Richest Man in the World Disease

[Balabanto]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

The problem is that you can't adjucate conflicts between individuals with "Unlimited" wealth. How do you determine whose unlimited wealth is greater?

 

If bob wants to buy a widget, and fred wants to buy a widget, and they both have unlimited money, how much of that unlimited can they put into buying the widget?

 

This might have NO relevance, but PLAYERS may duke it out over it, because they're players and that's what they do.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

What do you mean by widget? Are we talking expensive sports cars? One-of-a-kind works of art (like the Mona Lisa)? The Frabjulous Death-Ray of Genghis Khan?

 

I guess I'm still confused. In the case of the first, why does it matter how many expensive sports cars people have in the campaign? In the case of the second, it's simple -- whoever asked for it first got it. In the case of the third... in any comicbook universe I've ever seen, Frabjulous Death-Rays might as well be growing on trees (but in Champions, you've still got to pay points for them no matter how much money you've got).

 

Are you allowing your players to purchase game-related items (powered armor, death rays, secret bases, super vehicles, etc) with money rather than points?

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

A person's "net worth" is not necessarily determined by one formula, especially when you're considering the worth of investments (which, with a very wealthy person, are probably changing hourly and maybe even minute-by-minute), companies owned, etc. One financial analyst might say Joe Smith is wealthier than John Doe based on one formula, and another analyst might switch their positions based on another formula for calculating net worth.

 

Personally? I'd come up with several different "formulas" of my own (based on various stats, skills, etc.), and list the "top twenty wealthiest" based on these formulas (including any written-up NPCs based on the same formulae, and plugging in miscellaneous other NPCs to flesh it out). It shouldn't be hard to create a databse or spreadsheet to plug all this into so it does all the calcluations and rankings automatically. And DON'T TELL THE PLAYERS WHAT THE FORMULAS ARE except in general terms ("The Neo York Times places a lot more value on recent company activity and current market fluctuations, while Furbes Magazine's list is more conservative, looking at longer-term values.").

 

Formula #1 (Furbes 500) might be something like INT + PRE + 4*(average of amount made rolling all Business-related KS's) + 0.5*(random fudge factor to represent current events realted to his holdings)

 

Forumula #2 (NYT Hot 100) could be INT + PRE + COM + 6*(average of amount made rolling all Business-related KS) + (Number of Luck dice) - (Number of Unluck dice) + (random fudge factor as above).

 

So MegaCorpMan might be #1 on the Furbes Five Hundred, but #3 on the Neo York Times Hot Hundred list.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Since there seems to be some sort of bizarre obssession/fear of wealth in the games you run (how do you feel about wealthy people in real life? LOL) you could just jump right outside the box and house rule the problem.

 

It appears that your take on the Wealth perk is not in sync with either the Hero System rules or the superhero genre.

 

If you have to know who has more of what just rethink the Wealth perk from the ground up. Skipping ahead to the most expensive Wealth perk...

 

Wealth 15 points - The player starts with $15 billion and can spend an additional character point for each additional billion. The GM and player will then track all expenses (everything; even if the tech guy spends character points on a new jetpack you make him also spend $17,000,000 on reaserch and development) and income (income due to job, investments, patents, land speculation, business deals, etc.). As the campaign unfolds the character could gain further wealth or even lose it all, but never get his fifteen points back. Same basic system for the lesser Wealth perk.

 

Not at all in genre (and I would never do this myself) but maybe something like this could prevent future problems.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Wealth 15 points - The player starts with $15 billion and can spend an additional character point for each additional billion. The GM and player will then track all expenses (everything; even if the tech guy spends character points on a new jetpack you make him also spend $17' date='000,000 on reaserch and development) and income (income due to job, investments, patents, land speculation, business deals, etc.). As the campaign unfolds the character could gain further wealth or even lose it all, but never get his fifteen points back. Same basic system for the lesser Wealth perk. [/quote']

 

Of course, if you use a system like that you will likely find yourself playing a game of Billionaires & Businessmen. But you'll know who is truely the richest player in your game.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

How about a game of HERO Monopoly?

