Future submarine warfare?

[tkdguy]

In this forum we usually talk about spacecraft and interstellar travel with good reason. But since there is such a thing as earthbound science fiction, let's go under the sea for a bit.

 

How do you think submarine warfare will be like in the future? Will there be any significant changes?

 

One advantage we have with this type of campaign is that we already have this technology. We have nuclear-powered subs and missiles. We also don't need to worry about gravity or FTL.

 

Any thoughts or comments on this?

[L. Marcus]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

. . . Improved sensoring technology might make the subs unable to hide from satellites in the long run . . . That's just my first thought. Otherwise, in the near future, it will just be more of the same, but taken up another notch. And as for Predators and other long-range drones, they could provide round-the-clock air surveillance for surface battle groups and convoys . . .

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

. . . Improved sensoring technology might make the subs unable to hide from satellites in the long run . . . That's just my first thought. Otherwise' date=' in the near future, it will just be more of the same, but taken up another notch. And as for Predators and other long-range drones, they could provide round-the-clock air surveillance for surface battle groups and convoys . . .[/quote']

If you increase the lethality of satellite countermeasures then having subs would still be a viable option for first world powers. They would just be very vulnerable to a massive naval/missile first strike. Beyond that, provided the satellites could be knocked out then subs become more economical a propesition than replacing extremely expensive spy satellites and lofting them into orbit.

 

TB

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

I remember reading an article years ago on prospects for developing heavier-than-water submarines, using water foils similar to air foils to give them "lift" as they move through the water. The air-filled buoyant subs used today have the safety of dirigibles, but similarly limited speed and maneuverability. Heavier submarines might lead to small, highly hydrodynamic craft that could be launched form larger submarines like fighters, dogfighting each other and dodging torpedoes.

 

I'm not certain how practical that would be, but dang if it isn't a cool image.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

Seaquest. Plenty of inspiration there.

 

Anyone else like that show?

[tkdguy]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

It got campy in the first season. It seemed like the producers didn't know how much real science and how much sci-fi/fantasy/horror (they had ghosts and even Poseidon in that show!) to put in.

 

I liked it better in the 2nd and 3rd seasons, when they just decided to make it pure sci-fi. It became more consistent after that.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

Few things.

 

One, I would suggest that if you're going sub warfare, that you build in a great deal of undersea exploration/bases and what have you to go with it. One of the two good underwater games were Subwar 2050 (PC, 1995) and ... there was an old PC game I can't remember the name of which dealt with fighter-class submarines.

 

I think (and this is on the list of things I was considering for my campaign) that you could have a great deal of success simply adapting star-ship class ships to an underwater environment. If you want rubber physics, then you'll introduce Atlantean level technology, where the ships basically don't care that they're underwater, they behave like they're in an atmosphere. If you want to get deep into it, there's probably hundreds of thousands of pages on submarine warfare, including how to use thermal layers, bounce sonar, hide your presence, and so on.

 

Does that help?

[Yansuf]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

It is unlikely satellite (or air) sensors will be able to detect deep subs within our lifetimes. (Note, I didn't say impossible.)

The only really promising sensor that I am aware of is Blue-Green Laser based. While in theory this could work, in practice it is unlikely to be able to see deep subs because of the interface of the "layer" beneath the surface. Being able to work through both seems unlikely, within the foreseeable future at least. They probably will be able to detect subs near the surface within the next decade or so.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

how far in the future are we talking?

 

some ideas:

my traveller players never forgave me for the time they set down to do an ocean refuel on a low tech[6-7] world with a high law level, the guy on sensor duty yells over the intercom "High speed screws in teh water!!!" while the planet didnt have planetary defense spacecraft it had a fairly large fleet of assorted submarines, and even an early ww2 era torpedo will punch a hole in a unarmored starship hull. they kicked in the CG lifters and went straight up, avoiding the 3 torpedoes, but it got their attention

 

what about fitting out something similar to a Polaris or Trident boat, but instead of ICBM's, fitting it with space combat and or planetary defense missiles? fitted with a caterpillar drive or advanced MHD drive, you could fit sensor floats and even laser floats

 

I see them as being used for last ditch system defense craft among other things

[LoresLost]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

This thread reminds me of some Traveller material I read on the "wet" navy and submarines. Subs where used as mobile anti orbital launch platforms, but could be detected by mason and neutrino detection systems used on Traveller capital ships so the subs used very advance battery systems to run during combat and use fusion reactors for recharge and to fire the spinal mounted Mason cannon at enemies in orbit. ( Mason cannons in Traveller fired through most defenses to cause internal damage (it ignored intervening mater)Only Black and White Globe Generators could stop a mason gun )

 

But for the actual question posted:

So for a pure sub based story I would go with small fusion reactors, magnetic inductance drives, 60 + knots subsurface speed, underwater cites (in pressure domes), for basic technology. Addtionally, I would use advance Magnetic anomaly detection systems to find most other subs and cities (active SONAR being outlawed due to environmental damage.) I would use the standurd plot points dealing with under sea mining, political intrigue, pirates, business intrigue, lost cities and environmental plots.

 

I would Use the Hunt for Red October, Voyage to the Bottom of Sea, and pulp under sea adventures for ideas, if I where to run such a campaign. May be some elements of the Man from Atlantis would be used as well to add to the adventure of it all.

 

I think spewed enough random thoughts on subs in Sci-Fi environments for a few minutes and may expand them if I feel I was unclear. or find a glaring grammar, spelling or logical error (all of which are common for me.)

