Question: Must I model everything I own?

[Wolfgar]

I know this topic has probably been discussed to death before, but I can't seem to find any specific threads on the topic. If anyone could point me in the right direction, it would be really appreciated.

 

The book says that Superhero characters buy all their equipment with CPs rather than with money. My question is, when exactly does this cut off? Is there anything a character can reasonably assume to have for free? Do I really have to do a whole write-up for breath mints?

 

As sort of a sub-question, does a superhero character have to buy a Base just to have somewhere to live? If they don't plop down the points for a base, are they homeless? If not, where is the cut-off between what's a base and what's not?

 

I appreciate any answers you can give me on this.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

I don't GM Superheroic, but I'd say that things that you expect to use with some regularity should be bought with points. Arms, armor . . . For a SF campaign, towels . . .

 

And on a similar note -- a basic house isn't a base. The converted abandoned subway station underneath it -- that's a base.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

I know this topic has probably been discussed to death before, but I can't seem to find any specific threads on the topic. If anyone could point me in the right direction, it would be really appreciated.

 

The book says that Superhero characters buy all their equipment with CPs rather than with money. My question is, when exactly does this cut off? Is there anything a character can reasonably assume to have for free? Do I really have to do a whole write-up for breath mints?

 

As sort of a sub-question, does a superhero character have to buy a Base just to have somewhere to live? If they don't plop down the points for a base, are they homeless? If not, where is the cut-off between what's a base and what's not?

 

I appreciate any answers you can give me on this.

 

For me (in a Superhero genre) the cut-off is generally "cheap mundane items of no pratical combat use" and anything else that the players can fast-talk me into.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

The way I always run it (and I've seen a lot of other Champs GMs say the same) is that anything that any person in our society can acquire which does not have a significant impact during an adventure, and/or is not taken with the character while adventuring, is free to the character if he can justify being able to acquire it.

 

So, no writeups for breath mints under any circumstances. Apartments or houses are free, unless the hero has modified his domicile in some way that benefits his adventuring activities, e.g. laboratories, commo gear, reinforced walls, disguising very unusual features, etc. Normal, unmodified watches, cellphones, cars and the like are free unless the character frequently takes them with him and uses them on adventures. Flashlights, walkie-talkies, compasses, normal guns and that sort of thing are paid for with points if the character typically brings them along, since they're often useful on adventures.

 

Does that help?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

Your GM will probably allow some "Everyman Equipment," such as a cell phone, a basic home, a basic car, and so forth.

[gojira]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

The way I'd do it, is first look at the wealth (paid with points) for the character. Does the item make sense for the character to have? Even then, most items purchased with money are an "SFX" of that money and some what limited in play.

 

If your character bought 15 points of wealth, and then wants to fly the team to Aruba on his private jet, no problem. If you want to arm your private jet with missiles and soften up targets before the team lands, that's another issue. No missiles unless you paid points for your Bat-jet, and only then if the GM approves. Ditto with things like hiring helpers to carry your stuff into the mountains when sneaking up on the bad guy's fortress. Those guys are just going to be in the way when Dr. Nogood's mooks show up, and they'll require a lot of saving. Even if you arm them, they won't be of much use. (And the GM will point out the Followers option which you can pay CP for.)

 

On the other hand, ordinary stuff that anyone can have isn't a problem for me. Cell phones and flash lights are two biggies. Buy 'em, use 'em. They aren't worth paying points over. They do tend to get smooshed when the super stuff starts flying, but I'm not malicious about it. I'm just sort of inconvenient. I feel the same for other small items a character might want to carry. Pen and paper, calculators, zip loc bags, etc. Go nuts, I don't care.

 

Guns are a bit of an issue. They aren't terribly legal to just tote around in California anyway, so I can dodge out of the issue that way. But I'd certainly take some official position as GM and say "no" if a character was trying to carry to many (or even just one) weapons he didn't pay for. I would probably point out that even police and military can't normally wander around armed for no reason. They carry weapons as part of their job. No special privledges apply when they aren't working. And your CO will NOT be happy if you are caught sneaking stuff out of the armory. Bad idea, that.

[gojira]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

FYI, here are some other "points vs. money" debate threads that I recall:

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=659927

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38755

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44706

[KA.]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

Start with this:

Would/have other players paid for the same ability you are getting from your equipment?

Is there anything that makes your 'free' equipment inferior?

 

For example:

Your character buys a watch which basically only costs money, which doesn't really matter much in most game worlds.

My character pays Character points for Absolute Time Sense, through a Focus.

If both of us are exposed to some sort of EMP-effect, or very strong magnetic field, your watch should stop working, my Power should not, unless I took some sort of Limitation on it.

