Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Good lord, has HEROdom Assembled actually reached a concensus?!

[Force]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Totally disagree. Bricks are one of the most' date=' if not the most, efficient and survivable archetypes.[/quote']

 

QFE

[Force]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

As long as combats are always personal' date=' with both sides present on the same non-megascale map, that is likely to be true. Once you get to conditions where indirect fire is the norm and combats begin well out of line-of-sight range, it may shift. That's a campaign situation interacting with the rules, rather than the rules themselves, though.[/quote']

 

There are many ways to equalize out your range deficiencies on a brick...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Also disagree. You could just as easily say that *all* achetypes are hosed by this rule:

 

Speedsters and Martial Artists can't put their DEX and SPD and Martial Arts and Skill Levels into an EC.

Mentalists can't put their EGO and Mental Defence into an EC.

Energy Projectors (whose powers almost *all* cost END, such as their Force Fields) can't put their END (or END Reserve) into their EC.

 

And there are plenty of other powers like Multiform, Duplication, Lack of Weakness, Life Support, etc., frequently used by non-bricks that can't be put in an EC.

 

And if the problem is ECs, Bricks aren't really the issue. Either characters with ECs would consistantly outclass characters without ECs, or vice versa. I've never seen either to be the case.

[Vondy]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

The traditional characteristics centered brick doesn't suffer from it because he gets to leverage both the versatility of strength and the nested points he gets in figured characteristics - it remains a tight, efficient design. It might fall behind the curve at the high-end of the scale, but I haven't crunched any numbers to verify that. A powers based brick would take a bigger hit from it, but it wouldn't cripple him. Traditional bricks are simply solid characters. As for the current EC rules, they hose a lot of concepts in terms of applicability, which is why I've ignored the new restrictions and only consider them "loose guidelines."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

End cost is somewhat arbitrary but it is the most obvious measuring stick we have.

 

I don't see this particular rule providing much in the way of balance or logic, which makes it even more arbitrary. We could say that only powers that fit on one line of the character sheet can be in an EC. That would be just as arbitrary, just as odd (smaller writing/more acronyms = more options) and contribute about the same amount to balance.

[jtelson]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I don't see this particular rule providing much in the way of balance or logic' date=' which makes it even more arbitrary. We could say that only powers that fit on one line of the character sheet can be in an EC. That would be just as arbitrary, just as odd (smaller writing/more acronyms = more options) and contribute about the same amount to balance.[/quote']

 

I never really thought of it as arbitrary. It seems to me that end cost is the perfect limiter for a power framework that allow you to use all of the powers in it simultaneously.

That the EC exists at all is a little odd, It doesn't really add anything to the game - The other two power framworks each simulate effects and abilities that are seen in comics regularly, EC's aren't really anything other than free points because your concept wasn't completely insane.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I never really thought of it as arbitrary. It seems to me that end cost is the perfect limiter for a power framework that allow you to use all of the powers in it simultaneously.

 

Yet I can buy an EC of Healing, 0 END, Force Field, 0 END, Energy Blast, 0 END and Flight, 0 END, so that's not limiting me all that much, is it? "By the book" only requires that powers that didn't cost END by default to cost END in the EC. Any power that did cost END by default can have that advantaged away.

[Gary]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Just about the most efficient construct in 5th edition is a brick with a EC and base martial arts, if built straight without limitations.

[jtelson]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Yet I can buy an EC of Healing' date=' 0 END, Force Field, 0 END, Energy Blast, 0 END and Flight, 0 END, so that's not limiting me all that much, is it? "By the book" only requires that powers that didn't cost END by default to cost END in the EC. Any power that did cost END by default can have that advantaged away.[/quote']

 

