gregghelmberger Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Ok, I know this is a subject liable to ignite a flame war, but I'm wondering about Mutants and Masterminds. I'm currently running a Champions PBEM and I'm always on the lookout for source material to make my life easier. I just picked up a lot of M&M stuff (Noir, Crooks!, Annual #1 Sourcebook, Freedom City and Foes of Freedom) off eBay for very little money, and I want to know what I can expect. Is the game generally high quality? How does it differ from Hero? And are there any guidelines for converting M&M stats to Hero? Please note, I'm definitely not considering changing the game itself to M&M, I just want to use some material. Any advice or info is appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds I don't think you need to fear a flame war, as quite a few folks around here hold M&M in pretty high regard. I haven't played it, but it's on my "to get" list. I think you should be pleased by the quality of the material based on a lot of reviews and threads I've read, and if you're using it for background stuff for a Champions/Hero system game, then the issue of 2nd Edition M&M compatibility should be no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattingly Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Although we do not have published conversion stats, we at BlackWyrm Games have statted two superhero books (The Algernon Files, The Fires of War) for each system. If you think of picking up M&M to run with, we have 2nd Ed M&M versions available; but if you want to raid material for your own Champions game, pick up our HERO System versions. They're available in print and PDF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakSpade Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Ok' date=' I know this is a subject liable to ignite a flame war, but I'm wondering about Mutants and Masterminds. I'm currently running a Champions PBEM and I'm always on the lookout for source material to make my life easier. I just picked up a lot of M&M stuff (Noir, Crooks!, Annual #1 Sourcebook, Freedom City and Foes of Freedom) off eBay for very little money, and I want to know what I can expect. Is the game generally high quality? How does it differ from Hero? And are there any guidelines for converting M&M stats to Hero? Please note, I'm definitely not considering changing the game itself to M&M, I just want to use some material. Any advice or info is appreciated.[/quote'] The general advice when people talk about converting from two vastly different systems is this: Forget the mechanics and go with the theme. If you know what an ability does in one system, just model it in the other system. Don't worry about point values, balance and what not. Just build it how you think it should work in your system of choice. And Hero/M&M are no different. If you worry too much about getting it "right", then you'll be fiddling a long time. jak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds The source material's excellent. Freedom City's probably one of the best superhero city books ever written. Crooks and Foes of Freedom are both full of fascinating characters [many from Foes are Marvel and DC homages. Crooks has more of an Image feel to me]. The Annual is just full of various things. I personally enjoyed the material on Legacies coving the golden age and silver age characters from the Freedom city universe. And Freedom City 2525 is a great Legion of Superheroes homage section. Noir is about gaming during the film noir period of the late 40/early 50s. Not really my cup of tea. All of those books are for the 1st edition of the game. I didn't care for that edition [too d&d for my tastes]. I started a conversion thread here but never finished it because I got involved with M&M 2nd edition [the gamer are different enough that my 2e conversion system won't work easily for 1e]. If you have USPD you can spot-create the characters just based on what you can make out from their character sheets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Here's all the M&M/HERO conversion material on the Internet that I'm aware of, including MitchellS's fine work. --------------------------------------------------- 4E HERO writeups for many of the characters from the M&M sourcebook Freedom City, by FC author Steve Kenson: http://members.aol.com/talonstudio/freedomcity/fchero.html 5E writeup for the Centurion, from Freedom City: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14907 Conversion of M&M First Edition Characteristics, Skills, Feats and Superfeats, and Super-Power points: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23471 [particularly Post #13] Discussion comparing character and weapon damage capability between M&M and HERO: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14626 Guidelines and examples for converting to M&M 2E from HERO (but mostly usable in the other direction as well): http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=266549 -------------------------------------------------- BTW these were taken from my RPG conversion compilation list, via the link in my signature, below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Although we do not have published conversion stats, we at BlackWyrm Games have statted two superhero books (The Algernon Files, The Fires of War) for each system. If you think of picking up M&M to run with, we have 2nd Ed M&M versions available; but if you want to raid material for your own Champions game, pick up our HERO System versions. They're available in print and PDF. These are extremely good books, and very worth your time. As to M&M, the quality of the setting and characters is generally high. They have some very good writers and artists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregghelmberger Posted February 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Great, thanks for all your input! That will help a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds If you're interested you can download some samples from the books you've got coming from here: http://mutantsandmasterminds.com/gimmicks_gadgets/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monster Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Ohhhhh - you mean Mutants and *MASTERMINDS* I thought this was another of those erotic RPG threads..... Never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Mutants and Metermaids? Cue cheesey music and ... action! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Well, I'm NOT a fan of Mutants and Masterminds. There's a number of reasons why I don't like the system, but I'll say this again and again. On art and presentation, they have Hero beat, and it's KILLING us. While a lot of us aren't "Pretty Pictures" roleplayers, and we can make do with black and white art, I always, when I design an adventure for Digital Hero, try to make it have usefulness beyond itself. One of the ways I do that is by blowing scads of my own money on color artwork. The other is by making sure most adventures have at least a couple of maps, even if they're of stupid things like a middle class home, or a not so stupid Museum Lobby. I just draw the roughs (And trust me, they're UGLY) and turn them over to Dave to do. Nonetheless, there's a lot of valuble writing in those books. I just think Hero's the best system ever made for superheroes, and there's no need to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds I tend to like the source material. The Freedom City setting is more to my taste than CU5th. I tend to like the characters (even if thier source they are homaging is a little to obvious), but they are very well done. My beef with the stuff is the system, which I can't stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperKlaus Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds On art and presentation, they have Hero beat, and it's KILLING us. Ugh, tell me about it. I love this system but my will to purchase supplements fades as I see pictures reprinted over and over, especially considering the core book is all I really need. Much of the art was crap in the first place. It scares me. I tell you when my lotto ticket scores big I'm buying HERO some quality artists. I wonder if a talent search wouldn't prove fruitful. I mean, I know two guys myself, both students and therefore cheap, both capable of producing at least one or two pictures on a deadline, and both dreaming of having their stuff seen. Here's one's page: http://the-scarlet-deiter.deviantart.com/ Is he good? Maybe, maybe not, it's open to opinion. I like him of course, 'specially because he's doing some character arts for me. Is he better than some of that high-schooler-doodling-in-his-notebook anime-inspired crap that's cropped up a couple times in HERO products? I think that's absolute. And he'd love to get published somehow. He can maybe even handle color, though I'm sure the B&W exclusiveness has more to do with DoJ's funds than artists' abilities. What do you guys say? Wanna discuss prettyin' HERO up in General or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Well, Steve has said that it's a flat-out business decision. They just don't have the money to pay artists, and the extra art doesn't sell enough extra books to justify the investment. I'd love to see more and better art too, but I understand until someone actually does win the lotto it won't happen. HERO needs some sort of breakthrough so they can hire a couple of extra staff to handle it. While we are dreaming though, I'd love to see someone made Art Director. That's what they really need, someone very talented who can talk to artists in their own language. Maybe Mark Williams, who used to do art for HERO in the 80's and I understand has his own studio in LA now. Keith Curtis needs to be in the mix somewhere as an experienced artist, and for new artists I'd vote for Jennie Breeden and Danielle Corsetto. Yeow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds It's pretty; I love Steve Kenison's writing. however, I can't get into the setting. The sheer number of copycat characters loses me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds It's pretty; I love Steve Kenison's writing. however, I can't get into the setting. I think part of what makes me a HERO or GURPS gamer is that I don't really buy a system for the setting. The setting goes a long way to helping me enjoy a game book, and I'm more likely to buy supplements for ideas if the setting is cool, but ultimately I have my own settings I want to build, rather than playing in someone else's. That isn't to say that you can't use M&M or whatever rules system to build your own setting; of course you can. However, when it comes to the tools for setting building, I prefer HERO. My second choice would be GURPS. In terms of settings, Godlike and Weapons of the Gods rocked, but the ORE system doesn't appeal to me at all. M&M boasts a pretty good system and a pretty good setting, making it an overall good choice for Supers games. I think HERO is better, but in this kind of comparison personal preference does count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken julian Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds I love Champions, it's the only game I play, but until they update Stronghold Mutants & Masterminds' Lockdown is the best book about super prisons I've ever seen. Great maps story ideas , etc. worth the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds While we are dreaming though' date=' I'd love to see someone made Art Director. That's what they really need, someone very talented who can talk to artists in their own language.[/quote'] Andy is Hero's art director. He speaks artistese. Maybe Mark Williams, who used to do art for HERO in the 80's and I understand has his own studio in LA now. Mark has been dead for 10-15 years now. I miss his artwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds It's pretty; I love Steve Kenison's writing. however, I can't get into the setting. The sheer number of copycat characters loses me. Have you looked much at the Champions universe? If Dr. Destroyer wasn't a Dr. Doom copy do you think anyone would still be talking about him 25 years later? Same for Grond and so many others. Copycat characters are what make 4 color gaming [which is what the CU is] interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds I love Champions' date=' it's the only game I play, but until they update Stronghold Mutants & Masterminds' Lockdown is the best book about super prisons I've ever seen. Great maps story ideas , etc. worth the money.[/quote'] Lockdown's an excellent book. It takes the superhero prison into some interesting directions. And Golden Marvel is just a great character! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds I have Lockdown. It made me go MEH. Now Escape from Alcatraz is a great prison book. And I have Grammercy Island which has some wonderful bad guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds . And I have Grammercy Island which has some wonderful bad guys. Yeah, if you want a dark or Iron age kind of superprison that is amazingly good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Have you looked much at the Champions universe? If Dr. Destroyer wasn't a Dr. Doom copy do you think anyone would still be talking about him 25 years later? Same for Grond and so many others. Copycat characters are what make 4 color gaming [which is what the CU is] interesting. Yeah, but apparently I believe Darren and Steve are better at it. And I don't count nearly as many. I'm surprised M&M's Aquaman (Siren's Predicessor) wasn't named Ruhtra; he was at least as bad as something Leifield did. *cough* Roman*cough* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Yeah' date=' but apparently I believe Darren and Steve are better at it. And I don't count nearly as many.[/quote'] As for who's a better writer, that's subjective and doesn't matter. As for homages, you mustn't have been paying attention. Homage lists have been posted to these boards at least 3-4 times. Defender: Ironman Nighthawk: Batman Sapphire: Dazzler Dr. Siverback: Beast Kinetik: Flash Star*Guard: Green Lantern Corp Fabulous Five: Fantastic Four Amazing Man I: Mr. Fantastic Diamond: Thing Kid Chameleon: Beast Boy UNTIL: SHIELD Robert Caliburn: Constantine MeteorMan: Golden Age Green Lantern Brin Rei Tam: Abin Sur Nightwind: Nighthawk Prince Marus: Namor Archon: Orion Witness: Phantom Stranger Patriot: Superman/Captain America Vanguard: Superman That's just 20 good guys off the top of my head. I could probably double that in villains off the top of my head as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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