Holding 'em Back

[Dust Raven]

A player in my campaign want's an ability that saps a target's STR with the SFX of "shadow creaturs" appear out of the ether and grab the target. The grab-like effect of these creatures aren't really the same as a Grab maneuver, as each creature is too small to actually hinder limbs. I figure the best way to represent this is with a Drain or Suppress. I thought of using TK, but as I said, an actual Grab which would have the wrong effect we're looking for.

 

My question concerns a minor effect of this ability. END. Technically, even though the target would have less STR, he should still need to spend the END of any STR Drained or Suppressed when using their STR. The idea is that they need to overcome the creatures holding them back to use their STR and need to devote some of their STR to do so. How would you guys build this effect?

 

Thanks!

[gojira]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

Well, if the little buggers are always grabbing and hanging on the target, maybe he'd lose END even just standing there? Because the shadow critters are always grabbing him, so he has to make an effor event to stand still?

 

So an END Drain in addition to the STR Drain seems like it might be able to work with the SFX, and is pretty straight forward to build...

[Zed-F]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

Why not drain STR and END simultaneously (+1/2 advantage)?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

I'm with Zed - if you drain them both, he'll be about as restrained as you can get. Your other option, though, if you haven't considered it is to drain his mode of MOVEMENT.

 

He can be as big as a house and not get anywhere if you Drain Running 20 points. Or drain Flying. Or drain ALL MOVEMENT POWERS (+1) - Flying, Leaping, Running, Swimming. The only thing you couldn't drain by the SFX is Teleport.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

I'm with Zed - if you drain them both, he'll be about as restrained as you can get. Your other option, though, if you haven't considered it is to drain his mode of MOVEMENT.

 

He can be as big as a house and not get anywhere if you Drain Running 20 points. Or drain Flying. Or drain ALL MOVEMENT POWERS (+1) - Flying, Leaping, Running, Swimming. The only thing you couldn't drain by the SFX is Teleport.

 

Or possibly swinging, depending on how it's defined. It doesn't take Spider-Man a lot of effort to use his webbing, but someone who uses his own limbs for such maneuvers (like Mr. Fantastic could, but usually doesn't) would probably be affected.

[Mike W]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

See, I don't see this as a Drain because you aren't actually taking away any of the target's abilities.

 

You are hindering the targets ability to move/fight by holding them back. That's what an Entangle does.

 

Entangle, Cannot Form Barriers, Vulnerable to Light Powers.

 

You probably want Set Effect(Feet/legs only) as well. That way , the character is still free to take a full STR swing at anything that comes close, but must break free of the entangle to actually move.

 

You might also consider adding on 1 hex AOE to represent the diffficulty of dodging it. Also, you probably want Entangle and Character Both Take Damage, since the shadow creatures probably aren't substantial enough individually to provide much protection/resistance from any attacks designed to blast them off, but that's up to you and the player.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

I'm not sure if Drainng both STR and END works. According to the SFX as described to me, there should be absolutley no effect on the target if he just stands there, unless the target is so physically weak he collapses under the pressure of the shadow creatures (which sounds like a STR Drain). The trick is that if the character uses his STR (which isn't really "drained"), he must spend END for everything that is effectively Drained and then the END for the remaining STR he can actually use. Sure, I could make it Drain STR and END, but the mechanics of how that works doesn't even come close to the mechanics of what should actually happen. Maybe a second Drain END Continuous 0 END Persistant Uncontrolled that's Limited to only Drain END when the character would be using it... Seems like it'd cost way too much compared to what actually happens.

 

The Entangle or Drain movement won't work either. The target's movement isn't hindered in any way, the only thing that's hampered is how much force can be put behind any movement.

 

Maybe I'll talk to the player and see if he can come up with a different SFX. This sounds so simple though... I'm sure the Hero System can do it, but how?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

Hang on.

 

My question concerns a minor effect of this ability. END. Technically' date=' even though the target would have less STR, he should still need to spend the END of any STR Drained or Suppressed when using their STR. The idea is that they need to overcome the creatures holding them back to use their STR and need to devote some of their STR to do so. How would you guys build this effect?[/quote']

 

First things first, apriori premise. You only spend END on what you have. So if you have 10 STR, you spend END on 10 STR. You can build a power with a Change Environment or such that increases the END cost to do anything, but straight up by canon, if you have 200 STR, and use 10 - you spend END for 10 of it.