[Starwolf]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

One of my favorite shows used to Voyage to the bottom of the sea, I loved the whole flying sub concept.

 

Then along cam sea quest and it was also very cool.

 

One thing to remember... it is very easy to make sub surface vehicles go faster. A Seawolf class sub can move in excess of 40 knots... but the faster you go the noisier it gets. This cannot be avoided. it is called cavitation. Some drive types like the caterpiller drive can lessen the effect a little, but it cannot be completely eradicated. That is why a sub going completely silent bottoms out or hovers and quites moving.

[Vondy]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

The navy is putting a lot of research into supercavitation.

 

Right now its primarily used for torpedoes (the russians have a supercavitating torpedo), but there is a lot of speculation that it may be applied to vehicles as well. If you can generate enough speed, stealth becomes an option as opposed to a necessity.

 

The video game Deep Angel is based on speculative applications of supercavitation. In fact, they noted on their site that DARPA announced plans to develop a supercavitating submarine and used imagery from the video game!

[Manic Typist]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

some ideas:

my traveller players never forgave me for the time they set down to do an ocean refuel on a low tech[6-7] world with a high law level, the guy on sensor duty yells over the intercom "High speed screws in teh water!!!" while the planet didnt have planetary defense spacecraft it had a fairly large fleet of assorted submarines, and even an early ww2 era torpedo will punch a hole in a unarmored starship hull. they kicked in the CG lifters and went straight up, avoiding the 3 torpedoes, but it got their attention

 

 

 

Why did the subs open fire on them?

 

Neat bit, by the way.

[Sundog]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

One thing you could explore is the interceptor-torpedo concept. Having secondary tubes firing short-range interceptors at the big shipkillers could make a battle sub much more survivable (and B-G lasers for the next layer of defence, perhaps..?)

[Old Man]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

This all sounds very cool

[Kaeto]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

No love for Stingray?

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

High Law Level world, nobody on the merchant bothered to ask permission to refuel, and nobody was running a comm watch aboard ship, so they never heard the "guard" band radio traffic demanding they ID themselves etc..

soi the locals assumed they were hostile, and a P3 or Neptune equivilant in the area passed an ELF transmission to a wolfpack on manuevers in the area, the wolfpack consisted of 3 guppy equivilants and a surcouf equivilant, they had been upgraded with upgraded electronics and wire guided torps

[Yansuf]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

One thing to remember... it is very easy to make sub surface vehicles go faster. A Seawolf class sub can move in excess of 40 knots... but the faster you go the noisier it gets. This cannot be avoided. it is called cavitation. Some drive types like the caterpiller drive can lessen the effect a little' date=' but it cannot be completely eradicated. That is why a sub going completely silent bottoms out or hovers and quites moving.[/quote']

 

Actually, cavitation is a different problem. It concerns the speed of the screws. It can be partly overcome today, and there are many possible ways to overcome it in the future.

However, flow noise does increase as the sub goes faster. There may be some way to beat this, but I cannot think of one. (There are ways to decrease flow noise, but whatever level you decrease it to, it still increases with increasing speed.) That is the reason the undersea "fighter" has never been developed, it is too noisy.

If you generate noise, passive sonar can find you. Some modern subs are "holes in the water", which means their normal level of sound emissions is equal too or less than the ambient sound level of the ocean. But no sub can maintain that while moving at high speed.

Not to mention that at high speed you greatly degrade (or even render useless) your own sonar.

[Yansuf]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

One thing you could explore is the interceptor-torpedo concept. Having secondary tubes firing short-range interceptors at the big shipkillers could make a battle sub much more survivable (and B-G lasers for the next layer of defence' date=' perhaps..?)[/quote']

 

Such is being worked on today, I have never understood what makes it so hard.

Blue Green Lasers are a possible point defense weapon for subs (and surface ships); another (possibly easier to get operational) is a sonic disrupter.

[Lemurion]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

Martin Caidin wrote a couple of books about negative buoyancy submarines that were pretty good. They provided a great image of "subfighters."

 

One was called "Aquarius Mission," and I can't remember the title of the other one right now.

[Old Man]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

Conversely I expect near-future orbital warfare to be a lot like submarine warfare. With the advent of stealth technology, military satellites will be next to impossible to detect unless they move or shoot or employ some kind of active detection system. So you'll have stealthy "boomer" satellites orbiting over the cities they are meant to destroy, and killersats roaming the sky looking for them...

[Old Man]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

Yeah just drop a few THOR javelins on Iranian nuclear facilities, problem solved.

[LunaRagno]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

I think the most important foreseeable change is improved sensors in submarines.

 

Type one is improved signal processing: bettered ability to find the important noises from amid all the unimportant ones. This is computer driven.

 

Type two is non-sonar sensors: radiation detection is the chief of these.

[sinanju]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

. . . Improved sensoring technology might make the subs unable to hide from satellites in the long run . . . That's just my first thought. Otherwise' date=' in the near future, it will just be more of the same, but taken up another notch. And as for Predators and other long-range drones, they could provide round-the-clock air surveillance for surface battle groups and convoys . . .[/quote']

 

I tend to agree--subs depend on hiding to survive. Any time a sub can be tracked, it can be killed. That's been the case since they were invented. And given how detector tech is advancing, the oceans are becoming more and more transparent. I expect that in the not too distant future, subs simply won't be able to hide from the enemy any longer. And when that day comes, subs will be as obsolete as biplanes.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Future submarine warfare?

 

So, subs will become firmly entrenched in the territory of Pulp!