Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

[bigdamnhero]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/24/tech/main2395958.shtml

 

Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

New Weapon Makes Human Targets Feel Like They're About To Catch Fire

(AP) The military's new weapon is a ray gun that shoots a beam that makes people feel as if they will catch fire.

 

The technology is supposed to be harmless — a non-lethal way to get enemies to drop their weapons. Military officials say it could save the lives of innocent civilians and service members in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

The weapon is not expected to go into production until at least 2010, but all branches of the military have expressed interest in it, officials said.

 

During the first media demonstration of the weapon Wednesday, airmen fired beams from a large dish antenna mounted atop a Humvee at people pretending to be rioters and acting out other scenarios U.S. troops might encounter.

 

The crew fired beams from more than 500 yards away, nearly 17 times the range of existing non-lethal weapons, such as rubber bullets.

 

While the sudden, 130-degree Fahrenheit heat was not painful, it was intense enough to make participants think their clothes were about to ignite.

 

"This is one of the key technologies for the future," said Marine Col. Kirk Hymes, director of the non-lethal weapons program which helped develop the new weapon. "Non-lethal weapons are important for the escalation of force, especially in the environments our forces are operating in."

 

The system uses millimeter waves, which can penetrate only 1/64th of an inch of skin, just enough to cause discomfort. By comparison, common kitchen microwaves penetrate several inches of skin.

 

The millimeter waves cannot go through walls or glass, but they can penetrate most clothing, officials said.

 

Two airmen and 10 reporters volunteered to be shot with the beams, which easily penetrated various layers of winter clothing.

 

The system was developed by the military, but the two devices currently being evaluated were built by defense contractor Raytheon.

 

Airman Blaine Pernell, 22, said he could have used the system during his four tours in Iraq, where he manned watchtowers around a base near Kirkuk. He said Iraqis constantly pulled up and faked car problems so they could scout out U.S. forces.

 

"All we could do is watch them," he said. But if they had the ray gun, troops "could have dispersed them."

Stats anyone?

[Shaft]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/24/tech/main2395958.shtml

 

 

Stats anyone?

 

Images vs Touch group, limited effect (heat), area effect.

[OddHat]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

Psych Limit: Willing to Get Troops Killed in Order to Look Humanitarian

[Curufea]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

I'm wondering what the effect is on eyeballs, myself.

 

Isn't the milimeter wavelength still in the microwave band? Are they distinguising it simply to reduce the fear level?

[Barton]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

The beam would in MOST cases cause the target to flee the scene. The pain is very uncomfortable. The effect on eyes would be small, you would blink or cover your eyes when hit by the beam.

 

In DC terms I would make it a area of effect Energy blast NND 1 or 2 dice, OAF bulky.

 

FYI: this weapon *may* not be legal under the current Geneva convention of war due to it may be able to be used for torture. This is still questionable.

[tkdguy]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

I owe you rep. I need to link this to my Future Tech thread.

[lemming]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

"I'm beaming cancer at you! MWA HA HAH!

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

Sounds pretty useless. 130 degree heat against people who live in a desert? May be of some use if Scandanavia becomes destabilized, though.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

Just you try us!

[Shaft]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

Sounds pretty useless. 130 degree heat against people who live in a desert? May be of some use if Scandanavia becomes destabilized' date=' though.[/quote']

 

I'm not so sure about that. Try taking a shower with the hot water all the way on. Now imagine getting hit with that.

[archermoo]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

I'm wondering what the effect is on eyeballs, myself.

 

Isn't the milimeter wavelength still in the microwave band? Are they distinguising it simply to reduce the fear level?

 

Technically, the milimeter wavelength is the separator between the microwave band and the terahertz radiation band. Which may have been why they compared it to "common kitchen microwaves" which have a much larger wavelength. In any case the divisions are purely arbitrary.

 

Though I am also curious as to the effect on the eyes, and what happens if you have metal objects on you and you are hit with this.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

I'm not so sure about that. Try taking a shower with the hot water all the way on. Now imagine getting hit with that.

 

I don't have to imagine 130 degree heat, I know exactly what it feels like. The weapon is designed to deter by psychological means, as stated in the article quoted. That makes is a non-starter for me.

 

The sonic weapon (which I think is linked around here somewhere a while back) will actually incapacitate. 130 degree heat just makes desert lizards skitter over for a nice bask. That level of discomfort is nothing to bank on deterring angry desert-dwelling humans with any level of certainty. Sure, humans aren't going to stick around in the heat, but it does nothing to stop them from coming at you as opposed to away from you. Weapons that don't at least seriously impair the body's capacity to function are worthless.