 

Bill.

(Dr. Destroyer just put a hotel on Boardwalk! If anyone lands there, they're dooooooomed!)

[TheRealVector]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

How about a game of HERO Monopoly?

 

Bill.

(Dr. Destroyer just put a hotel on Boardwalk! If anyone lands there, they're dooooooomed!)

 

That idea's just so crazy it might work! LOL

[Silbeg]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

And you have to call in sick at your place of employment if you need to go save the world and it isn't after 5pm or during your lunch break...

 

Usually, 0 pts in wealth puts you in 9-5 job territory.

 

Not to be a stickler, but wouldn't Nine to Five Job be a social limitation for most campaigns?

 

Not saying that most characters wouldn't have a 9-5 job, or whatever, but if you are going to make it an issue in the game, I would think a suitable social limitation should be allowed.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

How about a game of HERO Monopoly?

 

Bill.

(Dr. Destroyer just put a hotel on Boardwalk! If anyone lands there, they're dooooooomed!)

 

Repped!

[Silbeg]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Now, I will start by saying that I really haven't had this problem in my games, ever. It is reasonably common for my players to give their characters a few points of wealth (up to 5), since they typically want their backgrounds to be interesting. This also tends to free them from having to worry about their characters mundane life.

 

On the other hand, the leader of the North Force, Aegis, is an immortal, and has wealth just by having lived that long, still has a job. In his case, he is owns an auto mechanic's garage. Does this really have an effect on the game? Not unless I, the GM, make it so (and I have )

 

Major Force, on the other hand, could have wealth from several angles. He is a paranormal medical researcher at the River City Institute for Paranormal Medicine, which carries the SocLim of "On Call" - which has come into play. However, the real source of his 5 points of wealth is his brick-trick "Coal Into Diamonds". This ability is also the cause of his Hunted: De Beers (who fiercely acts to control the diamond market worldwide). While De Beers executives (and lawyers, etc) are not a threat physically to a superhero (as a corporation, they would have 15 points of wealth), they are able to excert untold amounts of pressure, not the least by hiring teams of mercenary villains to take out Major Force. He has responded by not creating massive quantities of diamonds, but he can make wealth pretty much whenever he needs it.

 

This background came out after Major Force's player (Mark) saw the power written up in TUB, and wanted it. Aegis's player was adamant that he not get it, because of the way De Beers acts in the real world. Mark saw that as an interesting way to get a hunted, some psych lims, etc. So far, it has worked out well (though the hunted has yet to have direct affect in the game...)

 

---

 

So, that is my 1000th post. Had to make it what I hope is a good one!

[Kenn]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

The problem is that you can't adjucate conflicts between individuals with "Unlimited" wealth. How do you determine whose unlimited wealth is greater?

 

If bob wants to buy a widget, and fred wants to buy a widget, and they both have unlimited money, how much of that unlimited can they put into buying the widget?

 

This might have NO relevance, but PLAYERS may duke it out over it, because they're players and that's what they do.

 

Then your players need to grow up.

 

Or one of them can pay 16 pts. for unlimited wealth (sacrificing something really important like 2 COM points). They'll both be unlimited, but the one's will intrisicly be the "larger inifinity" because he paid points for it.

 

Then around the time you have someone paying 22 pts. of wealth (as the one-up-manship continues) someone will realise they're putting points into real life bragging rights. And maybe then they'll grow up.

[input.jack]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

The problem is that you can't adjucate conflicts between individuals with "Unlimited" wealth. How do you determine whose unlimited wealth is greater?

 

 

Has this ever really come up?

