. Most judges consider game systems about as proprietory as a deck of cards. These days you could pretty easily dodge the legal eye by putting anything even vaguely overlapping on the net as free content.

 

But I like giving HERO Games some loot every so often. They tend the garden I like to play in.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

Systemless supplements - well It's a nice idea, I would never buy any of them. I get my creativity in an odd way...

 

I almost never get nifty ideas for my game, be it characters, setting or gadjets/magic items, from the background descriptions or color of the stuff. I get it from mechanics. I'll see a nifty mechanic and a character or object will spring to mind - and what comes to mind isn't mechanics but background and roleplaying flavor.*

Part of what I love about ultimate books and character books, but why I don't generally go for settings books, unless they have a lot of rules in them.

 

 

* Two examples - one D&D 3rd ed - I was going through the DMG in the section where templates for races are covered and I saw the half dragon and half celestial - and what immediatlly came to mind was a half Gold Dragon, half human Celestial Paladin - a character who by genetics is almost a perfect LG person, who never has had anything to shake her faith or stance - and the cool roleplaying that could happens as she leaves her sheltered home and finds out that not everyone is like her - and mabye even running into something that shakes her faith. The whole concept came from mechaincis.

Second example - Seeing the Body with Affects Desolid ability in UMM and thinking about using that for a Ch'i master or "angelic" character who cannot be possessed and whose strenth of spirit is strong enough to effect discorporal creatures (likely with Affects Desolid on STR as well). Again leading to an interesting personality idea from mechanics.

 

A "flavor" book with no mechanics would just leave me, because I am peculiar that way, completely cold.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

Keith Curtis started covering my reaction to this in his post.

 

I think it's a good idea to market/create new material that universally applies to any system. It raises a number of questions, not the least of which is:

 

How do you communicate to your consitutents how a character should be? If we make The Lord Captain Thia Halmades, I have to give you a four page description to cover what the man does - in HERO (or d20, etc.) I can give you a page write-up including stats, armor, specials, and skills. Bam, done. The mechanics serve in large part the programming language we use to communicate large ideas in a small space. When Susano created Conan the Cimmerian in HERO terms, that's precisely what he did - he took chunks of text, said "This means this to me" and applied it.

 

I liked the phrase "Never knows Fatigue" and gave it to my Sea Orks as +10 END. They can go longer than just about anyone or anything - they're also not a PC race, as they're a bit on the powerful side. The question becomes how to show that in d20? With just a higher CON score? By giving them the feat Endurance or Die-Hard (which is the d20 model I used). I'd need to give more detail than "Never Knows Fatigue" for you to have a clear idea of how to construct it.

 

Which isn't to say I'm dismissing the idea - I'm simply pointing out that different things will mean different things to different people. Liaden may read that and decide the Palindromedary should improve the CON score, and that would improve their fatigue. Keith Curtis may read it and see a race that has LS: Reduced Sleep. The problem that I see, first, is one of communication. How do I get my idea across to you in a way that's consistent with the vision of the world I'm selling you without a shared lingo?

 

Second, how would you develop a market for just that material? Would it be easier to simply draft a novel and let people take from it what they like, rather than trying to design & sell a gaming supplement with no rules attached to it?

 

Further, yes, we absolutely have some great systems, but innovation is King. I understand that Fusion was an attempt for HERO to go OGL, but that's probably not something that DOJ can do without running the risk of losing way more sales if WOTC starts printing HERO material.

 

Yikes.

 

HERO is the best system I've ever seen - but for a long time the world was flat and there were only three flavors of ice cream (from what I understand there's still only three flavors in Britain). Only by coughing up new ideas can we get to the next big idea.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems?

 

1 The Title: good title - got people reading and posting.

2 The Post: good post - got me thinking.

 

My view accords with the many: I LIKE rule systems, and sometimes they are not just a neutral backdrop but an integral part of the lok and feel BUT I'm intrigued by the idea of a completely rules neutral suppliment. It would (bviously) require work to run (you'd need to stat stuff up in your preferred game) but, built right, could be entertaining and useful.

 

You would need some sort of 'meta system' I think, if it was not just going to be an encyclopaedia or novel - some consistent way of providing build advice (Baron Maroldo should be avove average campaign strength and fighting ability and is a skilled demagogue...)

 

An idea with a lot of potential that, I fear, will bever be realised....