Also, if both of us are put into a cement mixer (and survive) your watch may very well be broken, but my Power should still work unless the Focus itself was 'targetted' in some way and took a certain amount of damage.

 

While it is a fun exercise for some people to model everything in the world, most of us only choose to model things that a reasonable person would agree that you should spend character points on.

 

And the reason for that is Balance.

 

Even though Hero is based on points, and you 'spend' them, the point of Character Creation is not to get the best 'deal'.

The Point is to create a character that fits your concept, is fun to play, and is fun for other people, Players and GM alike, to interact with in the game setting.

 

Here is a good example of a bad character.

 

SWAT Man

SWAT Man is an ex-SWAT team member who won the Lottery.

He used his money to design an awesome set of Battle Armor that increases his Strength, Dexterity, Speed, and provides a near-invulnerability to damage of any sort.

He basically put all his points into the OIF Battlesuit and a few combat skills.

And he bought Filthy Rich for 15 points.

So, based on his concept, and his Strength, SWAT Man can find a black market arms dealer and buy .50 Caliber Machine Guns, Rocket Launchers, Flamethrowers, Grenades, etc. etc. and pretty much mow down everything he faces.

He never gets hurt because his Armor is so strong, so he is better than the Brick character on the team, and he has more ability to do damage than the Blaster character, so both those people feel pretty useless during the game.

 

That is why people model important things with points, so they can be somewhat balanced by the points the GM gives you, and the other Players.

 

On the other hand, modeling everything with points is just silly and wasteful.

 

Another way to look at it is this:

Points are used for things (excluding Limitations) that your character ALWAYS has.

 

I, as a normal person, can assume that if I need to go to the SCUBA store and buy an air tank and mask, that I should be able to get one.

 

However, if there was a rash of Poison Gas attacks in my city, I might have a much harder time obtaining that equipment.

When SCUBA Man buys his Life Support - No need to Breathe, he knows he will always have it available, unless, for some reason the GM is running a plot where he loses it.

 

So, if it is important enough to your character that you can't get along without it, buy it with points, if not, buy it with money.

 

Another good example might be vehicles.

The Batmobile was definitely bought with points.

It may get damaged, but it always gets fixed and is available almost immediately when Batman needs it.

Police Cars are obviously bought with money.

Which is why you see a huge number of them get trashed in every action movie.

The Hero's car was bought with points, which is why it doesn't get destroyed.

 

Hope this helps,

 

KA.

[Zed-F]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

A note on cellphones and so forth.

 

If you don't spend points on it, but it's easily affordable, you can have a basic model. Just don't expect it to necessarily be reliable or secure. Easy come, easy go.

 

If you pay points for it, you can get better quality stuff, and it will be more reliable. If you take a 1-point perk you can have any normal item, and it can be as high-quality as is commercially available in the real world. If you buy it as a focus, it falls under the normal focus rules, and it's assumed always to be available unless I as GM factor in a specific plot point that makes it not available (i.e. I won't short it out randomly for no reason, it has to get targetted.)

[Funksaw]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

The way I always run it (and I've seen a lot of other Champs GMs say the same) is that anything that any person in our society can acquire which does not have a significant impact during an adventure, and/or is not taken with the character while adventuring, is free to the character if he can justify being able to acquire it.

 

So, no writeups for breath mints under any circumstances. Apartments or houses are free, unless the hero has modified his domicile in some way that benefits his adventuring activities, e.g. laboratories, commo gear, reinforced walls, disguising very unusual features, etc. Normal, unmodified watches, cellphones, cars and the like are free unless the character frequently takes them with him and uses them on adventures. Flashlights, walkie-talkies, compasses, normal guns and that sort of thing are paid for with points if the character typically brings them along, since they're often useful on adventures.

 

Does that help?

 

I typically draw the line in two ways: "Would this item be useful in combat," and "Could a reasonable person of the character's wealth level expect to own this item."

 

This is why pepper-spray, easily obtainable, costs points.

 

This is also why, if the character bought wealth, I would allow him to have a fleet of cars or even a private jet. But most billionaires do not own zepplins, nor do they have heat seeking missles or radar-jammers on the private jet.

 

I would not charge for a cellphone, even if that's taken with them on every adventure and used for communication - first, it's got tons of limitations, including being "out of range" of a signal. I would charge for a "super-communicator" like Captain Kirk had, to communicate with a station in orbit, and I would charge for one that always worked.

 

I'd also charge for any item in the character's MOTIF. The SuperMobile might not be anything more than a Honda Civic with a neat paint job, but if it expects to see Motif action, it's coming out of your points. (This, of course, does not include items that the PC's declare, sarcastically, are in their motif, for example, the SuperCivic.)