[Sundog]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

Technically, the milimeter wavelength is the separator between the microwave band and the terahertz radiation band. Which may have been why they compared it to "common kitchen microwaves" which have a much larger wavelength. In any case the divisions are purely arbitrary.

 

Though I am also curious as to the effect on the eyes, and what happens if you have metal objects on you and you are hit with this.

 

I've been following the development of this thing for some time (there was an article on it in Scientific American a few years ago (or was it Popular Science? I can't recall)). Since these waves don't work at the resonant frequency of water the way microwave generators do, water is actually a protective against them - so your eyes should be quite safe. (It's also the reason this weapon is not useful in the rain - but since they designed it as an anti-riot weapon, and rain also tends to disperse riots, the developers did not see this as a major flaw). I really don't know about metals.

[Shaft]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

I don't have to imagine 130 degree heat, I know exactly what it feels like. The weapon is designed to deter by psychological means, as stated in the article quoted. That makes is a non-starter for me.

 

Well, when used on those of us who only have a 2 or 3 ED and an 11- EGO roll, it might still be effective.

 

The impression I got was that this was intended as the mildest form of weapon- if it scatters 75% of a crowd, then it will be effective, saving the tear gas, riot cops with shields and clubs and firehoses for the die hards who stick around after that.

 

Of course the risk is that it gets used on any crowd for the mildest justification. If President Dubya decides he doesn't like people camping near his ranch, or showing up to protest his latest decision, flip this weapon on and disperse them with "no adverse effect".

[WhataWorld]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

Weapons that don't at least seriously impair the body's capacity to function are worthless.

 

 

From what I understand it's not designed as a combat weapon, but as a police weapon. It gives them 1 more level of less than lethal force that they can use against rioters & civil disturbances.

I've seen this before being tested on History or Discovery Channel about less than lethal weapons.

 

Like it was mentioned above, if it can help disperse an angry mob, without resorting to rubber bullets or police batons in hand to hand fighting, then it's doing it's job.

 

That's not to say it can't be misused. It can, and probably will. But any device created can be(an most likley has been) misused. Doesn't mean the device is bad. Just means we have to keep an eye on the people using them.

[Susano]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

The real question would be: is it as clumsy or random as a blaster?

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

From what I understand it's not designed as a combat weapon, but as a police weapon. It gives them 1 more level of less than lethal force that they can use against rioters & civil disturbances.

I've seen this before being tested on History or Discovery Channel about less than lethal weapons.

 

Like it was mentioned above, if it can help disperse an angry mob, without resorting to rubber bullets or police batons in hand to hand fighting, then it's doing it's job.

 

That's not to say it can't be misused. It can, and probably will. But any device created can be(an most likley has been) misused. Doesn't mean the device is bad. Just means we have to keep an eye on the people using them.

 

I was an MP for a number of years in my youth. Here's the thing: If you use force, it had better be enough force to get the job done. Half measures can tend to incite. In some situations, the heat gun, if it works as advertised will probably work.

 

Now, let's say you have a crowd to disperse. Against a peaceful crowd, you don't use any escalation of force. For example, Desert Storm protesters would come out to our base and line up for a bit of sign waving, etc. The PM would come out and read them the ordinance regarding getting their butts off our base or being arrested. The protest organizer would then ask everyone who wanted to be arrested to step forward and the rest to back off. Then we'd round up the folks who wanted to be arrested, and the rest would leave. We'd just put flexi-cuffs on the protesters, take them to an unused base gym and process them all (essentially take their info and issue tickets to appear in court) then load 'em up again and drop them off in town a good hiking distance from their cars. Nuts, but nothing you need to bust out ray guns for.

 

Now, you may have the peaceful type crowd that doesn't want to be arrested for bizzare reasons of martyrdom, but for the most part, if the crowd is permitted, you only need to isolate and haul off the worse of the lot if their peaceful. Or unchain them from a building and haul them off. You don't want to CS them or water cannon them, or ray gun them. If you did happen to use any less than leathal force on these guys, they'd probably go crying home to mommy. The ray gun might work here, but why bother?

 

Which leaves violent, thuggish crowds. The types of crowd the article mentions using a ray gun on, and really the only type of crowd you're justified in using force on the scale of mass crowd control stuff on. Now, the article mentions military applications in regions like the Middle East. If you escalate force on these guys, they will in all likelihood escalate right back at you. In that case, you want to skip over anything that doesn't flat knock them on their ass. You don't send in cops to drag off individuals, you either go in formation with shields and riot clubs, toss in CS, water cannon them, or whatever. But this is no place for a heat gun, or at least no place to rely on a heat gun (as described in the article). I can see someone blasting a crowd with it then rushing in and overwhelming them with riot-geared police/military, using it as a set up for busting the crowd up with standard tactics. I can't see it being relied on to break a crowd of this type by itself.