 

Second. We reason from effect. You want to model the target "overcoming" the creatures - I agree with Mike. It's an Entangle that he can break out of (STR). If the target can 'escape,' it's an Entangle. If he's just subject to little nasty shadow minions sucking his Aether away, that's a Drain/Suppress. If you want it to cost Extra END for him to do that, that's a Change Environment (as I can think of no other way to do it).

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

How about just throwing a modifier on your Suppress STR power "only vs. exerted STR (±0)". Is the extra END the victim will use for STR really so great as to require something beyond a SFX call?

 

If it is, make it a +¼ Advantage. At the +¼ level it would be cheaper than buying a Suppress vs. STR and END (at +½), but the END wouldn't be affected as much either, so the Advantage level would be about right.

 

___________________________________________________________

"Why follow me to higher ground, lost as you swear I am?" - Ed Roland

[Dust Raven]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

Second. We reason from effect. You want to model the target "overcoming" the creatures - I agree with Mike. It's an Entangle that he can break out of (STR). If the target can 'escape,' it's an Entangle. If he's just subject to little nasty shadow minions sucking his Aether away, that's a Drain/Suppress. If you want it to cost Extra END for him to do that, that's a Change Environment (as I can think of no other way to do it).

 

Reasoning from effect: The target doesn't break out of the creatures hold. They latch onto him. If he have enough STR to still move with them latch on, he can move normally but can't lift as much or punch as hard, but has to exhert himself as if he were using all of the STR he can't use because of the shadow creatures.

 

How about just throwing a modifier on your Suppress STR power "only vs. exerted STR (±0)". Is the extra END the victim will use for STR really so great as to require something beyond a SFX call?

 

If it is, make it a +¼ Advantage. At the +¼ level it would be cheaper than buying a Suppress vs. STR and END (at +½), but the END wouldn't be affected as much either, so the Advantage level would be about right.

That might be the only way to do this "accurately" actually. Honestly, I'm not sure if the extra END cost on the target's remaining STR is worth an Advantage. Certainly its worth more than the target not having to pay END for STR he doesn't have/can't use, but is it worth enough to warrent a +1/4 advantage? Maybe. Anyone else with thoughts on this?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

There's probably some Advantage or combination of Advantages (Continuous maybe) that would let you build it as an Entangle that's fairly easy to break out of, but then regenerates itself, so that the target has to break out every single phase he wants to take a physical action. That would end up sapping END from all but the strongest characters (those who could break out with casual STR), and would hinder their effectiveness in combat as well, by eating up half phases here and there.

 

I need to get my crap together for tomorrow or I'd build a sample version for you.

[SirViss]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

I'm not sure if Drainng both STR and END works. According to the SFX as described to me, there should be absolutley no effect on the target if he just stands there, unless the target is so physically weak he collapses under the pressure of the shadow creatures (which sounds like a STR Drain). The trick is that if the character uses his STR (which isn't really "drained"), he must spend END for everything that is effectively Drained and then the END for the remaining STR he can actually use. Sure, I could make it Drain STR and END, but the mechanics of how that works doesn't even come close to the mechanics of what should actually happen. Maybe a second Drain END Continuous 0 END Persistant Uncontrolled that's Limited to only Drain END when the character would be using it... Seems like it'd cost way too much compared to what actually happens.

...

I think you may be over-analysing the whole thing. The stated goal is that the target should be getting tired about as quickly as if he was using his "real strength", right? Well Draining STR and END should simulate this. Since his pool of END will be smaller, he will be spending "more" for his lower STR, and be getting tired quicker than would be indicated by using less STR.

 

That is how I see it anyway. Anything else (as far as I can tell) is probably way more complicated than you want.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

I think you may be over-analysing the whole thing. The stated goal is that the target should be getting tired about as quickly as if he was using his "real strength", right? Well Draining STR and END should simulate this. Since his pool of END will be smaller, he will be spending "more" for his lower STR, and be getting tired quicker than would be indicated by using less STR.

 

That is how I see it anyway. Anything else (as far as I can tell) is probably way more complicated than you want.

