Character out of balance

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Character out of balance

 

That would work... but that's more like a symbiotic entity that only looks like tattoos, not the real thing.

 

Honestly? I'll admit, there's a minor temptation on my end to let the character through as written.

 

Just to see the look on the player's face the first time he gets knocked out, and the enemy brick rolls up his sleeves to start effortlessly ripping patches of his skin off.

[Tech]

Re: Character out of balance

 

Pardon me if I missed something and these were already covered:

 

A question to ponder is: do you want this player in your campaign? If this is but one of many continued rules abuse, perhaps this question needs to be raised. If this is a beginner player, you need the help the player see how foolish/inconsistent/totally cheesy/etc., these 'limitations' are.

 

I would suggest you junk the character concept, sit down with the player and help build a new character. Limitations like these are either a sign the player purposely is milking the hero system or they geniuinely don't see a problem with these limitations.

[OzMike]

Re: Character out of balance

 

Limitations like these are either a sign the player purposely is milking the hero system or they geniuinely don't see a problem with these limitations.

 

Or that they don't know the system.... I remember some of my earlier characters did exactly the same type of things with powers and limitations.

 

Didn't stop the GM whupping my behind every session though - strangely enough, he had more points to spend.

[Dr.Device]

Re: Character out of balance

 

I agree with the consensus on the character, except that I might allow OIF on the tattoos. If the tattoos are obviously the source of the powers and simply visibly altering the tattoos will stop them from working, then OIF is a perfectly reasonable.

 

I'd have no problem with the bad guys whipping out a sharpie after rendering the character unconscious, and proceeding to put mustaches on all the face tattoos, add extraneous letters or glyphs, and so on.

 

The character could eventually get the powers back by getting rid of the ink, but it might take a while.

[Mentor]

Re: Character out of balance

 

How about "Addicted to Love"? Might as well face it....

Ouch.

 

Dude, that means that due do concept he has to buy the Disads, "I can't eat, I can't sleep...":D

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Character out of balance

 

Ouch.

 

Dude, that means that due do concept he has to buy the Disads, "I can't eat, I can't sleep...":D

 

No, no ... he should use the points to buy Life Support: No need to Eat, No need to Sleep.

 

He should take Vulnerability: 2x Effect from Mind Control, though, since his mind is not his own.

 

Anyway ...

 

Without knowing the player in question, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in that he's not familiar with the rules and knows not what he does, or that he's simply young and lacks the wisdom to know this is a really BAD IDEA.

[MilkmanDan]

Re: Character out of balance

 

That would work... but that's more like a symbiotic entity that only looks like tattoos, not the real thing.

 

Honestly? I'll admit, there's a minor temptation on my end to let the character through as written.

 

Just to see the look on the player's face the first time he gets knocked out, and the enemy brick rolls up his sleeves to start effortlessly ripping patches of his skin off.

 

Give them a zero-point Reputation disadvantage that people know this will work. The mystical tattoos will bond to any skin they are placed upon, so they have a very well-known, bloody history.

 

He'll be quite effective. Until he's skinned alive.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Character out of balance

 

I say let him have his character as written, and then use these disadvantages to their fullest to break the player's/character's will to live. That would be most fun.

[Haerandir]

Re: Character out of balance

 

I'm with CC, give him the benefit of the doubt and try to convince him that his character isn't just 'out of balance', but actively free-falling. Keep your options open and see if he can learn before you lower the boom.

 

As for how to model someone's mind not being their own, I'd do it as "Subject to Orders", but as a Phys Lim, instead of a Social Lim.

 

Actually, going through the song line-by-line, I think there may actually be a character in there...

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Character out of balance

 

Uhm... I might've missed something in the thread... but which song?

[Haerandir]

Re: Character out of balance

 

How about "Addicted to Love"? Might as well face it....

 

Ever since OzMike committed this atrocious pun, people have been slipping references to Robert Palmer's "Addicted to Love" into discussion.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Character out of balance

 

That explains it - my musical repertoire is woefully lacking that number.

[Checkmate]

Re: Character out of balance

 

I'm not so sure I'd use the word "woefully".

[Lucius]

Re: Character out of balance

 

That explains it - my musical repertoire is woefully lacking that number.

 

So is mine, or I'd already be doing the same thing I did here -

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43601&page=3

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks me a pointed question, and I find the answer.

[OzMike]

Re: Character out of balance

 

Checkmate:

I'm not so sure I'd use the word "woefully".

 

Haerandir:

Ever since OzMike committed this atrocious pun, people have been slipping references to Robert Palmer's "Addicted to Love" into discussion.