[Robyn]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

Do I really have to do a whole write-up for breath mints?

 

It's not that bad. PSL for Etiquette, only to cancel out DF: Bad Breath.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

A while back, PhilFleischmann posted what he called "The Normal Person Doctrine (For Champions)." It stated simply:

Anything a normal (non-heroic, non-superheroic, essentially, a 0-point person) in the campaign world can have, a PC can have for free - for no character points. This includes several things:

 

* One or more "Bases" that are just normal houses or otherwise ordinary buildings.

* One or more ordinary "Vehicles" - a normal car, motorcycle, even a boat or a plane (if it makes sense for the character's background).

 

A basic rule of thumb is: if it has weapons on it, you have to pay for it.

But if it's just fancy, it doesn't have to cost points. Although the Money Perk might be required to own a huge (but normal) mansion, yacht, etc. And of course, what is normal depends on the genre. In a modern setting, anyone can have a car. In a future scifi setting, everyday normal people might have a small personal space vehicle. In a fantasy setting, you could have normal horse or a mule-drawn cart, etc.

(Sorry, I have lost the original thread link)

 

I tend to add the "Wal-Mart Extension to the Normal Person Doctrine" which says that, in addition to the above, if you can buy it at Wal-Mart (without a federally mandated waiting period), you don't have to pay points for it.

[kjamma4]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

But most billionaires do not own zepplins' date=' nor do they have heat seeking missles or radar-jammers on the private jet.[/quote']

 

Then what's the point in becoming a billionaire?

[Robyn]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

A while back, PhilFleischmann posted what he called "The Normal Person Doctrine (For Champions)." It stated simply:

 

(Sorry, I have lost the original thread link)

 

Search is good for this

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1012182&postcount=29

 

The way I'd do it' date=' is first look at the wealth (paid with points) for the character. Does the item make sense for the character to have? Even then, most items purchased with money are an "SFX" of that money and some what limited in play.[/quote']

 

Can we call Wealth a Gadget Pool?

 

Except that not everything money can buy is material. So maybe it's just a very limited VPP?

 

edit: Actually, this is a good idea. Building the Wealth perk as a VPP would enforce point balance with other powers, and offer more granularity for unusual types of Wealth

[Wolfgar]

Thanks guys. You've been really helpful, and given me some decent ideas about how I want to do things.

[Lucius]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

Search is good for this

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1012182&postcount=29

 

 

 

Can we call Wealth a Gadget Pool?

 

Except that not everything money can buy is material. So maybe it's just a very limited VPP?

 

edit: Actually, this is a good idea. Building the Wealth perk as a VPP would enforce point balance with other powers, and offer more granularity for unusual types of Wealth

 

 

Hm...I'm reminded of how in the first Marvel superhero game there was something called "Resources" - I think it was even a characteristic? and the explanation specifically divorced it from personal wealth, as such. For example, Captain America is not a wealthy man as such things are usually measured - but "if Cap needs something, he can usually get it," because he's so charismatic, trusted, and respected, that if he needs something special or unusual, equipment or a service performed or whatever, someone will usually do it for him or a contact in the government will acquire it for him or some wealthy citizen will lend it to him.

 

Is that the sort of thing you mean by "unusual types of wealth?"

 

Oh, and to the original poster - don't let all the responses overwhelm you. You can probably pick out the major thrust of what people are trying to tell you, but I'm going to add, the most important thing is to talk to the person running the game. They can probably give you the best guidelines on what needs to be modeled with points. Some people WILL charge a point for a cell-phone; others won't. But generally, you can have a car and a home (probably rented or mortgaged) unless you took a limitation to represent being impoverished.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I have a palindromedary, which is something many kings, heroes, and wealthy merchants have had to do without.

[Robyn]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

Hm...I'm reminded of how in the first Marvel superhero game there was something called "Resources" - I think it was even a characteristic? and the explanation specifically divorced it from personal wealth, as such. For example, Captain America is not a wealthy man as such things are usually measured - but "if Cap needs something, he can usually get it," because he's so charismatic, trusted, and respected, that if he needs something special or unusual, equipment or a service performed or whatever, someone will usually do it for him or a contact in the government will acquire it for him or some wealthy citizen will lend it to him.

 

Is that the sort of thing you mean by "unusual types of wealth?"

