Villain SIDs

[bigdamnhero]

More 3am musings:

 

What happens in your world when a supervillain is arrested? Is his/her secret ID revealed to the public? Kept on file by the government, but not released publically? Or just ignored? I was just wondering how any villain who's been arrested before could still have a secret identity?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

It would be released as a matter of public record.

 

Starting out villains could maintain a Secret ID, but once they're caught that's pretty much blown. In some cases I could see it changing to a Public ID, but in most cases it would just become "no ID" - some cops and others familiar with them might recognize them in civvies, but many folks wouldn't.

 

If the villain then establishes a new cover identity, they could have a new Secret ID.

[Chimpira]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

The ID would be cataloged but not released to the public just off the basis of an arrest. After a trial and the villian is found guilty then the identity would be a matter of public record. During the trial most lawyers in my world try to suppress the fact that the person on trial was indeed a super villian, some succeed and some fail but it weighs heavily on the mind of any juror that the person there put on a costume and tried to make an illegal withdrawal from a bank. (If this sounds absurd, you should try and sit through a real trial where the lawyer suppress all types of information deemed "not pertinent" to a case) Bear in mind that the person is being accused of a crime and he/she might not have done the crime as positive identification is shaky at best in most cases. (The perp wore a costume that concealed his features)

 

This way I can frame and capture the PC's without their identity going public.

[wcw43921]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

If I remember my Revised Villains & Vigilantes correctly, a Secret ID Hero who was arrested and charged with a crime would have his secret protected unless he was convicted--just in case a mistake was made. A Secret ID Villain who was arrested and tried was extended the same courtesy--just in case he was coreced, or mind-controlled, or something like that.

 

I could also see a supervillain's ID protected from exposure as part of a plea bargain--"Plead guilty to all these lesser charges and we'll keep your secret ID. Plus you serve your sentence at the ADX in Florence instead of Stronghold. Do we have a deal?"

[Funksaw]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

Typically anything that comes out in the middle of a trial - whether or not it's a secret, is considered a matter of public record.

 

This is very interesting because not only are people charged under their legal names - not their alias, but also they have a right, in U.S. (and most Western) courts to face their accuser, who must also testify under a legal name.

 

Essentially, in order for a superhero to testify in a court of law, the defendant must knowingly waive that right. I could see, in a superheroic universe, a case where a villian would "trade" his right to face his accusers in exchange for a stipulation by the prosecution that his actual identity is not of consequence and will remain a 'trade secret' during the trial.

 

Oddly enough, crooks with public IDs (or at least, no Secret IDs) would find this system to their advantage as they could indeed force a hero to testify and reveal his public ID.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

Actually, the eye-witness issue is an interesting one. Let's face it - eye-witness (or even camera) testimony regarding convicting any supervillain is practically useless, assuming your defense lawyer has half an ounce of sense.

 

You come into court and are asked to ID John Smith at the defense table in a suit who you last saw wearing a costume and calling himself The Blue Bandito.

 

If you *can* say it was the guy, you ought to be charged with perjury just on principle - how can you *possibly* say that it was the same guy?

 

Video evidence runs into the same issue, especially if he uses a Radio Shack (or, heck, toy store) voice changer.

 

That takes it down *purely* to the level of the super's/cop's testimony that this really was the guy who was wearing the costume - and that guy not testifying that he was duped/mind controlled into wearing it after the robbery.

 

Similarly, the defense *could* successfully lobby the judge to suppress any info about secret identities of any sort on the basis of it being prejudicial evidence, which pretty well takes out the idea of the heroes maintaining their ID's. After all - if you were a juror and, say, Iron Man or Superman was testifying against some guy he *says* he pulled out of Doctor Doom's armor, wouldn't you be more likely to believe him than Tony Stark or Clark Kent?

 

Why, for all the judge knows, the guy wearing that armor or costume *now* wasn't even the guy wearing it at the arrest!

 

So... all things considered, I think we can see why it is that supervillains get out of jail so often and easily. :-P

[PhaseKitty]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

This is very interesting because not only are people charged under their legal names - not their alias' date=' but also they have a right, in U.S. (and most Western) courts to face their accuser, who must also testify under a legal name. [/quote']

 

Not so true as you think.

 

The US Supreme Court has (more than once I think) allowed "Testimony by deposition" where the "witness" doesn't have to show in court, and what s/he says comes from a written document and the defense can't cross-examine (or has to give written questions that aren't answered for days).

 

AFAIK, so far this has only been for children (maybe and organized crime trials). I can see it being extended to govt.-approved "masked wo/men" in a world with supers.

