Demonsong Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 How do you know when to Dive for Cover? As a general rule I will not let characters Dive for Cover in abusive ways. Like avoiding hand to hand attacks (that’s what Dodge is for)….ect. But I have come to the conclusions that I may be too lenient in letting them do it vs. area effect attacks. Obviously if the NPC’s are throwing (or launching) grenades if a save bet you should/could Dive for Cover. But what about the energy projector that has an exploding lighting bolt? If the PC’s have never seen said energy projector fire an exploding lighting bolt how they would know to Dive for Cover. Especially if the said energy projectors normal lighting bolt and explosive lighting bolt look the same. The same question could be asked about all area effect attacks. How do you know that this one hex area effect entangle is not the same as the normal entangle that was just shot at you? Am I worrying to much about this? Should I just let the PC’s Dive away? Should I require a Perception roll? How do you as a GM handle this? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Well remember you can dive for cover vs non-area effect attacks as well. But I would make them decide if they are going to take any defensive actions before any dice are rolled. The first inkling that something is area effect (barring appropriate KS, senses etc) is you saying "OK, that hit the hex. Fast guy you take X damage." This means that they will be diving away from some attacks they didn't need to, and they will not dive sometimes when they should have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirViss Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Well, I actually take for granted that a straight EB and an AoE EB will have something that differentiates them, even if they have the same SFX and they are in a MP. This is a classic scene from comics, where an Energy Projector was blasting away and suddenly he throws an energy ball. "I wonder what that is going to do?" says the hero. Now, I would make the caveat that the first time an AoE (dependending on SFX) they will probably not know that Diving for Cover would be a good idea. Be careful, the players will probably turn the tables on you at one point: "How did Black Paladin know to Dive for Cover?" "Huh..." And if your players DfC alot, remember that after that action they are at ½DCV until there next action! All those Held Action become very useful at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneon Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Be careful, the players will probably turn the tables on you at one point: "How did Black Paladin know to Dive for Cover?" "Huh..." [/b] Thats simple...your a super hero right? You've been in this city for how long? Yea you've been on TV during a fight he knows what your gonna try to pull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Re: How do you know when to Dive for Cover? Originally posted by Demonsong As a general rule I will not let characters Dive for Cover in abusive ways. Like avoiding hand to hand attacks (that’s what Dodge is for)….ect. IMO, that's your problem right there. I see no reason not to allow them to Dive to avoid hand-to-hand attacks. Unlike a Dodge, it has a chance of failure (however small), and it leaves them prone and hideously open to attack from any other direction. In practice, I don't think most players will have their character Dive For Cover unless it's really their only choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelleyCM Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Oh, Lordie! This was the source of one of the most heated arguments Matthew and I (married over 10 years) have had, a long ways back. (Well, not terribly heated, but it was a long-running argument!) He was very lenient with Diving for Cover (based on what happens in movies); I was very strict (what it says in the rules). The only way we could compromise was to let it work one way in my games and the other in his. -Shelley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 When the hairs stand up on the back of your neck:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Re: Oh, Lordie! Originally posted by ShelleyCM I was very strict (what it says in the rules). Luckily in 5th Edition, it's very clear in the rules that Dive For Cover is allowed against any kind of attack. (Doesn't mean any particular GM has to allow it, but at least it's clear what the "official" rule is.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelleyCM Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Re: Re: Oh, Lordie! Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth Luckily in 5th Edition, it's very clear in the rules that Dive For Cover is allowed against any kind of attack. (Doesn't mean any particular GM has to allow it, but at least it's clear what the "official" rule is.) I know -- trust me, it was the first thing Matthew checked! He will smugly remind me that it's been "fixed" if the topic ever comes up. -Shelley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Re: Oh, Lordie! Originally posted by ShelleyCM This was the source of one of the most heated arguments Matthew and I (married over 10 years) have had, a long ways back. (Well, not terribly heated, but it was a long-running argument!) He was very lenient with Diving for Cover (based on what happens in movies); I was very strict (what it says in the rules). The only way we could compromise was to let it work one way in my games and the other in his. -Shelley Looks like hubby won that 1 in the end (as FREd makes it legal to D4C vs anything). Yay! Its not often our side gets to win a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Heh... my players haven't read that rules change yet, so I'm still getting away with things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Well, when the bad guys pull out a round object, pull a pin, clutch it for a moment and then throw it at the ground instead of at you -- it might be a good idea to Dive For Cover The point being, sometimes there are visual clues that the attack being sent your way is Area Effect. Evil GM's have been known to use this to their advantage, making the players Dive away from Image grenades... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 I'm generally pretty forgiving about this as I take a fairly cinematic view as a game master -- If makes for cool visuals I'm all for it. Like a dodge, if the character is aware of the attack and hasn't attacked in that segment I let them go for it. If they're suprised they're hosed. Mwahahahahahaha!!!! An example: After a succesful hearing perception roll: Me: "You're examining the contents of the crate - mostly packing materials and cheap trinkets to sell to tourists - when you hear a deep "ka-thoomp, ka-thoomp" outside and the distinct breaking of glass. You recognized the sound as a grenade launcher being fired." Player: "Grenades? Oh, crap." Me: "Do you want to dive for cover...?" Player: Winks at me and gives me the good idea: "hearing the grenade launcher Midnight runs for towards the nearby forklift and makes a desperate leap for safety...." Me: "That's four hexes away so its a minus four on your to hit roll. You need a 13 or less." Player: Rolls a 12. Me: "Midnight crashes into the concete floor and skids behind the forklift just in time. Flame and heat fills the space you were previously occupying and the world around you is filled with shrapnel. Your shoulder stings from where a razor piece of metal cut into your arm, tearing your costume and bloodying your sleeve [no damage, just sfx]. It was close, but you are basically unharmed..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 In the days of the BBB, Dive For Cover really had the potential to be abused. Failure burned a phase, maybe even just a half phase, but other than that, the benefits outweighed any drawbacks. Hand to hand turned into "catch me if you can", and in most instances, the half move knocked ranged combat into the next range penalty bracket. It made Dodge almost pointless, especially in single combat; why bother when you can cancel an attack outright? At least now if you fail your roll your opponent has a better chance of hitting. It works better, and fits into the more maneuverable combat system of FREd. Characters with low to mid range DEX are better off Dodging- they might blow their DEX roll- but high DEX characters can bounce around the battlefield avoiding attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 I was going to just link to my houserules, but I forgot to put in my house rules about Diving from non-area attacks. I just treat it as a dodge for that attack, after the attack, you're where you dove to. I also allow multiple dives (like blocks) and you get a DEX roll to stay on your feet. And diving from prone position is allowed. Also in my game, you know if it's an area attack before any dice are rolled and you get to know where the area is going to start from in case of misses. So I guess this puts me in lenient, but with some provisions. It also deflates any arguments, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlacKlily Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Mentalist vs Tank I like the 5th addtions rules alot. They put in alot of stuff we put in a house rule to clarify things, like dive for cover. the funny part of it is my mentallist tends to dive for cover most often, and my armored tank guy poses and takes it..I will be taking advantage of that and wrote up a villian just for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loki Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Re: How do you know when to Dive for Cover? Originally posted by Demonsong How do you know when to Dive for Cover? As a general rule I will not let characters Dive for Cover in abusive ways. Like avoiding hand to hand attacks (that’s what Dodge is for)….ect. But I have come to the conclusions that I may be too lenient in letting them do it vs. area effect attacks. Obviously if the NPC’s are throwing (or launching) grenades if a save bet you should/could Dive for Cover. But what about the energy projector that has an exploding lighting bolt? If the PC’s have never seen said energy projector fire an exploding lighting bolt how they would know to Dive for Cover. Especially if the said energy projectors normal lighting bolt and explosive lighting bolt look the same. The same question could be asked about all area effect attacks. How do you know that this one hex area effect entangle is not the same as the normal entangle that was just shot at you? Am I worrying to much about this? Should I just let the PC’s Dive away? Should I require a Perception roll? How do you as a GM handle this? Thanks It sounds like from reading this that you are having a problem with your players Diving for Cover too much. If this is the case, simply make them pay for having done so. If they continue to dive for cover, then (as someone mentionied) hit them when theyare at 1/2 CV with those pesky held actions, or just have the enemy brick load up and wack em a good one. Happy hunting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerennialRook Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 How about diving for cover, not knowing of any attacks as of yet, after a full move. Raven, after having been shot at by 30+ guards and a tank trying to walk out the front door, decides caution is his best bet when he tries the back door. Turning invisible, he hits the back door and dives to the side as the closing door is riddled with bullets from the other half of the building's security team. Legal? -Preston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by PerennialRook How about diving for cover, not knowing of any attacks as of yet, after a full move. Raven, after having been shot at by 30+ guards and a tank trying to walk out the front door, decides caution is his best bet when he tries the back door. Turning invisible, he hits the back door and dives to the side as the closing door is riddled with bullets from the other half of the building's security team. Sure, though I wouldn't make Raven make a dive for cover roll. It's a very genre thing to do and since he's invisible I'd probably just say they all miss unless I want to tempt fate. Then I'd see if any of the agents rolls a three. (Very easy to do, just roll a die for each agent, rerolls ones, then reroll any of those ones. The last batch of ones will be your lucky hits) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Keneton Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Lets go Divin! I do not find Dive in Fred to be abusive. At first I was shocked to see the change allowing HTH attcks to miss, but it does make sense. I have allowed it and I think you will find it not too bad if you try (like green eggs and ham). Knowing when is a bigger issue. I believe special effects are the issue here. Can the character tell the attack type? In superheroes, we can see and dodge bullets! I would in general allow the character the chance to percieve the type of attack out of playability. If you dont like this give a 0 phase perception roll. If the chracter makes it he can percieve if the target is him or the hex. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVonDoom Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 when someone is shooting at you? (muzzleflashes, laserbeams, ...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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