 

I was thinking more along the lines of "food stamps" or a line of credit with certain merchants, restrictions on what you can buy or who will sell anything to you.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/HEROEquipmentDebunk.htm

[Wolfgar]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

 

Oh, and to the original poster - don't let all the responses overwhelm you. You can probably pick out the major thrust of what people are trying to tell you, but I'm going to add, the most important thing is to talk to the person running the game. They can probably give you the best guidelines on what needs to be modeled with points. Some people WILL charge a point for a cell-phone; others won't. But generally, you can have a car and a home (probably rented or mortgaged) unless you took a limitation to represent being impoverished.

 

The only problem, oh great and mighty palindromedary, is that I might very well be the guy running the thing, and I'm honestly looking for guidelines on what to stat and what to handwave.

[Robyn]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of "food stamps" or a line of credit with certain merchants' date=' restrictions on what you can buy or who will sell anything to you.[/quote']

 

There are more options for the granularity, of course. I was thinking of ghost-angel's posts in this chain, on how you can't necessarily build any power you can imagine just because you have a VPP. The "Wealth" VPP can be defined that way, of course, and "common sense" used to determine when something is possible or not. But "common sense" exists to varying degrees (some people use it a lot to maintain excellent simulations in rules-light systems), and with this you could have the cost reflect the actual utility of Wealth (creating custom Limitations to suit a new circumstance).

 

Here's one thought, by the way - can an Advantage be applied to VPP's that will let the AP of powers within it exceed the pool? Perhaps a doubling, double again, sort of cumulative thing?

[Wolfgar]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

So since I have everyone's attention...

 

What would I use to model a camera or tape recorder or similar such devices?

[Robyn]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

So since I have everyone's attention...

 

Thread drift will occur, but it's almost invisible after we learn to recognize which posts we're interested in and bypass the rest.

 

What would I use to model a camera or tape recorder or similar such devices?

 

I think there is a thread here somewhere that addresses a crystal ball that can absorb and store sounds for later playback.

[incrdbil]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

Quickly and simply, you shouldn't. Every GM is different, but there is no need to pay for trivial items. A normal home, a normal car, cell phone, watch--this is not reasonable to be paid for in points in a superheroic campaign.

 

I'm not even thinking you should pay for some items with weapon like abilities. If you get a can of gas from your garage and use it as part of a trap--thats not somethign you should pay for, even if you do it more than once in your career. It's not going to ever be as reliable or easy or accessible as a power.

 

Ditto on cell phone communication, email, PDA's, in car navuigation systems, first aid kits, survival kits, gooing to a shop and buying scuba gear. There are obvious problems and disadvabtages that seperate them from the abilities you would get as powers.

 

You can worry all you want about wealth--but if its a superheroic campaign, just remmeber anythign off the shelf bought with money isn't going to compare to an XP bought power over the long haul. The easiest way you know you've crossed the line as a GM when players start diverting points from powers to wealth, anf the K-Mart heroes are gettign levels of utility and availability even partially close to what the regualr heroes are getting from their gear.

[gojira]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

The only problem' date=' oh great and mighty palindromedary, is that I might very well be the guy running the thing, and I'm honestly looking for guidelines on what to stat and what to handwave.[/quote']

 

Then talk it over with your players, and get their input.

 

I think the line should be "when someone's gear starts to grab attention away from other players too much, and makes them feel they aren't having fun." It might be worthwhile to figure out the line before play, but then ask for feedback after each session, for *anything* the players might want to say that could make the game more fun.

 

Just start somewhere, and don't be afraid to adjust the line afterwards, as long as most of your players agree.

 

So since I have everyone's attention...

 

What would I use to model a camera or tape recorder or similar such devices?

 

I would just handwave these. "You have a camera." "You're an ace reporter, of course you have a tape recorder." I don't see how these could be unbalancing. But if it really becomes a problem, some sort of Retrocognition, with OAF and other appropriate lims (only for pictures that have been taken, etc.).

 

I would also add some sort of INT or Preception roll to using these devices. Just because you have a picture doesn't always mean you'll notice the detail that you should.

[Robyn]

Re: Question: Must I model everything I own?

 

some sort of Retrocognition' date=' with OAF and other appropriate lims (only for pictures that have been taken, etc.).[/quote']

 

So the power only does anything when you want to look at the pictures, everything leading up to that moment (announcing that you take a picture, etcetera) is just SFX?

 

I had in mind an Images: Set Effect sort of thing, or Cosmetic Transform: blank roll of film into roll of film with images on it (borrowed from the build for paper and pencil). Vampires and such that are invisible to photos thus wouldn't have to take Immunity to some odd sort of Retrocognition; building the camera to determine each Set Effect by what the Focus could perceive (and using normal Senses for the camera) would let it interact normally with standard Invisibility.

 

edit: They wouldn't have to anyway (for the Retrocognition) - it would be built with standard senses anyway