 

But yeah so far the accused has to reveal her/himself, so supervillains are going to lose their Secret ID's. So are superheroes.

 

[Twilight]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

Actually, the eye-witness issue is an interesting one. Let's face it - eye-witness (or even camera) testimony regarding convicting any supervillain is practically useless, assuming your defense lawyer has half an ounce of sense.

 

You come into court and are asked to ID John Smith at the defense table in a suit who you last saw wearing a costume and calling himself The Blue Bandito.

 

If you *can* say it was the guy, you ought to be charged with perjury just on principle - how can you *possibly* say that it was the same guy?

 

 

Then the prosecuting attorny enters the testimony of the whichever police officer actually busted the Blue Bandito once the superhero turned him over to the cops. Y'know the testimony that says the officer removed the Blue Bandito's mask revealing that it was, in fact the defendent underneath the mask without a shadow of a doubt. The defense attorny looks stupid for persuing the above line of questioning and actually hurts the Bandito's case, rather then helping it.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

Assuming that the characters remembered to let the cop do it. Honestly? Most of 'em I've run into (when they make a clean capture) prefer the Scooby-Doo approach of unmasking the supervillain themselves.

 

And having the cop do the unmask still doesn't solve the problem of "how do you know that this guy who was found in this costume is the same one who robbed the bank?"

 

It all depends on how you decide to run it, obviously.

 

Personally, I figure that legislation would be put in place similar to that which exists for sex offenders - you're convicted, you're put into the database, and once you get out folks have to be warned that you're out.

 

How widespread/widely remembered the information actually gets is more questionable. I mean, sure, it's public record who Cheshire Cat is. But once he's arrested and released (for whatever reason) unless the Cheshire Cat starts committing more crimes, people aren't going to walk down the street and say "hey, it's Cheshire Cat!" Even if they hear the name, they'll probably figure that there are a lot of people with that name out there.

 

Maybe folks in his immediate area who've been told by the cops that he's out and what he's done will be more nervous, but....

 

Of course, when Cheshire Cat does start to commit crimes again, the cops will come to him first - but they still have to prove that he's the Cheshire Cat now, they can't just say "well, you were the Cheshire Cat, off you go back to Stronghold because the Cheshire Cat is back!"

 

Might be easier, might be able to get a warrant a bit more easily or on the basis of who he was, but that's the best you'll really be doing.

[Twilight]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

There isn't a problem establishing it's the same guy because the prosecuting attorny has probably already introduced the police testimony by this time. The same police testimony that establishes that yes, the defendant and the Blue Bandito are one and the same and that he was in fact apprehended while attempting to rob a bank.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

Any villain responsible for Sudden Infant Death syndrome deserves any punishment he gets!

[prodigyduck]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

A criminal super-power4ed being in Metaworld has as many rights as any other convicted criminal. That is to say, very little. Their identity is given out to all law-enforcement agencies.

 

Book 'em! You do the crime, you lose your rights to privacy.

[Narratio]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

Basic agreement with prodigyduck there. My villains tend to get built with no ID or even Public ID because of this.

 

Once arrested, the cops do full background searches looking for priors. His photo, finger prints, retinal scans, bloodwork and general DNA markers are all taken and filed for use by both prosecution and defense attorneys. If convicted or released, this info is still accessable. If found guilty, its public knowledge.

[David Johnston]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

Actually, the eye-witness issue is an interesting one. Let's face it - eye-witness (or even camera) testimony regarding convicting any supervillain is practically useless, assuming your defense lawyer has half an ounce of sense.

 

 

But then you could say the same thing about real life criminals who wear ski-masks and stocking masks and yet they manage to get convicted all the time.

 

It is true of course that Slade Wilson was acquitted of a crime on the grounds that even though he was known to wear a particular costume and a person wearing that costume with abilities similar to his did commit a crime, the Titans couldn't actually prove he was the one on that occasion. However the reason for that is because he wasn't captured at the scene of the crime and he didn't have any physical evidence of the crime on him. There was no "chain of custody".

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

Yeah, sounds like we're mostly thinking along the same lines. Yet this seems to go against genre convention to some degree, where supervillains sometimes seem to maintain Secret IDs even after many arrests. Forex, half the villains in CKC are listed as having SIDs even tho they have been arrested before. Does anyone have any plausible ideas for how to make this work?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

The villain could have adopted a new alias and costume after his first arrest, unconnected to his previous one.

 

Or, for reasons of national security or national embarrassment (the villain knows something that the government doesn't want revealed), the villain was never tried in open court. Certain government agencies know who she is, but her identity is not a matter of public record.