Sure, you can pay an upcharge in order to get a discount and your constant powers (The ones that can be layered) will still turn off if you're stunned unless you pay additional points in order to save those original points. Unless you're really layering on other advantages the 'has or had an end cost' seems a very reasonable limiter to keep EC's in check. Only if someone is using low value constant powers with 4-5+ advantages do they gain significant utility by applying 0-end to their constant powers in an EC.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Sure' date=' you can pay an upcharge in order to get a discount and your constant powers (The ones that can be layered) will still turn off if you're stunned unless you pay additional points in order to save those original points. Unless you're really layering on other advantages the 'has or had an end cost' seems a very reasonable limiter to keep EC's in check. Only if someone is using low value constant powers with 4-5+ advantages do they gain significant utility by applying 0-end to their constant powers in an EC.[/quote']

 

 

If I was going to buy 4 powers that normally cost END to 0 END anyway, at 40 AP (6 with 0 END) they would have cost 240 points. In the EC, they cost 150. Hpw has the "must either cost END by default or have the costs END limitation" restriction limited my EC?

 

These powers would have shut off if I was stunned regardless of whether they were in my EC. If I wanted them not to shut down, I would have had to pay for Persistent. That makes each power 80 points, for a total of 320 outside the EC or 200 in my EC. Again, I don't feel limited.

 

Let's assume I wanted 3 powers at the 40 point level, and one at 60 (let's say that's my main attack power). I could get an EC for 120 points (40 for the first power, 20 each for the next two, plus another 40 for the attack). Or I could make my three ancillary powers 0 END, and pay 150 points (60 for the first power and 30 for each added power), cutting the cost of 0 END in half. Again, I'm not feeling very limited.

[Tech]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Good lord' date=' has HEROdom Assembled actually reached a concensus?! [/quote']

 

Looks like a possibility here.

[pinecone]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Hypothesis: the rules invalidating powers that don't cost END from being placed in a framework, specifically an elemental control, hose the average brick. Most plain-vanilla archetypes can arrange an EC for their mainstay powers, but with the exception of STR, a brick's mainstay (mainly defensive) powers like increased PD or ED, armor, damage resistance/reduction, increased CON or BODY, etc., aren't allowed in an elemental control. This makes bricks more expensive to build in general than other archetypes.

 

Would you agree or disagree with the hypothesis? Do bricks get hosed? Do you allow these powers in ECs as a house rule?

 

Dude, Bricks are so far ahead of the game already that not being able to squeeze more using an EC is way to small an issue to moan over...(IMHO)

[Remjin]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

As in all things Hero, it depends on the build and the results wanted. I'm not one to bugger with rules too much, and in the rare instance its needed, I just do it.

 

Having played a few bricks in my time... in 4th edition we came across situations in which we used ECs with bricks, and some of it was just ridiculous and thus were removed or taken out for the sake of balanced play. We made a house rule about frameworks to compensate fir some of the crazy stuff we were trying at the time. We were a little munchkinnish but only if we were all equally so. Fair play resumed.

 

I came back for fifth edition, layed a brick, and found that it worked fine. In fact, using the armor/damage resistance combo, I was ridiculously unhurtable but stunnable due to low brick Con (on purpose). Honestly, with the damage caps, the armor did most if it, with DR only assisting somewhat. It was fine.

 

Bricks are fine. For the main powers anyway. Use the EC for some of the rest.

 

I concur with many here and for similar reasons. But, if I may, do as you see fit for your games as everyone else here does. Its only an issue when you play characters from your game in another.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Bricks are OK. But they've seen better days.

 

4th ed and before, bricks were the gold standard for damage production because of the +50% haymaker (and kick)

 

That meant that any brick with more than 40 STR was getting a better deal than the 5th ed. haymaker.

 

Also it meant that EBs and mentallists weren't getting any haymaker options.

 

Now, with the nerfed, er revised haymaker and it applying to any damage power, the brick has lost a lot of top-end potential.

 

Also, the multi-power attack (optional) has improved the lot of nearly all martial artists, many blasters and very few bricks.

 

The ruling that dive for cover can apply to non-area effect attacks has a very pernicious effect on bricks. Since bricks are typically the lowest spd combatants, any 1v1 opponent with a higher spd can simply dfc from every brick attack and use the extra actions to damage the brick.

 

In general, bricks are still viable, but not as good as their 4th edition versions.

