Michael Hopcroft Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 It is quite concievable in some fantasy worlds that a local King or Queen might in fact be one of the more self-aware breeds of Vampire. What does it means for adventurers in a campaign when this takes place? The vampire King might be evil -- but he might be an otherwise good ruler who happens to be an undead bloodsucking fiend. In the latter case, are people such as Champions of Good still obligated to overthrow him and put a human ruler in his place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire The vampire King might be evil -- but he might be an otherwise good ruler who happens to be an undead bloodsucking fiend. In the latter case' date=' are people such as Champions of Good still obligated to overthrow him and put a human ruler in his place?[/quote'] Yes. And what's this "Champions of Good" nonsense? Ain't none of them round here. I mean... in my world it's quite normal to burn down cities because you want to steal their stuff... The only reason why we wouldn't kill a vampire would be because he's too dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire In my campaigns, vampirism doesn't make you evil. There are usually plenty of willing maids to donate a little blood and heavy breathing. I almost want to lay this at the alignment thing. All vampires are chaotic evil so if you are a vampire you are chaotic evil. There doesn't seem to be space for a non-chaotic evil vampire. Personally, I think that each and every living being is unique. There are just as many good vampires as evil...priests (trying to find something commonly thought of as 'good')? I have even had a 'kingdom' that was ruled by a vampire. He was a very good and benevolent ruler and about the only difference was that the capital city pretty much ran on a nocturnal schedule. It was interesting and a lot of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Only two things would be certain there: undeath and taxes. Two Peasants from neighboring kingdoms are talking at the border. Peasant One: "Your king is an evil, bloodsucking monster!" Peasant Two: "True, he's a politician. But YOUR king's a vampire!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire There are just as many good vampires as evil...priests (trying to find something commonly thought of as 'good')? Priests are generally thought of as good? Personally I don't like good vampires, because being "cursed" with eternal youth, superpowers and sex appeal isn't that interesting. Still, it has its audience. As to the OQ, I'd say it all depends on the campaign. If "Good" and "Evil" are objecively real, and if Vampires fall in camp Evil, Champions of Good can and should kill them. That's what a world of black and white morality is about. Make it a godless world where Vampirism is and STD with great side effects and its an entirely different kind of story. The best take on this I've seen was David Gemmell's "Knights of Dark Renown". Essentially, a group of Paladins ride into a hell-world, are seduced, become Vampires and return to lead an invasion of their own home dimension. The Vampires were morally interesting, convinced that what they were doing was in the long term the best thing for their Earth. Their goals included genocide, and they as individuals had to kill when feeding, so it wasn't much of a stretch for the heroes to decide that these once great men and the king they had corrupted needed to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Having a vampire for a king wouldn't have much of an impact on your average medevaloid kingdom, I wouldn't have thought, apart from the possible stigma of being ruled by a Foul Fiend of the Undead. Assuming His Royal Undeadness is interested in being a reasonable monarch (rather than an eeeeevil Overlord), he could probably get by just feeding on condemned criminals -- there never seemed to be any shortage of them in Ye Olde Kingdoms; in fact it's quite likely that he'd end up one of the fattest vampires ever known. Those sentenced in non-capital cases might just be condemned to a morning tea roster, and so lose a bit of juice every week or so but not actually die. Court life would be a bit odd, especially for visiting dignitaries, since the hours would be reversed with everything being done at night. Nocturnal hawking parties could be taken using owls instead of falcons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Apparently, one of the Kings in the Eberron setting is a vampire. Not a particularly nice guy, but not Evil, and a well-respected ruler who preserved his kingdom through necromancy. I just heard an in-depth review of the setting in the latest Dragon's Landing Inn podcast and was intrigued by some of the concepts. Keith "and I don't even play d20" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victim Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire The vampire king in Eberron is evil, but he's more of the normal politician kind of evil than the enslave the world kind of evil. And he's pro peace. The goodly queen wants to kick off another world war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire The vampire king in Eberron is evil' date=' but he's more of the normal politician kind of evil than the enslave the world kind of evil. And he's pro peace. The goodly queen wants to kick off another world war. [/quote'] Yeah, that's why I capitalized "Evil". To distinguish the metaphysical concept from a value judgment. Keith "Lawful Moderate" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matto Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Vampire king? That sucks. It's all very relative, as everybody has pointed out. And aside from needing to read "Knights of Dark Reknown" now (once I'm done with "Echoes of the Great Song"), I'll add a quick thought. The thing about vampirism is that in many mythos, it locks the victim into a permanent nocturnal state. Combine that with extravagently long life, amazing