Secret IDs: In or Out?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Read a bit about the inability to slow down the drug trade in south and central America. The authorities are afraid of harm to themselves and their families. This is also a trope of many cinematic genres.

 

Judges and police, as examples, are somewhat protected by the fact that, if it weren't that judge/cop, another would have done the same thing. There is some safety in numbers. But how many of Spider-Man's enemies would just shrug and say "well, someone else would have stopped me anyway"? Another genre trope is that no one else could have prevented the villains' evil plot.

I will also point out that in most American cities, cops and many other members of law enforcement (judges, prosecutors, etc.) keep unlisted phone numbers and conceal their residences as best they can. Many SWAT team members and narcotics officers wear balaclavas or facial coverings to conceal their features, and most police departments require cops to carry firearms even off duty. So even cops here in the states do what they can to prevent criminals from threatening themselves or their families. Bad enough when you're taking down ordinary armed bank robbers; even worse if you're dealing with drug traffickers or terrorists. How much worse would it be dealing with the likes of Eurostar? I'd consider a Secret ID for superheroes to be simply a continuation of this basic idea: Keep the criminals knowing as little as possible about you. If nothing else, a flashy costume helps distract people from looking too closely at your face. (I do think it's extremely unlikely most heroes could realistically keep their friends and loved ones from guessing their secret over a long period; but since it's a genre staple I'm prepared to run with it.)

 

Anonymity: It's not just for spies anymore.

[Roth]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

That works for a while. But once your identity is discovered, you can expect to become tabloid fodder. Just like tv and movie stars, you may start off anonymous, but once the public gets interested, there's an entire industry devoted to chronicling every moment of your life. Your childhood, your relationships, your every appearance in public, will be documented.

 

Brad Pitt may have the money to keep the paparazzi at arm's length--but Peter Parker sure as heck doesn't. They'll be interviewing the people in the apartment next door, Flash Thompson, J. Jonah Jameson, Robbie, Betty Brant, etc. Everyone who ever interacted with Parker and has an axe to grind will get his 15 minutes of fame.

 

And that's what happens when the tabloids aren't actively out to get you. What about those who are? What about criminals who've been fighting you for years? Now they know who you are, who your friends and relatives are, where you live, all of it.

 

"Hey, Spider-Man is just some anonymous guy!" works--for a short while.

 

There was an issue of Spidey a few years ago that had a photo journalist for one of the NY Tabloids accidentally get a pic of Peter changing to Spidey. He of course was going to sell it for millions. Over the course of the issue Peter tried to reason with the guy who didn't care about the havoc caused. Finally in the end peter as Spiderman scared the crap out of him. And the guy gave up the film/ photo.

 

At the end of the issue the guy leaves the alley where he gives up the photo and thinks to himself that since he knows Peters face it should be a snap to get another pic. Then he realizes he never knew Peter's real name. And he lives in NY, with millions of other people who have never seen peter's face and don't know his name either. And how hard it will be to find him is the expression you see on his face.

[sinanju]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

There was an issue of Spidey a few years ago that had a photo journalist for one of the NY Tabloids accidentally get a pic of Peter changing to Spidey. He of course was going to sell it for millions. Over the course of the issue Peter tried to reason with the guy who didn't care about the havoc caused. Finally in the end peter as Spiderman scared the crap out of him. And the guy gave up the film/ photo.

 

At the end of the issue the guy leaves the alley where he gives up the photo and thinks to himself that since he knows Peters face it should be a snap to get another pic. Then he realizes he never knew Peter's real name. And he lives in NY, with millions of other people who have never seen peter's face and don't know his name either. And how hard it will be to find him is the expression you see on his face.

 

Uh...yeah. It's hard to ID an hero when you don't have a name OR a photo. If you've got a name, he's toast. If you've got a photo, you run the pic in the paper (or slap it on your website) with a headline: SPIDER-MAN CAUGHT WITHOUT MASK!!! Then the body of the story admits you don't know who he is, but you're sure that someone reading it does. So you publish a phone number, asking, "Who is this man?"