 

As the Bunny said, if theyre buying ever-more-expensive sports cars...who cares? If theyre bidding against each other for works of art...who cares? After a certain point you say "If you guys bid any more on this painting, youll both be acting at Wealth 10 for the rest of the year" or something, and see whos willing to go there. If theyre trying to buy the Frabjulous Death Ray of Genghis Khan... WHY ARE THEY TRYING TO DO THAT?

 

If theyre both heroes, they should be working toward the common good.

 

How is it that you see these ultra-wealthy heroes coming into conflict with one another? Has Bruce Wayne ever tried to use the might of Wayne Enterprises to crush that upstart, Ted Kord?

 

No.

 

I just dont see this as being a problem.

 

Plus, if both PCs have "unlimited wealth", and they try to destroy one another, simply tell them that they have both managed to lock up all their liquid assets in a pointless fiscal battle, and that neither one can access their wealth till they reach a compromise.

 

In other words, dont let EITHER win. (Unless one of the PCs has a Master Plan, and the other doesnt)

 

Thats my take on it.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Has this ever really come up?

 

As the Bunny said, if theyre buying ever-more-expensive sports cars...who cares? If theyre bidding against each other for works of art...who cares? After a certain point you say "If you guys bid any more on this painting, youll both be acting at Wealth 10 for the rest of the year" or something, and see whos willing to go there. If theyre trying to buy the Frabjulous Death Ray of Genghis Khan... WHY ARE THEY TRYING TO DO THAT?

 

If theyre both heroes, they should be working toward the common good.

 

How is it that you see these ultra-wealthy heroes coming into conflict with one another? Has Bruce Wayne ever tried to use the might of Wayne Enterprises to crush that upstart, Ted Kord?

 

No.

 

I just dont see this as being a problem.

 

Plus, if both PCs have "unlimited wealth", and they try to destroy one another, simply tell them that they have both managed to lock up all their liquid assets in a pointless fiscal battle, and that neither one can access their wealth till they reach a compromise.

 

In other words, dont let EITHER win. (Unless one of the PCs has a Master Plan, and the other doesnt)

 

Thats my take on it.

 

Repped! That way their game of "Escalation" will not be rewarded, diminishing the incentive to compete in that manner.

[Silbeg]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

In general' date=' Blacksword, I don't have a lot of villains who are "mass murder man."[/quote']

 

Funny that you say that, since one of the groups that had caused my players some headaches is GRAB... mostly because they have had problems even capturing them!

 

The last time they faced GRAB, Hummingbird flew away in her tiny size, Cheshire Cat t-ported out (even though he was under the influence of a Mental Paralysis (Entangle) he was able to get away... though still paralyzed!). Black Diamond grabbed the unconscious Rigor Mortis (who was the one who paralyzed Cheshire), and leapt through the roof, hostage in hand.

 

The team found Rigor outside the mall, sleeping peacefully.

 

The key to the frustration is that GRAB tends to try and run, rather than fight, which honestly is a better strategy than "Hey, look. Let's pound those heroes into smithereens, and then take our loot!"

 

But, then again, a previous name for the team was The Recyclers, since they kept fighting the same suite of villains... over and over again.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Repped!

 

Or I would've if I hadn't already repped him earlier today.

 

I only ever ran one characte with Wealth, and he had just 10 points' worth. It sounds like the players are seeing incentives to Wealth that you're not catching. You don't need to "poison the well(th)" to get them to consider lesser amounts of wealth. everyone here has already pointed out several ways to handle the situation, and I think Input.Jack's solution is the most likely to bear fruit.

 

15 points of wealth just isn't very powerful, unless you're a normal. Don't let it be used in overly powerful ways. 15 points of almost anything else might be equally useful, but let's face it, a 1d6 RKA, +3 DEX or +15 STR might impress the Yokels, but Superduperman hardly notices the hail of bullets when he's beaking up a bank job perpetrated by normals. If The Great and Powerful Doorknob™, a villain with powerful offenses and defenses, were to rob a bank, Superduperman might have some problems.