[Yansuf]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

DOD has been working on this for at least 15 years. Several times in the past there were proposals to try it for real somewhere (Bosnia, Haiti, Iraq) but it was never done for political reasons: it was supposed to be non-lethal, but what if it did kill someone? For example, someone fleeing from the pain fell and broke his neck, or someone with a pre-existing medical condition had a heart attack?

Non of the politicals in DOD (and State) were willing to take a chance.

Discussion of this recently in military journals has talked of using it as a "discriminatory device", i.e. anyone who continues to close on you through this is presumed to have hostile intent, and can be shot. Excelent idea, but I have my doubts the politicals will approve that ROE.

[WhataWorld]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

I was an MP for a number of years in my youth. Here's the thing: If you use force, it had better be enough force to get the job done. Half measures can tend to incite. In some situations, the heat gun, if it works as advertised will probably work.

 

Now, let's say you have a crowd to disperse. Against a peaceful crowd, you don't use any escalation of force. For example, Desert Storm protesters would come out to our base and line up for a bit of sign waving, etc. The PM would come out and read them the ordinance regarding getting their butts off our base or being arrested. The protest organizer would then ask everyone who wanted to be arrested to step forward and the rest to back off. Then we'd round up the folks who wanted to be arrested, and the rest would leave. We'd just put flexi-cuffs on the protesters, take them to an unused base gym and process them all (essentially take their info and issue tickets to appear in court) then load 'em up again and drop them off in town a good hiking distance from their cars. Nuts, but nothing you need to bust out ray guns for.

 

Now, you may have the peaceful type crowd that doesn't want to be arrested for bizzare reasons of martyrdom, but for the most part, if the crowd is permitted, you only need to isolate and haul off the worse of the lot if their peaceful. Or unchain them from a building and haul them off. You don't want to CS them or water cannon them, or ray gun them. If you did happen to use any less than leathal force on these guys, they'd probably go crying home to mommy. The ray gun might work here, but why bother?

 

Which leaves violent, thuggish crowds. The types of crowd the article mentions using a ray gun on, and really the only type of crowd you're justified in using force on the scale of mass crowd control stuff on. Now, the article mentions military applications in regions like the Middle East. If you escalate force on these guys, they will in all likelihood escalate right back at you. In that case, you want to skip over anything that doesn't flat knock them on their ass. You don't send in cops to drag off individuals, you either go in formation with shields and riot clubs, toss in CS, water cannon them, or whatever. But this is no place for a heat gun, or at least no place to rely on a heat gun (as described in the article). I can see someone blasting a crowd with it then rushing in and overwhelming them with riot-geared police/military, using it as a set up for busting the crowd up with standard tactics. I can't see it being relied on to break a crowd of this type by itself.

 

I agree, it's not a wundergun panacea(that would be a phaser).

In some situations it would be useless, and some situations would escalate the conflict. But can't the same be said for CS gas, rubber bullets, water cannons, troops in riot gear, etc?

I'm thinking it's got a use somewhere between the orderly protesters and the pitchfork-bearing, torch-waving angry mob.

It won't break up a crowd by itself, but it can make the less passionate think twice about their reasons for being there.

And if it can reduce the numbers, giving the police or troops the ability to focus on the determined troublemakers, that's gotta be a good thing.

Like I said earlier, I don't see a lot of military applications(maybe base defense), but more a law enforcement option.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

From what I understand it's not designed as a combat weapon, but as a police weapon. It gives them 1 more level of less than lethal force that they can use against rioters & civil disturbances.

I've seen this before being tested on History or Discovery Channel about less than lethal weapons.

 

Like it was mentioned above, if it can help disperse an angry mob, without resorting to rubber bullets or police batons in hand to hand fighting, then it's doing it's job.

 

That's not to say it can't be misused. It can, and probably will. But any device created can be(an most likley has been) misused. Doesn't mean the device is bad. Just means we have to keep an eye on the people using them.

 

As a part time conspiracy theorist, I say that means it was mean to be used on us. This other stuff is just a cover story for field testing the thing.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

I was an MP for a number of years in my youth. Here's the thing: If you use force, it had better be enough force to get the job done. Half measures can tend to incite. In some situations, the heat gun, if it works as advertised will probably work.

 

Now, let's say you have a crowd to disperse. Against a peaceful crowd, you don't use any escalation of force. For example, Desert Storm protesters would come out to our base and line up for a bit of sign waving, etc. The PM would come out and read them the ordinance regarding getting their butts off our base or being arrested. The protest organizer would then ask everyone who wanted to be arrested to step forward and the rest to back off. Then we'd round up the folks who wanted to be arrested, and the rest would leave. We'd just put flexi-cuffs on the protesters, take them to an unused base gym and process them all (essentially take their info and issue tickets to appear in court) then load 'em up again and drop them off in town a good hiking distance from their cars. Nuts, but nothing you need to bust out ray guns for.