Unless he chooses to do stuff other than use his STR or his STR is Reduced END (to 0 or 1/2). The last thing I want to do is have this used in game and have everyone at the table go... um... so the shadow guys are holding the mentalist down, and even though he's not resisting in any way, he lacks the energy to use his Ego Attack?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

There's probably some Advantage or combination of Advantages (Continuous maybe) that would let you build it as an Entangle that's fairly easy to break out of, but then regenerates itself, so that the target has to break out every single phase he wants to take a physical action. That would end up sapping END from all but the strongest characters (those who could break out with casual STR), and would hinder their effectiveness in combat as well, by eating up half phases here and there.

 

I need to get my crap together for tomorrow or I'd build a sample version for you.

I don't want to be rude or anything, but I have said this many times already. The effects of this power do not immobilize the target and there is nothing to break out of. In addition, nothing about how this power was described to me forces targets to spend time dealing with the effect in any way.

[SirViss]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

Unless he chooses to do stuff other than use his STR or his STR is Reduced END (to 0 or 1/2). The last thing I want to do is have this used in game and have everyone at the table go... um... so the shadow guys are holding the mentalist down' date=' and even though he's not resisting in any way, he lacks the energy to use his Ego Attack?[/quote']

Ah, the pleasures of trying to cover all your bases. I feel your pain (I GM too).

 

Here is another way of looking at it. How often does a character not use their strength. Not "STR" but strength. You say that "what if a character simply doesn't resist...", but unless they decide to go to 0 CV, they will be using their strength in combat, if only to "dodge" (not the maneuver, but simply maintaining DCV), to point or aim, or turn their head to look at their target (usually necessary for mentalists). I believe this to be fairly rare.

 

Now if a character has his STR bought with Reduced END (to 0 or 1/2), he is nearly impossible to tire out, and having his END reduced, shouldn't bother him much anyway.

 

And if there are characters that you feel really shouldn't suffer the reduced END, well I guess my original suggestion won't help.

 

A few other ideas that pop into my head would be to really make it a Summon, though I won't dare to venture as to what the creatures would have to be like to simulate the effect you are looking for. And Thia suggested something that you may want to keep in mind: Change Environment can do some "minor" damage to characters. You could make CE UAA to make it stick to the target and have it do END Damage (Only to keep STR END usage constant) and leave it at that.

 

Than again I just migt be nuts.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

What about a low-DEF Force Wall (bought Uncontrolled or something so it keeps regenerating) that surrounds the target, but doesn't protect him? The net result is that 2 or 3 BODY worth (or equivalent STR exertion at GM option) is "eaten up" by "breaking" the Force Wall, leaving less effect for damage, lift, etc. This also solves the END issue, because the target would still be exerting their full STR.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

I don't want to be rude or anything' date=' but I have said this many times already. The effects of this power do not immobilize the target and there is nothing to break out of. In addition, nothing about how this power was described to me [i']forces[/i] targets to spend time dealing with the effect in any way.

 

If a character had an extremely low strength (and perhaps the mass to match) is it within your idea of the effect to still not immobilized the character?

 

Perhaps instead of a strength drain, increase their mass through a transform (OK OK I know I think tranforms solve anything ) however I'm half asleep and don't remember if this will have the desired effect on movement and strength output.

[Mike W]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

I don't know if increasing the mass is exactly right. But this might be one of those, "when in doubt, fall back on Transform" situtations. Before we go that far though, let's exhaust all other options.

 

OK, let's see if we've got this right. The shadow creatures latch on. You can move normally, even sprint, BUT whenever you try to exert your STR to lift something, punch something, etc, you can't do it as well because the critters are pulling against you. It's not Drain because the STR is still there, you're even using it. Also, since the STR is still there and being used, it isn't Suppress(though we might build a specialized version to suit). So how about this?

 

Telekinesis. Only to oppose target's STR(-1/2). About 15 points of STR pushing the other way would reduce your lifting by about one level on the chart and take one die of STR off your punches. Because of the way STR works, it's really hard to do more than that.

 

If you don't like that, this is going to get complicated. Something like this maybe:

 

Suppress STR(. Can never suppress more than half of STR(-1/4, it's a low total after all) AND

Major Transform, Target's STR gets limit x2 END. Linked to Suppress.