 

Pretty soon you'll have lots of leads. Most of them bogus, of course. But not all.

[Weldun]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Uh...yeah. It's hard to ID an hero when you don't have a name OR a photo. If you've got a name, he's toast. If you've got a photo, you run the pic in the paper (or slap it on your website) with a headline: SPIDER-MAN CAUGHT WITHOUT MASK!!! Then the body of the story admits you don't know who he is, but you're sure that someone reading it does. So you publish a phone number, asking, "Who is this man?"

 

Pretty soon you'll have lots of leads. Most of them bogus, of course. But not all.

And on that note...

[David Johnston]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

I see five basic circumstances under which it makes sense for a character to maintain a secret identity.

 

1. Organised crime is so pervasive and powerful that anyone seeking to make significant headway against it, must conceal their identity. The reason why cops and judges don't have to conceal their identities from the mob is because they aren't going to be doing anything against the mob.

 

2. The government has...uses for people with special abilities. The ones who work for the government conceal their identities to make them more useful as secret weapons.

 

3. Not only does the government have uses for the PC, but they don't take "no" for an answer. If the PCs want to remain indepentantly active and have anything like a normal life, a secret ID is necessary.

 

4. The government won't necessarily draft you, but there is some kind of legal setup which basically makes it illegal for anyone except a cop to stop a crime or save a life.

 

5. The characters intend to commit crimes in pursuit of their ends, plain and simple. They plan to break and enter all the time, commit multiple murders (of the "bad" people of course), whatever.

[Weldun]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

I see five basic circumstances under which it makes sense for a character to maintain a secret identity.

 

1. Organised crime is so pervasive and powerful that anyone seeking to make significant headway against it, must conceal their identity. The reason why cops and judges don't have to conceal their identities from the mob is because they aren't going to be doing anything against the mob.

 

2. The government has...uses for people with special abilities. The ones who work for the government conceal their identities to make them more useful as secret weapons.

 

3. Not only does the government have uses for the PC, but they don't take "no" for an answer. If the PCs want to remain indepentantly active and have anything like a normal life, a secret ID is necessary.

 

4. The government won't necessarily draft you, but there is some kind of legal setup which basically makes it illegal for anyone except a cop to stop a crime or save a life.

 

5. The characters intend to commit crimes in pursuit of their ends, plain and simple. They plan to break and enter all the time, commit multiple murders (of the "bad" people of course), whatever.

So, Tommy has no reason to conceal the fact that he is Leatherback.

[David Johnston]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Well he may have a reason. But given the legal issues involved in things like leaving the scene of a crime without identifying himself, I don't think his reasons are really good.

[Weldun]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

So the only good validation for a secret ID is a legal one?

[Balabanto]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Didn't you forget, David, that by the modern era, if you've had Superheroes since World War II, they may simply be seen as part of the socially acceptable

culture and tolerated under good samaritan laws?

 

As long as the heroes ACT like heroes, and don't kill people, and bring people to justice, and save the lives of innocents, then there's not a problem.

 

If the 'heroes" start acting as a law unto themselves, then there's a problem.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Oh, come on. If I got even a silly super-power, and never even considered crime-fighting, nor anything remotely illegal, I'd still want a secret ID. Heck, if I ever won the lottery, I'd want a secret ID. Some of us don't *want* celebrity, especially when circumstances thrust it upon us.

 

Not that I'd go for spandex-and-mask, of course.

[assault]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

5. The characters intend to commit crimes in pursuit of their ends' date=' plain and simple. They plan to break and enter all the time, commit multiple murders (of the "bad" people of course), whatever.[/quote']

 

Not to mention assaulting people, damaging property, and possibly carrying illegal weaponry and other equipment.