supernatural power, and the need to feed on human prey, and you have an excellent formula for a villain. Over the course of a lifetime, most people become mere amplifications of what their nature draws them toward. Silly people become sillier, the wise become wiser, etc. We move toward an extreme unless or until something cataclysmic happens. And so I reason that most vampires are evil based off of an eternity of darkness, predatory feeding, and the betrayals involved with many fantastic "vampiric courts", such as those seen in Vampire: the Masquerade. Other fantasies argue a much more unnatural sort of evil that draws out of the vampire-- Buffy: the Vampire Slayer suggests they lack a soul and thus become selfish, murdering, callous monsters. David Gemmell also wrote "Morningstar," where a vampire does not feed on blood but rather on innocence, as true a monster as any. But I always preferred my vampires moving toward evil at their own pace, slowly losing their humanity as centuries slip past. You need to decide on what kind of stake-holster your king is-- the soulless or the sophisticated. Also, what kind of Champions of Good are these? A Paladin who fights for the Lady of the Light is going to want a strong moral agent on the throne (not that strong moral agents can't be frightening in power. . . .). If they're headed up by a world-weary general who knows that politics are a matter of choosing between bad and worse, then it will be more a matter of policy than biology. Personally, I like the idea of a dark ruler. I'll have to look that Eberron stuff up. But if nothing else, this is the kind of discussion I'd rather seen played out in a game between the PCs than anything. Watching the friction could be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire I was actually planning to make the Republic where my campaign is set desolved by a Vampire a la Star Wars. The PC's inadvertantly brought him back to life by killing someone and spilling blood all over his 600 year old corpse. He is the original vampire of my campaign, all vampire are decended from him. An ancient magi who chased immortality and turned himself into the 1st undead. He also fathered Necromancy as a school of magick and is the most powerful Necromancer the world has ever seen. Plot hooks to get the PC's involved include: a)A feeling of responsibilty for bringing him back to life. b)The fact that they have an amulet which, unbeknownst to them, controls vampires which old Vlad Han von Hannenheim is desperate to get his hands on. c) If all else fails, They will be ordered to sort it out by their boss. edit: He is utterly evil btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Yeah' date=' that's why I capitalized "Evil". To distinguish the metaphysical concept from a value judgment.[/quote'] I just love that part. "He's evil not EVIL." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword-dancer Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire It is quite concievable in some fantasy worlds that a local King or Queen might in fact be one of the more self-aware breeds of Vampire. What does it means for adventurers in a campaign when this takes place? This depends on the kind of Vampirism, did he only need blood to survive, how does he act and so on,mybe it`s only a curse of needing blood, not the infusion of a power which made him evil, murdering etc of the type of adventurers/pc who are in this campaign, between palladins and demon serving daemonpacters is difference. The vampire King might be evil -- but he might be an otherwise good ruler who happens to be an undead bloodsucking fiend. I think yes, because hewould use his ability to rule efficient for evil ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Surviving on, or being cursed to destroy the "life essence" of others is pretty much the defacto meaning of evil. Vampire Social Taboos- 1. Violate life cycle 2. Violate reproductive cycle (male vampires create their "children") 3. Strip away individuality (make you a subserviant vampire whose goals and experiences mean nothing... like the Borg). 4. Intimacy with strangers 5. Acknowledge and give in to the "inner beast." There are several other major social taboos that are crossed by vampires but the main point to take home is that they are the antithesis of "proper behavior as nature and God intended" ~ thus, it would be automaticlly infered that those who upheld that creed would be forced to bring low the violators of the natural order. In a world with "do gooders" vampires must always be opposed.... In a world of moral relativism, where there is no good and there is no bad, this doesn't necessarily hold true but then you got to ask why vampires came to be. The Borg are vampires in a less morally sure world and they work well but they don't take the trappings of "natural order as god intended" along with them. Star Trek tossed out the religious inconography and forged ahead with a modern reimaging. It worked. [Edit: Ever notice that the "not so bad vampires" (ala Anne Rice and RPGs) don't automaticlly punk everyone they create. These NSBV typically leave the goals, personalities, and dreams of their victims intact and whole. It seems we can be comfortable with admiring a blood sucking fiend but not a blood sucking fiend who robs us of who we are.... 100% western thought there BTW] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire In my game (and in the current story arc, too, although she has been around for a long time in the game setting) I have a vampire queen. The general citizenry don't like her (I mean, random people disappear when the supply of condemned criminals or resolute paladin types runs dry for a few nights...) on the other hand, she's a very powerful magus, rules with a relatively light hand and has mostly rid her kingdom of nasty people-eating monsters, bandits and player-character types, so her kingdom is quietly prosperous and a safe place to live. If pressed, most people would point out that the vast majority of rulers kill far more of their subjects than the Dark Queen ever does and the kingdom doesn't suffer from the frequent wars of succession or rebellion their neighbours do. She's not evil per se - just hungry and sees the right to occasionally chow down on a citizen as a fair and reasonable payment for all she's done for them. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Vampires are demons. End of story. Heretics may have other opinions. That's OK, because it's OK to kill heretics and take their stuff too. Incidentally, what relevance does "Personally, I think that each and every living being is unique" have to do with the UnDEAD? If it's not obvious, my preferred fantasy settings lean towards Swords and Sorcery rather than what Michael Moorcock described as "Epic Pooh" (http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.html?id=953 ). This is, of course, the exact opposite of my inclinations in the Superheroic genre. There ya go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire It is quite concievable in some fantasy worlds that a local King or Queen might in fact be one of the more self-aware breeds of Vampire. In The Turakian Age, Sargath the Vampire Lord, usurper of the throne of Dragosani, fufills this particular role. He's one of the master villains I've written up for NKN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire How about a King who acts like the less savory real world absolute monarchs? Soldiers who abuse the population, rape camps, ethnic cleansing, war with neighboring knigdoms when the treasury gets low, torture of political rivals, mass executions, witch hunts, mountains of skulls, entire cities destroyed for questioning the central power, children of troublesome minorities sold as sex slaves after watching their parents die. And we'll make him a Paladin in terms of his own religion. I guess he could also be a Vampire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Labrat Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire In The Turakian Age' date='[/i'] Sargath the Vampire Lord, usurper of the throne of Dragosani, fufills this particular role. He's one of the master villains I've written up for NKN. YAY! I can see a Vampire-Empire (Vam-Empire?) rising from a willing mass. See, if a vampire were to set up residence in the local abandoned castle (or even overtake a populated one), then he may gain a quick following due to his power, charisma and of course his willingness to not attack his own people. The maids may throw themselves at him because, in the classic literature, there is a rather euphoric experience that comes with falling prey to a vampire's mesmerism and feeding... I'm sure we can all see the natural progression of such a euphoric boost towards addiction, even if it means that crashing will leave you bed-ridden for extended periods. Makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Court life would be a bit odd' date=' especially for visiting dignitaries, since the hours would be reversed with everything being done at night. Nocturnal hawking parties could be taken using owls instead of falcons.[/quote'] Owls are way harder to train than falcons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethosos Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Only in the sense of not eating your prey. You can train them to be comfortable around you, even doing the whole jesse and strap business. Now, if it were bondbird owls... and since it's a magical world, why not a basterdized form of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Owls are way harder to train than falcons. It's true. About the only bird that is harder to train is the emu. Stupid, stupid emus. Keith "Nothing personal. Some of my best friends are emus." Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbarron Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire How about a King who acts like the less savory real world absolute monarchs? Soldiers who abuse the population, rape camps, ethnic cleansing, war with neighboring knigdoms when the trasury gets low, torture of political rivals, mass executions, witch hunts, mountains of skulls, entire cities destroyed for questioning the central power, children of troublesome minorities sold as sex slaves after watching their parents die. And we'll make him a Paladin in terms of his own religion. I guess he could also be a Vampire. As most of my PCs are card carrying member of the "Champions of Good," I can say with confidence that, vampire or no, this King is going to be killed, all his stuff is going to be taken, and his city is going to be burned down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire Apparently, one of the Kings in the Eberron setting is a vampire. Not a particularly nice guy, but not Evil, and a well-respected ruler who preserved his kingdom through necromancy. I just heard an in-depth review of the setting in the latest Dragon's Landing Inn podcast and was intrigued by some of the concepts. Keith "and I don't even play d20" Curtis Yep, Kaius III is a vampire. He's also Kaius I, go figure. He's also the legitimate ruler of Karnnath, which would make a stake-induced abdication a great way to destabilize the entire continent, which could ultimately cause more death and destruction than leaving Kaius III in power *ever* could, as the 'Cold War Detente' that the Treaty of Thronehold established may well crumble, plunging Khorvaire into Last War II. In Eberron, nothing's that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethosos Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Re: So the King is a Vampire In Eberron' date=' nothing's that simple. [/quote'] Understatement--I'm still trying to figure out what happened precisely during The Day of Mourning, and who/how the Lord of Blades ties into it. However, Kaius I had a leginimate reason for being throned again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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