 

Or, the villain could have been arrested over something not directly connected to his supervillain activities, like Al Capone being sentenced for tax fraud. Maybe the villain was in possession of stolen merchandise or had been discovered hacking sensitive computer records, but never actually caught committing a crime while in his costumed ID.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

Assuming that the characters remembered to let the cop do it. Honestly? Most of 'em I've run into (when they make a clean capture) prefer the Scooby-Doo approach of unmasking the supervillain themselves.

So are they then prepared to have the villains return the favor when the heroes get captured? Besides, the results would be somewhat anti-climatic more often than not: "And Doctor Death is really......some guy I've never seen before!"

 

How widespread/widely remembered the information actually gets is more questionable. I mean' date=' sure, it's public record who Cheshire Cat is. But once he's arrested and released (for whatever reason) unless the Cheshire Cat starts committing more crimes, people aren't going to walk down the street and say "hey, it's Cheshire Cat!" Even if they hear the name, they'll probably figure that there are a lot of people with that name out there.[/quote']

But anyone who knows Bob Johanssen from his personal life now knows he's Cheshire Cat. So he might not automatically qualify for Public ID unless the case was particularly notorius, but certainly no Secret ID anymore.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

The villain could have adopted a new alias and costume after his first arrest' date=' unconnected to his previous one.[/quote']

True. Tho if his power set is in anyway distinctive, it might not take much of a Deduction roll to see through this one. "That's funny, this new villain Firestarter seems to have the same powers as Flamestrike, who coincidentally was just paroled last month..."

 

I like the other suggestions, tho.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

So are they then prepared to have the villains return the favor when the heroes get captured? Besides' date=' the results would be somewhat anti-climatic more often than not: "And Doctor Death is really......some guy I've never seen before!" [/quote']

 

Well, if you're unmasked on TV (Jimmy Dugan - still filming!) and it makes the national news, I'm guessing someone will recognize the unmasked villain or hero.

 

Even if it's SOP for heroes, and not villains, how often are heroes mistaken for villains and forced to fight other heroes. "Gosh, we're sorry we were taken in by Dr. Diabolical's evil plot to frame you. Oh, and sorry about unmasking all of you on live TV. Hope your Aunt recovers from her heart attack soon, Peter."

 

I wonder how many PC's would still have DNPC's after their Hunteds know who they really are.

[Blue]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

Bast v. The State of Georgia and Empire v. FBI, Bill Clinton, et al. are the cases on point.

 

The former held that a captured criminal on trial for a crime may not have his/her identity revealed unless it bears directly on the crime itself (In this case, the fact that Bast's normal ID was a humane society worker obsessed with felines was proven to be part of the motivation for the crime in question). Once convicted of a felony, such IDs are public record.

 

The latter ruled that if someone is reasonably believed to be a wanted supervillain the police and other authorities may publish their name and likeness as part of the manhunt, but it does not adjoin them from being sued for defamation later on in the event that said villain does not turn out to be said individual. Therefore the Gov is very careful about whose name they reveal and typicall don't do so until there's a conviction or they are virtually certain of someone's identity.

 

There's also Phobos v. Phoenix P.D., a civil case in which the Phoenix Police Department were proven to have attempted to plant evidence on the hero Phobos so that they could photograph and track him, as was a practice with all masked "vigilantes" of the area. Phobos won, the Police Commisioner was ousted, and Phobos had to adopt a new heroic ID. Note also that this caused the Police Commissioner to become the villainous "Magistrate", a villain who hunts down lone heroes and exposes them.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

OK, lemme try this one:

 

In our world, you have some legal right to call yourself by a pseudonym if you so wish. As long as you are using that name for non-fraudulant reasons, it can even be considered a legal name for some purposes. However, pesudonyms have no legal basis in a court of law.

 

But in a world where masked heroes are a regular part of the landscape – not to mention the criminal justice system – I can see that changing. Maybe laws have been passed giving judges discretion to rule that a person’s established “Nom de Guerre” has as much legal standing as their anthroponym (full legal name). This doesn’t mean that any Schmo can, upon his arrest, suddenly claim that he wishes to be tried under the name of “Doctor Bad***.” It has to be an established identity; if more people have heard of “Ankylosaur” than have heard of “Paul Bressler” then the judge may rule that Ankylosaur is a legal Nom de Guerre, and he may be tried under that Nom de Guerre for any crimes committed under that identity.

 

Either way, I can’t imagine villain’s identities not being established & confirmed by the police and the courts. So even if that info is never released to the general public, the government is going to know that Ankylosaur is also Paul Bressler. So if Ankylosaur goes back to his old tricks, PRIMUS is going to come looking for Paul.