 

Actually, it would be pretty hard to be a superhero without being a habitual lawbreaker. You wouldn't be able to do much more than rescue people. Fighting would be right out in most cases.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Keep in mind, too, that while the means to discover identities today is extraordinary, comic-book superhumans can exceed what's realistically possible in these areas as they can in others. When you can become invisible, or move so fast as to seem invisible, or teleport instantly out of camera or satellite view, or instantly change your shape to look like anyone, or carry technological illusion-generators/radar scramblers/etc., or can crack any database to alter biographical details or forensic reports, or telepathically mindwipe someone who finds out your secrets, or create android duplicates or clones of yourself to cover for you, or have more money than God so as to pay or bribe anyone you need to do these things for you... well, in a comic-book universe these things are not only possible, they happen all the time.

[David Johnston]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

So the only good validation for a secret ID is a legal one?

 

If you look at the list, only one of those options involve not defying the law.

[David Johnston]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Not to mention assaulting people, damaging property, and possibly carrying illegal weaponry and other equipment.

 

Actually, it would be pretty hard to be a superhero without being a habitual lawbreaker. You wouldn't be able to do much more than rescue people. Fighting would be right out in most cases.

 

The law isn't quite that restrictive. If you see someone committing a felony you can attempt to make a citizen's arrest. If they attack you, you can respond with force as long as you don't get excessive. If they are attacking someone else with intent to do serious bodily harm you can intervene.

[Squall]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

A lot of that varies by state (and, out of the US, I'd assume by nation). Quite a few states still (sadly) have a "duty to retreat," which is almost the exact opposite of "duty to act like a decent human being." In quite a few areas, you're legally required to do everything you can to placate and/or avoid a criminal (even in your home), and any violence that comes about from that person breaking in and wishing harm to you and yours is your fault (because, apparently, you didn't run away fast enough).

 

Perverse, but true.

 

And even in the areas where the law does work as described (stop a felony, citizen's arrest, use non-excessive force), the definition of "excessive force" can vary wildly based on the whim of the judicial system. And don't forget, even if The People Versus Hero X finds Hero X to be innocent of any crime, the civil suit from the criminal (or the criminals next of kin) will often bankrupt Hero X (assuming the initial trial didn't).

 

It's tough enough being a law abiding concealed-carrier, in today's society (and I'm in one of the more gun-friendly states of the union). I can't imagine trying to jump through the legal hoops that'd be required to actually actively fight crime, with superpowers.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

A lot of that varies by state (and' date=' out of the US, I'd assume by nation). Quite a few states still (sadly) have a "duty to retreat," which is almost the exact opposite of "duty to act like a decent human being." In quite a few areas, you're legally required to do everything you can to placate and/or avoid a criminal (even in your home), and any violence that comes about from that person breaking in and wishing harm to you and yours is [i']your[/i] fault (because, apparently, you didn't run away fast enough).

 

Perverse, but true.

 

And even in the areas where the law does work as described (stop a felony, citizen's arrest, use non-excessive force), the definition of "excessive force" can vary wildly based on the whim of the judicial system. And don't forget, even if The People Versus Hero X finds Hero X to be innocent of any crime, the civil suit from the criminal (or the criminals next of kin) will often bankrupt Hero X (assuming the initial trial didn't).

 

It's tough enough being a law abiding concealed-carrier, in today's society (and I'm in one of the more gun-friendly states of the union). I can't imagine trying to jump through the legal hoops that'd be required to actually actively fight crime, with superpowers.

It would be perfectly reasonable for superheroes to congregate in states with more flexible self-defense laws and to avoid "duty to retreat" states and cities like the plague. The obvious correlary is that supercriminals will tend to stay in places where there are naturally going to be fewer superheroes to stop them. Sure, there will be some heroes that buck the law and try to fight crime, but how successful would they be when they're treated as criminals themselves? Even Batman succeeds only because the cops (and citizenry!) know he's accomplishing things they only wish they could. They turn a blind eye or even covertly help the Caped Crusader.

