Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

[Remjin]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

IMO, since most bricks tend to be expert fighters, they shouldn't be the lowest Speed characters. Strong=fast. If you don't believe me stand across from an offensive lineman, a 300+ pound guy with a lot of extra fat to go with his huge muscles.

 

Say 'Hike'.

 

You will be flat on your back before you see him move.

 

Being strong doesn't make you think slower (some peoples justification for high speed). Being strong doesn't make you slow. Yes, being musclebound means you're not very agile, but that is basically a Dex thing, not a Speed thing. I think most bricks should have even less Dex and more Speed.

 

Actually, they're explosive like that because they train to be. Ask that same offensive linemen to sprint across the field. Not so fast. Being explosive and being fast or separate.

 

To be more technical on this, muscles come (very generally now) in two shades: fast twitch and slow twitch. They're somewhat interchangeable depending on how utilized. Properly built, muscles contain a large mass of both, as they are meant to be used in different portions of each movement and for types of movement. Its not as cut and dry as all that, but there are a lot of strong guys who are slow because.. well, they're slow. And a lot of strong guys that are fast, because they are. Its a matter of too many aspects of physiology to relate to any one single trait.

 

In the other aspect, weak people can be fast. Perhaps the impact of a thing isn't much since he doesn't have much power, but he can be fast. I don't want to have this break down into a physiological discussion, especially since whatever knowledge I have is limited at best, but I say this from doing a lot of physical training and research on the subject for the limited area in which I was interested.

 

Going back to the discussion, however... (wouldn't want to go too far off-topic)

 

• Can buy offensive combat levels only, cuz he can take it.
  
• Doesn't cry when he gets a tattoo, assuming the needle can penetrate his skin.
  
• Chicks dig 'em
  
• Being able to make balloon animals with street lights makes him popular with children.
  
• Stealth "YOU DON'T SEE ME!" "*pee* I don't see you."
  

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Also, sumo wrestlers have a very explosive burst of energy at the beginning of their matches.

 

This does not mean that I would be tempted to give them very high SPD scores, though.

 

Both sumo wrestlers and offensive linemen get the benefit of waiting for a few seconds before they actually do anything, so they almost always have held actions. Which goes a long way towards explaining that burst of activity.

 

Also, there is the oft-quoted line about "the game slowing down" for players that have developed a familiarity with their offensive scheme, the game, their teammates.

 

I can see many sports or real-time activities having experts that would be well modeled by adding a point or two of SPD only useable while playing football, sumo wrestling, playing Halo II and so on...

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Actually, when you consider damage classes, it almost evens out the extra points needed for the defenses a brick takes.

 

45 STR = 35 points (9 DC Attack)

 

45 Brick Attacks MP (45 points)

3d6 HKA (4m - 18 DC Attack)

9d6 HtH (4m - 18 DC Attack)

 

Compared to, say, an energy blaster who needs to drop 90 points to get an 18 DC attack of some kind.

[Force]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Just about the most efficient construct in 5th edition is a brick with a EC and base martial arts' date=' if built straight without limitations.[/quote']

 

QFT.

 

I have one that is pretty efficient. Small EC. A few martial arts maneuvers. Mostly a combat monster. Pretty damn fearsome. Not invincible, but damn tough.

 

He even uses a defensive multipower to optimize his defenses.

 

He came from a unique campaign that required that kind of build.

[Vestnik]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Has anybody ever considered just getting rid of Elemental Controls and replacing them with a Limitation -1/2 (or so) "Drained Along with Other Set of Powers"? I'm not sure I like the notion of ECs now that I think of it.

[CourtFool]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I believe it has been suggested that all Power Frameworks be replaced with Limitations. I like the concept. Fewer rules. I do not have the threads off hand.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Has anybody ever considered just getting rid of Elemental Controls and replacing them with a Limitation -1/2 (or so) "Drained Along with Other Set of Powers"? I'm not sure I like the notion of ECs now that I think of it.

 

I agree that EC's can be abused like everything else in HERO but that's nothing new.

 

I have used the following Limitation on Multipowers where it did not make sense that 1 slot could be drained without affecting others:

 

All slots Limited Power (Affected by adjustment powers like an Elemental Control ; -1/4)

[archermoo]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Brick =/= offensive lineman.