 

This could also be a mechanism for allowing superhero testimony. More people have heard of Spider-Man than have heard of Peter Parker, so the court can rule that Spider-Man is a legally-established Nom de Guerre: Spidey can testify to any activities undertaken in that persona without having to reveal his SID. Taking it a step further, if Spider-Man is a legally valid name, they might even decide that the mask constitutes Spider-Man’s “true” face (as distinct from Peter’s face). So superheroes can testify while masked as long as they do so under oath, are available for cross-examination, etc.

 

…Of course, the downside of this is that I would prefer not to have my superheroes spend half their time in court, even if it all happens off-camera. So maybe we’re better off not allowing superhero testimony at all.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

…Of course' date=' the downside of this is that I would prefer [u']not[/u] to have my superheroes spend half their time in court, even if it all happens off-camera. So maybe we’re better off not allowing superhero testimony at all.

Pursuing this a little off-topic, can anyone come up with a plausible system for a reasonable facsimile of the United States in a superhero world to have, that lets secret ID/nongovernmental superheroes stop the bad guys and get them convicted, but doesn't tie them (the heroes) up in court? The only thing I can think of is a special court system for metahuman crime, which uses telepaths, retrocogs, or something similar to convict captured criminals without any testimony from the heroes necessary.

 

I'd really like to keep things at that Scooby-Doo/Spider-Man level, where all you have to do is catch 'em and the cops/Primus/whatever come and cart them off... but I'd kind of like to have something at least semi-plausible, too.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

For my own campaigns, I generally just downplay any time that the PCs might spend in court, much as most police dramas do. Unless you actually want to roleplay the trial for some plot-related reason, you can just assume or mention that the heroes have done their civic duty in the same "offscreen" time that they devote to their other mundane activities.

 

That said, if supervillains were caught with clear physical evidence of their crimes, and/or in the presence of duly authorized officers of the law, most such cases would be solid enough that the heroes likely wouldn't need to be called to testify. Certainly there are enough real-world cases where all available witnesses aren't called upon.

[Rapier]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

That kind of depends on how much information the individual actually has.

 

When someone is arrested they show up in the local paper on the Police Blotter (eg "Vinny DiMarco, aka The Shredder, was arrested on Thursday as he was walking down Central Ave. Police arrested him on suspicion of his matching a description given by customers who were present when the First National Bank was robbed. Customers and employees of the bank described the asailant as a tall white man in a silver suit covered with knives and blades."). So people that read the Police Blotter may know the name, but not the face.

 

What happens after that? For the most part, unless the trial is unusual in some manner (and lets face it, some big tall guy with a knife blade suit is rather unusual), the general public won't know about it.

 

Even if the person is convicted, the general public will not have access to any kind of records to search for the information. I would give most people some kind Memory roll (modified INT), to remember.

 

Ok, all that was mostly for the Secret ID bit.

 

My main campaign-verse has tried a couple of different methods (including microchips, bracelets, barcodes and other tracking devices). The problem is that these guys are villains. They have no problem breaking the law so defeat whatever method you choose rather readily. The criminals that don't/can't defeat the tracking methods are usually of such low quality/calibre that they are, for the most part, beneath the notice and use of the group (unless you need an informant, neh?).

[transmetahuman]

Re: Villain SIDs

 

For my own campaigns' date=' I generally just downplay any time that the PCs might spend in court, much as most police dramas do. Unless you actually want to roleplay the trial for some plot-related reason, you can just assume or mention that the heroes have done their civic duty in the same "offscreen" time that they devote to their other mundane activities. [/quote']Yeah, that's the default I always assumed. That, or that all effective superheroes are basically cops/agents of law-enforcement - the most plausible scenario, but one which players tend to dislike intensely.

 

But it does raise questions (as this thread shows), whether you deal with them "on-screen" or not - testifying in secret ID in particular. Also lots of supers that really can't, or shouldn't, testify in person for one reason or another (sun-fryable vampires, wanted criminals themselves, a predictable court appearance being an invitation to ambush, etc). And if I'm going to twist and rend plausibility in support of genre convention anyway, I'd rather make one unlikely assumption that singles out metahumans (or whatever), than add lots of unlikely laws to let masks testify and still have to deal with all the other ways court appearances can mess things up.

 

Edit: My other plan was just to convince the players to concentrate on preventing crimes-in-progress, with the more subtle villains just getting away scot-free. But I'm afraid that'd lead to a lot fewer CvKs...