 

Now, you may have the peaceful type crowd that doesn't want to be arrested for bizzare reasons of martyrdom, but for the most part, if the crowd is permitted, you only need to isolate and haul off the worse of the lot if their peaceful. Or unchain them from a building and haul them off. You don't want to CS them or water cannon them, or ray gun them. If you did happen to use any less than leathal force on these guys, they'd probably go crying home to mommy. The ray gun might work here, but why bother?

 

Which leaves violent, thuggish crowds. The types of crowd the article mentions using a ray gun on, and really the only type of crowd you're justified in using force on the scale of mass crowd control stuff on. Now, the article mentions military applications in regions like the Middle East. If you escalate force on these guys, they will in all likelihood escalate right back at you. In that case, you want to skip over anything that doesn't flat knock them on their ass. You don't send in cops to drag off individuals, you either go in formation with shields and riot clubs, toss in CS, water cannon them, or whatever. But this is no place for a heat gun, or at least no place to rely on a heat gun (as described in the article). I can see someone blasting a crowd with it then rushing in and overwhelming them with riot-geared police/military, using it as a set up for busting the crowd up with standard tactics. I can't see it being relied on to break a crowd of this type by itself.

 

Repped.

 

I also believe that they would have to maintain the option of upping the power output to make the effects more than just uncomfortable.

[Yansuf]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

The latest on it from http://www.strategypage.com:

 

Wonder Weapon Wariness

 

January 27, 2007: The U.S. Department of Defense has once more backed off from deploying its microwave ADS (Active Defense system). Originally set for deployment two years ago, the plan now is to continue testing the device, and put into service in 2010, or later, or never. The problem is that non-lethal weapons are not absolutely non-lethal, they are less lethal. The Department of Defense is afraid of the bad press they would get if the ADS were used, whether people died or not.

The ADS is a non-lethal weapon that looks like a radar dish. The ADS "radar dish" projects a "burn ray" that is about four feet in diameter. It is effective in fog, smoke and rain. When pointed at people and turned on, it creates a burning sensation on the skin of its victims, causing them to want to leave the area, or at least greatly distracts them. The microwave weapon has a range of about 500 meters. ADS is carried on a hummer or Stryker, along with a machine-gun and other non-lethal weapons. The proposed ROE (Rules of Engagement) for ADS are that anyone who keeps coming after getting hit with microwave is assumed to have evil intent, and will be killed. The microwave is believed to be particularly useful for terrorists who hide in crowds of women and children, using the human shields to get close enough to make an attack. This has been encountered in Somalia and Iraq.

 

Meanwhile, a new, smaller, version, called Silent Guardian, with a range of about 250 meters, has also been developed and offered for use defending vital targets (like nuclear power plants) against terrorists. The manufacturer is also pitching the Silent Guardian to the navy (for ship protection), the State Department (for embassy protection) and organizations like the border patrol, or anyone looking for a non-lethal way to quickly disperse crowds.

 

Deployment of ADS has been delayed for years because of concerns about how non-lethal it really is. ADS has been fired, in tests, over 2,500 times. Many of these firings were against human volunteers, and the device performed as predicted, without any permanent damage. But generations of exposure to lurid science fiction descriptions of "death rays" has made the defense bureaucrats anxious over the negative public relations potential if something like ADS was actually used. From a publicity perspective, using more lethal "non-lethal-weapons" is preferable to deploying something safer, but that could be described, however incorrectly, as a "death ray."

[Manic Typist]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

My only concern over the ROE proposed is that they be very specific about what constitutes "keeps coming."

 

If I get hit with this thing, I might start running as hard and as fast as I can to get away from it, which might accidentally lead me towards the troops, and I really don't want to get shot.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

I agree, it's not a wundergun panacea(that would be a phaser).

In some situations it would be useless, and some situations would escalate the conflict. But can't the same be said for CS gas, rubber bullets, water cannons, troops in riot gear, etc?.

 

CS and water cannon flat out knock the snot out of people, so not in the same class of weapon. Rubber bullets can be lethal, so I haven't mentioned them yet, as I'm against them on principal. May as well use real bullets IMO. Troops in riot gear will break a rowdy mob unless they're seriously outnumbered, so they serve the same purpose as CS/water cannon, or complement it. I'm either clarifying or nit-picking this part of your response, though, so I'll leave it at that. =D The rest, I pretty much agree with you on.

[Vondy]

Re: Military Develops Non-Lethal Ray Gun

 

Which would be great if they were the (civilian) police...