 

fifteen points of wealth = a pistol. In a supers campaign, it might be nice to have, but it won't in and of itself unbalance the game. At least it shouldn't.

[RPMiller]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

You could also break out the master villain, Uncle Sam! "Let's see now, I notice that your accountant hasn't actually paid any of your taxes for 10 years now. I believe you owe us some back taxes, plus penalties of course... Hmm... you don't seem to have enough. Perhaps some time in prison is in store."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Plus' date=' if both PCs have "unlimited wealth", and they try to destroy one another, simply tell them that they have both managed to lock up all their liquid assets in a pointless fiscal battle, and that neither one can access their wealth till they reach a compromise.[/quote']

 

I like this approach. You could even have each character gradually lose points of wealth as they tie up more and more in this battle neither of them can really win (then have a villain with 10 points of wealth have a "radiation accident" by wiping them both out while their fortunes are tied up battling one another, taking over both their Wealth).

 

An alternative approach would be to let the two 15 point Wealth characters start this fiscal war, and ask each how much of their wealth they're prepared to commit (sealed bids - you only get one chance). You both roll a Business Skill (you DO have appropriate business skills, don't you?) modified at -1 per point of Wealth committed. The winner wipes out the loser, but also loses points in Wealth that he bid. Let's say Wealth points recover at 1 point per season as you cash in illiquid investments and generate investment returns.

 

Simple option? Well, you both have 15 Wealth, so I guess I'll toss a coin to see who wins. Loser's bankrupt!

 

Rob them of their wealth when they start this nonsense, and maybe they'll get back to role playing some Supers!

[TheRealVector]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

An alternative approach would be to let the two 15 point Wealth characters start this fiscal war' date=' and ask each how much of their wealth they're prepared to commit (sealed bids - you only get one chance). You both roll a Business Skill (you DO have appropriate business skills, don't you?) modified at -1 per point of Wealth committed. The winner wipes out the loser, but also loses points in Wealth that he bid. Let's say Wealth points recover at 1 point per season as you cash in illiquid investments and generate investment returns.[/quote']

 

Great idea! Can I use it in my new Billionaires & Businessmen genre book? LOL

[Tiree]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Right now I am playing a character with a 15 points in wealth (it was the character concept - akin to Howard Hughes). The GM flat out said - don't abuse it. I myself took it to heart enough so, that the other players keep on asking "can you buy this?" or "Let's borrow his personal jet". Of course my character has a "Greedy" disadvantage and regularly requires people to pay him for expenses.

 

But I mainly use the wealth perk to explain how and why the character has access to equipment, vehicles and bases. It has also been a plot hook based on another 5 point disadvantage of a rivalry that spawned a whole campaign!

[Pariah]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Great idea! Can I use it in my new Billionaires & Businessmen genre book? LOL

I want a copy of that Billionaires & Businessmen genre book...as long as it's not prohibitively expensive!

[Manic Typist]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I like the idea of two characters going to war, using all of their skills, powers, and yes, Wealth, to try and take each other down.

 

I'd use their approrpiate skills and rolls to modify this Wealth War.

[Mephron]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I play in Balabanto's game, and he's going to be mickle annoyed at me a tad, I think.

 

The prime motivator for a lot of this is, really, one or two players. They insist in having characters who are the ne plus ultra, the best of the best, the top of the top. One of them has a character who owns an entire top-tier cable network; another character of the same player is a minor European noble with luck powers who is, for all intents, almost unstoppably rich. (He's also famous, handsome, and photogenic, which is why he doesn't get thrown out gambling places; he's good PR.)