 

I'd hate to see what Massachusetts' supercrime problem would look like, given it's one of strictest of the current "duty to retreat" states IRL. Boston's crime rate figures are not encouraging...

[Zed-F]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

If we had actual superheroes, and they'd been around for any significant length of time, the laws would be very different.

 

In fact, however, I'd venture to guess that most supers that wanted to be 'heroes' would wind up in uniform, working for municipal or federal agencies, and abiding by whatever checks and balances the system set up for them, much like the police or FBI do today. Superheroes running around and imposing their morality on everyone else is great for comics but anarchy in real life.

[Tech]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

I don't pay attention to what Marvel or DC is doing. What they do with their comics isn't going to affect my campaign anymore than what someone else does in their campaign will affect mine.

 

The question isn't: 'Is Secret Identity outdated' but 'Is it a disadvantage in your campaign?' It's the same thing in a high-fantasy game. It isn't 'Are orcs attacking outdated?' but 'Is having orcs hunting your character a disadvantage?'

 

Finally, yes, having a Secret Identity is still a disadvantage in the games I'm in.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

Keep in mind' date=' too, that while the means to discover identities today is extraordinary, comic-book superhumans can exceed what's realistically possible in these areas as they can in others. When you can become invisible, or move so fast as to seem invisible, or teleport instantly out of camera or satellite view, or instantly change your shape to look like anyone, or carry technological illusion-generators/radar scramblers/etc., or can crack any database to alter biographical details or forensic reports, or telepathically mindwipe someone who finds out your secrets, or create android duplicates or clones of yourself to cover for you, or have more money than God so as to pay or bribe anyone you need to do these things for you... well, in a comic-book universe these things are not only possible, they happen all the time.[/quote']

You know, I often wondered in the Silver Age, why Superman didn't make more use of his robots to conceal his secret ID. I mean, he had several robot duplicates with all his powers and several "Clark" robots with no powers. Or if not the robots, why not just release one of the several dozen Kandorians who looked just like him, restore them to normal size (which could be done for short periods),and let them cover for him. And while I'm on the subject, did anyone else ever wonder about the "Kandor Look-A-Like Squad?" I mean, there are several Kryptonians who look just like Superman and his friends and family, and they all just happen to live in Kandor? Come on!

[Vestnik]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

You know' date=' I often wondered in the Silver Age, why Superman didn't make more use of his robots to conceal his secret ID. I mean, he had several robot duplicates with all his powers and several "Clark" robots with no powers. Or if not the robots, why not just release one of the several dozen Kandorians who looked just like him, restore them to normal size (which could be done for short periods),and let them cover for him. And while I'm on the subject, did anyone else ever wonder about the "Kandor Look-A-Like Squad?" I mean, there are several Kryptonians who look just like Superman and his friends and family, and they all just happen to live in Kandor? Come on![/quote']

 

The answer is that Silver Age Superman was written for 8-year-olds.

[Shaft]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

The question isn't: 'Is Secret Identity outdated' but 'Is it a disadvantage in your campaign?' It's the same thing in a high-fantasy game. It isn't 'Are orcs attacking outdated?' but 'Is having orcs hunting your character a disadvantage?'

 

Finally, yes, having a Secret Identity is still a disadvantage in the games I'm in.

 

Actually, I was thinking more about the sociological aspect of it.

 

In a "realistic" game, I think most of us agree that keeping a Secret ID requires a lot of effort, far more than slipping into a convenient phonebooth or back alley to change. Secret IDs were more plausible in the Golden age, and even the Silver Age. In my opinion, in the Contemprary Age, the only reason the Secret IDs can be kept RELATIVELY easily is out of homage to the original genre.