 

$0.02

[Comic]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Enh. Looking over what can be done for 250 pts with STR, DEX, CON and an EC that still can be considered a playable whole character, (posted in another thread) I'd have to say there's nothing hosed about them.

 

Bricks after all have high CON and low SPD, therefore a lot more END to spend on all those EC powers.

 

Which is not to say they're unbalanced. In a 350 pt game, it's nice to have 100 pts to spend that can be entirely unrelated to combat ability, and not have to think because the Brick part is already all built.

[Mentor]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Out of curiosity, could you define or give an example of an "improvised AOE attack" which wouldn't require a point-purchased brick trick power?

 

 

 

This was, I assumed, the reason behind the current rules regarding zero-END powers in frameworks.

 

Our team Bricks use improvised AE attacks with regularity. Dropping a cement wall on a baddie, using a billboard or base's armored door as a flyswatter is not too tough when you only need to target a hex's DCV as opposed to the evil speedster.

 

STR has its own built in advantages which neither EBs, TK, or MA can match despite having some of the same or comparable characteristics. Bricks don't get hosed at all IMHO. The Hero system is one giant rock/paper/scissors exercise with every CHA and ability having a counter. I am quite happy with the balance of capabilities, thank you very much.

[Mentor]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Totally disagree. Bricks are one of the most' date=' if not the most, efficient and survivable archetypes.[/quote']

 

I heartly agree. Simple effective Bricks can be built cheap with the remaining points buying a lot of candy or versatility.

[Markdoc]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I heartly agree. Simple effective Bricks can be built cheap with the remaining points buying a lot of candy or versatility.

 

Agree. Bricks overall do pretty well, and damn near the nastiest thing in the entire game is a "quick brick" (the Wonder Woman, Superman, Captain Marvel et al. archetype).

 

Even before this ruling, I was pretty leery of allowing 0 END powers into frameworks (to be specific, in ECs), simply because it gives you a big price break without the mitigation of having to choose among the powers that a MP or VPP inflicts: you get to run the whole thing at once. As a GM, I'm very hard on ECs for that reason - I'd never allow for example, "Brick powers" as an EC, or "magic powers" - I insist on a tighter definition. I'd be OK with (for example) "Werewolf powers" because there's a general gamer consensus on what those are, and you either take the package or nothing.

 

cheers, Mark

[Doc Samson]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

IME a balanced "plain vanilla" brick is one of the most effective character types for their points. There are so many useful things that a high-STR character can do without more elaborate Power builds (Grabbing, Throwing, Leaping, improvised AOE attacks, lifting/pulling things) that other character types often need Frameworks just to keep up.

 

So no, I don't believe this ruling hoses bricks. If anything it helps balance them with other characters.

 

Lets make a list of STR-related tricks and tactics. Lord Liaden has layed the brickwork...pun intended.

 

1) Grabs (pg. 388), as an option, if a Grabbers has 20 STR or more that the Grabee (common situation for a brick), then the standard Gran penalties are greatly lessened.

 

2) Throwing/ Leaping - As per the STR and Throwing charts (pg. 34-35), bricks start off with a decent base movement and ranged attack (potentially based on the environment).

 

3) Improvised AE attacks - Though 5ER does not have the example of this previously described in 4E, there are still rules available. Using Objects As Weapons (pg. 447) describes how much damage they cause. It is up to the GM to say exactly how big something is in game terms (and of coarse what items are available).

 

4) Lifting/ Pulling things - Casual STR (pg.34) can allow a brick to do things for free that cost other characters actions.

 

5) Reducing Falling damage - That extra leaping is good for more than just cheerleading (pg. 435).

 

6) Resisting Knockback (pg. 421) - Non-bricks without Knockback Resistance or Flight (or Breakfall) are gonna spend alot of partial actions getting up off the floor, not to mention the possibility of suffering extra damage from crashing into something.

 

7) Move-Bys and Move Throughs (pg.384) - STR is the base damage for these types of attack (modified by velocity), so they are usually only an option for bricks and speedsters.