 

I wouldn't say 'atrocious' either

 

I'm just runnin' at a different speed

[Dynamo]

Re: Character out of balance

 

Just to see the look on the player's face the first time he gets knocked out' date=' and the enemy brick rolls up his sleeves to start effortlessly ripping patches of his skin off. [/quote']I'd have the same temptation, except that the tattoos would transfer themselves readily to anyone who defeats their current bearer. After all, the demon is looking for someone powerful to serve as their escalator into the mortal realm, right?

 

But I definitely call cheese on the Transform. Smack that one down, and maybe you'll get some whine to go with it.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Character out of balance

 

The second abuse comes from one of the powers in the EC' date=' that of a transformation with no conscious control to pick up any lengthy stick (broom handle, branch, etc. ) and using the transformation turn it into a 2d6HKA AP autofire 3, independent, real weapon with reduced endurance.[/quote']

 

Personally, I also would NEVER allow this blatant munchkinism. But let's assume for a moment that you've lost all sanity and actually consider approving it.

 

Well, as far as this is concerned, you have a, what, 3 BODY broom handle being turned into an 82 Active Point power. (If this is beyond any Active Point cap, that's no-no #1.) Since he's not really paying Character Points for the item (just the Transform), I'd refuse to allow the Independent limitation, but would allow it to be a Universal OAF. So the limitations bring it down to 37 Real Points. That means an extra 7 BODY is needed to transform the broom handle (total of 10 BODY). If he doesn't have 2-3d6 Transform, it will take him more than one Phase to do the Tranform. So maybe that No Conscious Control means he only gets one Phase worth of Transform. Close, but no blaster rifle.

 

And then, you have fun with the Real Weapon Limitation. If the broom handle or stick is old or not in great shape, the resulting weapon should also need some serious work (cleaning, maybe some parts replacement) to get working reliably. And it needs continued maintenance. Don't forget that it likely "heals" its BODY and reverts back to a broom handle in a few weeks. Maybe it Transforms back in the middle of a battle weeks later, if you're one of those quietly-evil GMs.

[GamePhil]

Re: Character out of balance

 

The power abuse, at least to my understanding of the rules, comes from two limitations place on the EC: Plot Hook -3/4 and Only when Serving Gods Purposes -1/2; there are also OIF Tattoos tha glow when ever powers are used, ego skill roll and gestures. My take on these limitations is that it is the GM whim if those powers work at all; that the GM would have to monitor the PC as well as the villainy amok for the scene. And part of the mulitple question is, as a GM would you want the hassle or allow such device into a campaign?

 

Ok, does Plot Hook mean:

1. The character does not have full control over the Power. No Conscious Control, Only Results, as has been said.

2. The Power can only be used at plot-specific moments, probably dramatic moments during the game. Possibly because of adrenaline, or the demon wanting to save him, or just the alignment of the universe happening at this time. It needs a specific in-game reason, unless the character gains power from literary imperative, which nothing you've described indicates. It also requires discussion with you to establish level of Limitation, and probably should not be taken with Only With God's Permission.

 

I agree this creates work for the GM, and should be re-phrased and envisioned if that's going to be a problem so you don't have to act as oversight.

 

I disagree about the OIF Tattoos, given the right circumstances. All there needs to be is some means of removing them, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are a ring or a suit of armor or some such. They are magical demonic tattoos and may have a common means of removal in a turn. My choice: The demon likes the villain searching you better and transfers to that character, because they are Universal Foci! Now you must get them back! Bwa ha ha ha!

 

I usually hesitate to allow Gestures in a Superheroic campaign. Only allow it at all if situations where his hands will be bound or somesuch often enough to warrant it.

 

Just curious: is he using an Activation Roll equal to his Ego Roll, or a Skill Roll using his Ego Roll? The -1/10 doesn't *necessarily* apply, and there are other differences. In either case, he's using a roll for all his Powers? *shudder*

 

The second abuse comes from one of the powers in the EC, that of a transformation with no conscious control to pick up any lengthy stick (broom handle, branch, etc. ) and using the transformation turn it into a 2d6HKA AP autofire 3, independent, real weapon with reduced endurance.

 

Ok, I'm going to disagree with the others about this one, too. It's No Conscious Control, which means that the Power to create the stick is in the GM's hands, after which it works for the character. Putting NCC on the attack itself means the attack goes off when the GM wants it to, which is not what he wants. So, at times you feel it is appropriate, he will suddenly have this fairly powerful but not hideous powerful weapon if he can get a stick. But you have control over it. Also check out the rules for the Transform increasing the target's points: it's not that easy, especially if it only goes off once or twice.

 

Two problems I have with it: It's another "luck" type power, that is, a power that requires GM oversight and therefore more work. I might disallow it on this basis alone. Second, what does it represent? What is there about this character's touch that sometimes causes a stick to become a weapon? If the first doesn't bother you, and the second is adequately answered, I'd probably allow it.