 

I have a character who I spent some points on Wealth (2) on to represent the ability to rent a three-bedroom apartment on the East Side (not even the Upper West Side!) of Manhattan and be a 'consulting occultist'. Another has zero and is in fact has 'poor' as a disad, after lawsuits and government problems based on a lab equipment failure that some crusading journalist blamed on her as an accident. A third, a gadgeteer, has bought 10 points of Wealth over the years, just to deal with the side effects of being just about the smartest person on Earth, and a compulsive inventor. Part of the wealth is actually being used for ANOTHER PC'S BACKGROUND. (He's a hero/extreme sports type, and the corporation the gadgeteer runs is one of the character's sponsors.)

 

I'm going to briefly quote from the rules in the Sidekick here, which I have easily at hand:

Money may not make the world go round, but it can help motivate PCs.

This Perk is most applicable in Heroic games, where characters spend money in the game to buy things. In Superheroic campaigns, where characters buy equipment with Character Points, Money isn’t as important.

The accompanying table gives the point cost for various levels of annual income.

 

It doesn't indicate EITHER WAY whether this is before or after you 'upkeep your equipment' or 'train' or whatever. The rule is a bit wobbly when you get down to it. I think a lot of it comes down to interpretation.

 

Balabanto and I have had a lot of rules debates/discussions/arguments over the myriad millenia of our existences, and this will continue to be one of them. But my feelings tend to me that the problem is that there are people who will go 'ooh, and WEALTH!' just for the shiny factor, over those who go 'and my concept needs me to have a bit more cash than most people, so I should grab a couple points of wealth to model that, even if it causes me some issues right now'.

 

The problem is that those who go "ooh, shiny" are really very annoyingly shinychasing, and it drives those of us that more want it for the purposes of "well that explains x y and z on my sheet in a sane and rational manner" rather mad. I am one of those with the madness; Balabanto is as well, just a tad more that way.

 

(Frankly, if Mind Over Matter goes the way it looks to go, we're going to have at least one of the Big Shiny PCs with most of his life in ruins when it's over, and since he's been a pain in the butt for years and years, I don't think a character of mine will cry.)

 

And JUST to cover things: I was there for the Last Great Stronghold Breakout, when a superhero woke up a Malvan war-robot disguised as an ancient statue, and it went to find the nearest Malvan: Firewing. Who was, you guessed it, in Stronghold. That was a HELL of a fight, including Thok's still-record STUN negatives (martial artist Shoryuken's Thok, elevator falls on Thok, elevator falls on Thok again, The Monster falls on Thok and then the Elevator on them both, then the explosions), Giganto getting 2" of knockback with 1" of mesa left before he fell to the ground, and all the fun stuff. Not every supervillian gets out easily, y'understand.

 

Except those damn Pomegrante Brothers....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I'm going to briefly quote from the rules in the Sidekick here, which I have easily at hand:

 

It doesn't indicate EITHER WAY whether this is before or after you 'upkeep your equipment' or 'train' or whatever. The rule is a bit wobbly when you get down to it. I think a lot of it comes down to interpretation.

 

I don't think you can reasonably apply "before upkeep" or "after upkeep" to heroic and superheroic campaigns alike. In heroic games, money is used to buy and maintain equipment, so it is the source of character abilities. A character of "unlimited wealth" in a fantasy or space opera game has an advantage that goes well beyond 15 points - if it can be purchased, he can buy it, so he (and his friends) should reasonably have the best armor, weaponry and transport that money can buy. Wealthy characters in such games will lose wealth acquiring and maintaining gear.

 

In a Supers game, however, we spend points, not wealth, to acquire gear. With this in mind, Wealth should be measured as "what the character has left to do things with after maintaining those things he paid character points for". To say a character must pay 15 points to be permitted to benefit from his spending of other character points is, to me, ridiculous.