 

8) Disarm and Grab-By (pg. 384) - Good luck getting your Focus back after it's been grabbed by a brick (unless you are a Martial Artist with levels in Martial Disarm).

 

Please feel free to add your own. I'll think of more when I have time.

[Comic]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

9.) Hunkering down - High recovery + high defenses means if you can manage to take a recovery while your opponent plinks, you're as fresh as when the fight started. A particularly good thing to do if you've just knocked your HTH enemy flat on his back more than a half move away.

 

10.) Improvised stretching - if you can't find a wide improvised weapon, find a long one.

 

11.) Improvised NND/Darkness AoE - Grab a breath and raise some dust by destroying something.. er.. dustable. By the time the cloud has cleared, the higher SPD characters in the area have been choking and using END and missing Recoveries at a higher rate. If the dust also obscures vision, and you're still holding that improvised AoE.. so much the better against Dive-for-Cover experts.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

 

The ruling that dive for cover can apply to non-area effect attacks has a very pernicious effect on bricks. Since bricks are typically the lowest spd combatants, any 1v1 opponent with a higher spd can simply dfc from every brick attack and use the extra actions to damage the brick.

 

IMO, since most bricks tend to be expert fighters, they shouldn't be the lowest Speed characters. Strong=fast. If you don't believe me stand across from an offensive lineman, a 300+ pound guy with a lot of extra fat to go with his huge muscles.

 

Say 'Hike'.

 

You will be flat on your back before you see him move.

 

Being strong doesn't make you think slower (some peoples justification for high speed). Being strong doesn't make you slow. Yes, being musclebound means you're not very agile, but that is basically a Dex thing, not a Speed thing. I think most bricks should have even less Dex and more Speed.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

9.) Hunkering down - High recovery + high defenses means if you can manage to take a recovery while your opponent plinks, you're as fresh as when the fight started. A particularly good thing to do if you've just knocked your HTH enemy flat on his back more than a half move away.

 

10.) Improvised stretching - if you can't find a wide improvised weapon, find a long one.

 

11.) Improvised NND/Darkness AoE - Grab a breath and raise some dust by destroying something.. er.. dustable. By the time the cloud has cleared, the higher SPD characters in the area have been choking and using END and missing Recoveries at a higher rate. If the dust also obscures vision, and you're still holding that improvised AoE.. so much the better against Dive-for-Cover experts.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of high STR related rules bonuses that don't necessarily require too much handwaving by the GM.

#9 is cool but even though REC and PD are related to STR, it could theoretically apply to any AT.

#10 is exactly the kind of stuff I was thinking of. It should be an easy ruling to estimate the length of a telephone pole, for instance, and it's DEF and BODY are listed in the book.

#11 isn't really STR related as it could be done with many types of attacks, and would require alot of handwaving on the part of the GM.

 

Great ideas. Anyone have any others?

[starblaze]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Out of curiosity, could you define or give an example of an "improvised AOE attack" which wouldn't require a point-purchased brick trick power?

 

 

 

This was, I assumed, the reason behind the current rules regarding zero-END powers in frameworks.

 

Brick with sufficent strength picks up really big car, truck, fighter jet, tank, what have you and throws it. Improvised AOE attack, ranged!

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

IMO, since most bricks tend to be expert fighters, they shouldn't be the lowest Speed characters. Strong=fast. If you don't believe me stand across from an offensive lineman, a 300+ pound guy with a lot of extra fat to go with his huge muscles.

 

Say 'Hike'.

 

You will be flat on your back before you see him move.

 

Being strong doesn't make you think slower (some peoples justification for high speed). Being strong doesn't make you slow. Yes, being musclebound means you're not very agile, but that is basically a Dex thing, not a Speed thing. I think most bricks should have even less Dex and more Speed.

 

Brick =/= offensive lineman.

 

Look at any group in the CU. If a character has the highest str, then it's a good bet that they also have the lowest dex/spd.

 

in the CKC, there are 10 villains with spd 4. Their average str is 42.3.

Remove the 4 mentalists from that list and the average STR for SPD 4 villains is 62.5.

 

Bricks are slow.