 

This effectively does what we want. The character cannot make use of their full STR, but they are paying END as if they were. It's a bit clunky and doesn't quite fit the special effect, but mechanically it gets the job done. You'll probably want to put some sort of limit on it that it gets easily dispelled by light powers or some such thing. And the END cost is not insignificant, but then, neither is what you're trying to do.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

This doesn't strike me as being too much different from the effect of making an ice slick that causes you to become prone if you fail to make a Dex check, so my first thought here is Change Environment.

 

Perhaps design a CE that imposes a -X penalty to STR rolls. Then, whenever the character wants to lift something, throw a punch or otherwise use STR, he has to make a roll. If he makes the roll, he can act normally. If he fails, then for each point by which he missed the roll he effectivly loses 5 or 10 points worth of STR.

 

Since you are not actully draining the characters STR, he still pays full END for what he is using. Of course, this might be too effective against lower STR targets since Bricks will tend to have rolls in the 19- to 23- range...

[Mike W]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

This doesn't strike me as being too much different from the effect of making an ice slick that causes you to become prone if you fail to make a Dex check, so my first thought here is Change Environment.

 

Perhaps design a CE that imposes a -X penalty to STR rolls. Then, whenever the character wants to lift something, throw a punch or otherwise use STR, he has to make a roll. If he makes the roll, he can act normally. If he fails, then for each point by which he missed the roll he effectivly loses 5 or 10 points worth of STR.

 

Since you are not actully draining the characters STR, he still pays full END for what he is using. Of course, this might be too effective against lower STR targets since Bricks will tend to have rolls in the 19- to 23- range...

 

And therein lies the crux of the problem. Anything along those lines that is effective enough to significantly reduce a brick's punching damage would almost completely eliminate the STR of a "regular" character. And I get the feeling that the power shouldn't do that. Somehow, the power seems to attune itself to its target. At least, that's how I'm reading Dust Raven's description.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

Perhaps go with the End Drain, but limit that part of the power? "only takes effect when target exerts STR, max effect=end expended by STR"

[Shike019]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

Why not use a Naked Modifier?

[Mad Fnorder]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

Telekinesis. Only to oppose target's STR(-1/2). About 15 points of STR pushing the other way would reduce your lifting by about one level on the chart and take one die of STR off your punches. Because of the way STR works, it's really hard to do more than that.

 

Uncontrollable and Continuous, I think this makes the best example. If you just go by 0/negative STR descriptions (What you're forced to roll for if you've been drained/supressed to 0 STR) get opposed by this sort of thing. Needs a small bit of handwave, but isn't too bad.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

So... why not just model them that they add Encumbrance? Then he is, in fact, attempting to 'overcome' the additional weight AND must expend all of his STR to do it, and if he's carrying enough, he starts taking penalties. So your shadow minions are the ultimate work out tool

[Dust Raven]

Re: Holding 'em Back

 

And therein lies the crux of the problem. Anything along those lines that is effective enough to significantly reduce a brick's punching damage would almost completely eliminate the STR of a "regular" character. And I get the feeling that the power shouldn't do that. Somehow' date=' the power seems to attune itself to its target. At least, that's how I'm reading Dust Raven's description.[/quote']

The power doesn't really attune to the target, but yes, the creatures would most likely keep most normals from moving at all, or at least put them equivilant to having less than 0 STR.

So... why not just model them that they add Encumbrance? Then he is' date=' in fact, attempting to 'overcome' the additional weight AND must expend all of his STR to do it, and if he's carrying enough, he starts taking penalties. So your shadow minions are the ultimate work out tool[/quote']

Something like this might work... The only problems with it are that it wouldn't cause the target to do less damage with STR, and it would require Transform (target into encumbered target).

 

Speaking of using Transform... the END issue part of this Power definately seems undoable to any other mechanic in the rules, so it qualifies for Transform. I'm half tempted to say it's a Cosmetic effect, but probably Minor. The only problem is that it should be automatic, and that's a LOT of dice even for normals. I might end up going with a simple +1/4 Modifier on a Suppress STR in the end. I'm still mulling it over.

 

Thanks for everyone's help so far!