 

The problem is that those who go "ooh' date=' shiny" are really very annoyingly shinychasing, and it drives those of us that more want it for the purposes of "well that explains x y and z on my sheet in a sane and rational manner" rather mad. I am one of those with the madness; Balabanto is as well, just a tad more that way.[/quote']

 

So if I spend 15 points on wealth because I want my character to have effectively unlimited wealth, that's somehow wrong? I don't really agree there. Would a character who spend 15 points on COM because their character is amazingly attractive - nothing to do with their other abilities, the character just happens to be amazingly attractive - also be considered "shinychasing"? By paying 15 points for wealth, and showcasing it, I think the player has effectively made Wealth a part of the character's schtick. Another player may have a character with 15 points' wealth who doesn't show it off, and it's a background element ("You never told us you were the Prince of an alternate dimension where gold grows on trees." "well, you never asked, did you?").

 

So he's wealthy and he likes to flaunt it. Is that a lot different from a character with Overconfidence who constantly goes on about how he's unbeatable, or one with a strong Code vs Killing who regularly moralizes about the inappropriateness of using lethal force against unknown targets, the immorality of war, or the need to "be better than our opponents"? They're all just translating something on their character sheet into a character personality - how can that be bad?

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I hate that too. Which is why in the games I run' date=' when someone says "I want to be THE BEST [whatever'] in the WORLD!!", I tell them, "No. You can be ONE OF the best [whatevers] in the world. There is no THE BEST in just about any field. There are experts, there are masters, there are those who push the boundaries. But its almost impossible to be THE BEST whatever, because whatever youre trying to judge can be seen from different angles. Want to be the best pilot in the world? Does that mean the highest skill roll? The most readily adaptable to flying unknown and alien aircraft? The pilot who flew the highest? The pilot best able to keep a plane in the air when its damaged? All of these can be considered "the best" at piloting, but they are all different aspects, and no one person should be able to claim -all- of them. If you want to be ONE OF the best, thats fine. But theres always someone cleverer than yourself. Merlin said so"

 

 

I hope that gives you some ammunution next time a Player wants to be THE Best at something.

Umm... why not? Having someone be the best in the worlsd at something is completely in genre. Afterall, the Hulk is the strongest one there is, the Flash is the fastest man alive, Batman is the world's greatest detective, Dr. Strange is the sorceror supreme... why can one of your PCs be the absolute best in the world at something? Afterall, this is not real life (where, yes, there is always somebody better; if not now, eventually), it is superhero comic book-style RPGs.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

The problem is that those who go "ooh, shiny" are really very annoyingly shinychasing, and it drives those of us that more want it for the purposes of "well that explains x y and z on my sheet in a sane and rational manner" rather mad. I am one of those with the madness; Balabanto is as well, just a tad more that way.

 

I still don't see what the real problem is here. It's starting to sound like a simple case of envy. Really pathetic envy. Why do you care if other characters are rich?

 

If the game is being run according to the Hero system rules then all that wealth really amounts to is flavor text and plot hooks. GMs should like easy plot hooks, right? As for flavor text...

 

GM: "OK, guys you've defeated the villain's latest mad schemes...what now?

 

Player #1 (Wealth Perk 5 pts): "I'm meeting some friends for a few beers and then I'm heading back to my basement lab to work on some modifications to my latest gadgets."

 

Player #2 (No Wealth Perk): "Uh oh, this fight took longer than I hoped. I need to come up with an excuse why I've been on a three and a half hour lunch break. I guess I better get back to work and speak with my boss. If that goes well then later it's back to my crummy apartment"

 

Player #3 (Wealth Perk 15 pts): "After changing back into my secret ID of billionaire playboy I'll have my chauffer drive me to my waiting jet and them immediately fly to my private island in the caribbean for my secret rendevous with Angelina Jolie. I'm hoping the thirty million dollar diamond pendant I'm giving her will finally lure her away from that Pitt jerk."

 

So who cares what Player #3 does. Would that make you feel inadequate or something? Just flavor text with really not many more plot hooks than the nine to five joe who has to juggle his secret ID with his job.

 

Maybe some of the people in your campaign just need to lighten up and stop worrying about the other guy. If the GM really doesn't like it why doesn't he just tell the player to get the hell out of his game? He apparently has forty-nine other players.