 

Since I don't expect that to be the case, I'd say no, though

[Mike W]

Re: Character out of balance

 

The Power transform isn't built the way he wants it because as others have pointed out - the NCC limit means that he has no control over whether it works, not that it always works whether he wants it or not(that would be Always On). And make sure the power conforms to all campaign limits. You can't Transform a broomstick into an 80 Active Point weapon if the campaign limit is 60 active points. Make him tone it down(I'd say drop the autofire).

 

As for the first issue: 1. Plot Hook is not a limit. You don't get free character points just because it gives the GM something to work with. 2. I can kind of see where he is going with the "only God's permission" idea, but in a Champs game this is better served by putting a Disadvantage: Bound to Gods(Gods will remove powers) than a true limit on the individual powers. The "only if gods will" thing just doesn't come up enough.

 

These changes will make the character much more expensive but you may have to remind him that not every character can be ideally built on 350. Superman sure can't. You have to start off lower and grow into it.

[McManus]

Re: Character out of balance

 

These changes will make the character much more expensive but you may have to remind him that not every character can be ideally built on 350. Superman sure can't. You have to start off lower and grow into it.

 

That is something you don't see a lot in comics (if you discount the switch from Golden to Silver age Superman). Few characters become more powerful over time. Instead they grow more skilled, better connected, more knowledgeable. This is a generality, but seems to hold. Spiderman's powers have not changed significantly over the 40+ years he has been around, neither have Flash, or The Thing, or Namor.

 

XP in a four color campaign are interesting because in some ways they are counter to the source material. Just one of the differences between comics and games I guess.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Character out of balance

 

That is something you don't see a lot in comics (if you discount the switch from Golden to Silver age Superman). Few characters become more powerful over time. Instead they grow more skilled' date=' better connected, more knowledgeable. This is a generality, but seems to hold. Spiderman's powers have not changed significantly over the 40+ years he has been around, neither have Flash, or The Thing, or Namor. [/quote']

 

As well, to the extent the characters do become more powerful, they seem to become less powerful with roughly equal frequency. To take your examples:

 

- Flash was, in the mid-1980's, reduced to about the speed of sound, could not vibrate to noncorporealness or similar stunts, and needed enough food to replace the lost energy. He ultimately recovered his powers, and they were enhanced, via increased connection to the Speed Force, but the de-powering was as permanent as anything in comics. The Jay Garrick Flash is presently experiencing a similar power-down.

 

- Namor, in the '70's, lost his ability to breathe air leading to his new costume, which also kept him hydrated. In the '90's. a diagnosis that fluctuating pressures contributed to his mood swings kept him out of the ocean depths.

 

- The Thing has been powered up and powered down on numerous occasions.

[Haerandir]

Re: Character out of balance

 

Likewise, Spiderman has gained and lost gadgetry at a fairly astonishing rate over the last 40 years.

[McManus]

Re: Character out of balance

 

But that is all different than the steady increase in power that you see in most Champions characters. Spiderman, for instance, started out as STR40, DEX30, SPD7 (to pull fairly random numbers out of my hat). Except for the occasional overpowering (Firelord, Captain Universe, Man-Spider, etc) which seem more attributable to writer/plot needs, he has stayed in that same range. He has bought CSLs, Skills, Contacts, and Perks. But his basic powers and power levels are pretty much the same. The same can be said of most of the Heroes in Comics. I am not sure I can think of many who have shown a steady increase in power numbers or levels (Dr. Strange being one, but that fits some how. As he gained knowledge and artifacts he gained powers).

 

De-powering as a writer decides that a character is too powerful is not uncommon, but it is also not usually permanent. Eventually they want Superman to be able to move a planet again (or at least a moon). If you were to graph character power levels over time the line would fluctuate but tend towards flat. Where as if you were to graph many champions characters the line would show a steady upwards trend, Often they start street level or somewhat higher (200-350) and if played long enough end up world shaking power levels (500-1000).

[GamePhil]

Re: Character out of balance

 

You forgot Iron Man, who has also gained steadily in powers over the years. Not that two is enough to dispute your basic point or anything.

[OddHat]

Re: Character out of balance

 

Shame that it's not possible to post a link to the Pointless Champions article.

 

Personally, I find that starting at the power level where I want the character to be and just assigning extras in big chunks when the story calls for it would work fine to simulate much, but not all, fiction. In fantasy and martial arts stories in particular, the story is of the rise from child to adult, student to master; in those settings, an XP system is built into the style of story telling.

 

However, HERO campaigns are games; If your players like XP and an increase in power over time, that alone is enough to justify having it.