 

The follow up question is how much of a disadvantage it should be. If the Secret ID forces you to become paranoid by going to extreme lengths to conceal it, it's not just 15 pts. IE, the reason it's still just a 15 pt social limitation is because of the latitude that the genre convention allows

[Weldun]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

The law isn't quite that restrictive. If you see someone committing a felony you can attempt to make a citizen's arrest. If they attack you' date=' you can respond with force as long as you don't get excessive. If they are attacking someone else with intent to do serious bodily harm you can intervene.[/quote']The key words in this case, at least in Australia, are reasonable and necessary. If you deem the level of force you use, up to and including one level above the level being used aganst you, to be reasonable and necessary, you're covered by law. Curiously, if your a security officer, you are not allowed to use the 6th level of force at all, which is chemical attack. My understanding is that the law is similar in most western nations.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

It would be perfectly reasonable for superheroes to congregate in states with more flexible self-defense laws and to avoid "duty to retreat" states and cities like the plague. The obvious correlary is that supercriminals will tend to stay in places where there are naturally going to be fewer superheroes to stop them. Sure, there will be some heroes that buck the law and try to fight crime, but how successful would they be when they're treated as criminals themselves? Even Batman succeeds only because the cops (and citizenry!) know he's accomplishing things they only wish they could. They turn a blind eye or even covertly help the Caped Crusader.

 

I'd hate to see what Massachusetts' supercrime problem would look like, given it's one of strictest of the current "duty to retreat" states IRL. Boston's crime rate figures are not encouraging...

 

This might actually be one justification for the condition of Hudson City in the Champions Universe.

[Mike W]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

The secret ID does seem to be on it's way out, largely due to it not being very plausible. But at the same time, I think that the companies have dealt very poorly with the ramifications of such, at least they haven't done so in a realistic manner. That's always been the problem. A secret ID isn't terribly realistic, but to realistically deal with the result if everyone had a public ID does not necessarily make for good storytelling. After all, how often can you kidnap the character's girlfriend? How many family members can you kill? before it just gets old and no one wants to read it (to say nothing of what it would do to the character's psyche and social life). Yet those kinds of occurrences should logically be very common if everyone had a public ID. A sort of "middle ground" might work where the authorities know, but the general public doesn't is a bit more realistic, but probably anyone who really wanted to know could take the time to find out one way or another, if they were rational about it.

 

This is one of those areas where I think the new emphasis on realism really hurts both the comic genre and the storytelling in general. In the old days, there was a sort of "code of honor" amongst the heroes and villains that there were certain things you just don't do. Heroes don't kill or get over rough, and villains don't track down the hero and mess with their family; that sort of thing. Such a "gentleman's agreement" isn't as unrealistic as it seems, give the stakes. Sure there would always be exceptions, but they were just that EXCEPTIONS. Now, it seems like "realism" has been used as an excuse to say "all bets are off" and the line between hero and villain is getting very, very thin. And I think that's a shame. For one thing, if the hero isn't any better than the bad guy, why should we care about the hero?

[Mike W]

Re: Secret IDs: In or Out?

 

It would be perfectly reasonable for superheroes to congregate in states with more flexible self-defense laws and to avoid "duty to retreat" states and cities like the plague. The obvious correlary is that supercriminals will tend to stay in places where there are naturally going to be fewer superheroes to stop them. Sure, there will be some heroes that buck the law and try to fight crime, but how successful would they be when they're treated as criminals themselves? Even Batman succeeds only because the cops (and citizenry!) know he's accomplishing things they only wish they could. They turn a blind eye or even covertly help the Caped Crusader.

 

I'd hate to see what Massachusetts' supercrime problem would look like, given it's one of strictest of the current "duty to retreat" states IRL. Boston's crime rate figures are not encouraging...

 

Most likely, Massachusetts and other states that are ultrastrict on self defense would find themselves over run with supercriminals and have to spend a ridiculous amount of money either hiring superhero deputies(if you could find any willing to do it under the circumstances) or investing in a lot of money in high tech gadgetry in the hope that they could use supertech to control the problem. It would also probably have a very high military presence as backup.

 

This is one of those cases where the genre convention requires that you suspend realism a bit in order for the universe to function.