 

Look at any group in the CU. If a character has the highest str, then it's a good bet that they also have the lowest dex/spd.

 

in the CKC, there are 10 villains with spd 4. Their average str is 42.3.

Remove the 4 mentalists from that list and the average STR for SPD 4 villains is 62.5.

 

Bricks are slow.

 

Minor quibble. That shows that the brick ideas Steve had for CKC were for slow bricks. Not necessarily that the only valid brick builds in the CU are bricks. And even if it did mean that, that by no means is an indicator that bricks even outside of the CU should all be slow.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Quibble all you want.

 

A Brick is an artificial construct. It only exists by popular acclaim. To that extent, it has accumulated a number of identifying characteristics which allow people to classify writeups as bricks or not bricks.

 

One of those identifying characteristics is being (relatively) slow.

 

It's been that way since 1st ed.

 

I always prefer discussing published characters because it is a reasonable assumption that everyone has access to them. It's a rather different thing to discuss ones own campaign because nobody else knows the details. Also, the published characters influence a large percentage of the user base. A house rule or individual campaign influences a tiny handful.

[archermoo]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Quibble all you want.

 

A Brick is an artificial construct. It only exists by popular acclaim. To that extent, it has accumulated a number of identifying characteristics which allow people to classify writeups as bricks or not bricks.

 

One of those identifying characteristics is being (relatively) slow.

 

It's been that way since 1st ed.

 

I always prefer discussing published characters because it is a reasonable assumption that everyone has access to them. It's a rather different thing to discuss ones own campaign because nobody else knows the details. Also, the published characters influence a large percentage of the user base. A house rule or individual campaign influences a tiny handful.

 

And to me Strong and Tough are the most important characteristics of a Brick.

 

But then again, I've never really much cared for the standard archtypes anyway.

[GamePhil]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I believe it has been suggested that all Power Frameworks be replaced with Limitations. I like the concept. Fewer rules. I do not have the threads off hand.

 

I don't care for the idea of getting rid of Multipowers or Variable Pools, myself. To do so would require significant restructuring to be able to make characters as potentially flexible as they are currently, even with large Limitation values for them. In a game system where skunk musk costs as much as it does, something like Multipowers are a must.

 

Elemental Controls, on the other hand, would be pretty easy to get rid of and replace with Limitations, if it was desired. I'm too used to EC's to bother with it, personally, but if 6th Edition came out and did away with them I wouldn't balk at using the new rules.

[Force]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Quibble all you want.

 

A Brick is an artificial construct. It only exists by popular acclaim. To that extent, it has accumulated a number of identifying characteristics which allow people to classify writeups as bricks or not bricks.

 

One of those identifying characteristics is being (relatively) slow.

 

It's been that way since 1st ed.

 

I always prefer discussing published characters because it is a reasonable assumption that everyone has access to them. It's a rather different thing to discuss ones own campaign because nobody else knows the details. Also, the published characters influence a large percentage of the user base. A house rule or individual campaign influences a tiny handful.

 

So are you saying that if you build a 6+ speed 'brick', it's not a 'brick' but a 'martial artist'? Even if that said 'brick' has no 'martial arts'?

 

Sounds like you are trying to make the defining characteristic of a brick it's speed stat.

 

No flame. Genuine curiosity.

[GamePhil]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I tend to disagree, as bricks have a fine replacement to EC's in having high Characteristics. They also have none of the drawbacks to the 5th Ed's EC rules.

 

Yeah, I know it's been said, but it's like a poll.

[tesuji]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Hypothesis: the rules invalidating powers that don't cost END from being placed in a framework, specifically an elemental control, hose the average brick. Most plain-vanilla archetypes can arrange an EC for their mainstay powers, but with the exception of STR, a brick's mainstay (mainly defensive) powers like increased PD or ED, armor, damage resistance/reduction, increased CON or BODY, etc., aren't allowed in an elemental control. This makes bricks more expensive to build in general than other archetypes.

 

Would you agree or disagree with the hypothesis? Do bricks get hosed? Do you allow these powers in ECs as a house rule?

 

I would strongly disagree. based on my experience, a competitive brick is one of the easier builds compared to the other archtypes. the equally competitive blaster tends, with ECs and MP, to still have fewer "left over points" after covering the combat basics as the brick.

 

IMo the EC style savings work somewhat to offset the brick's incredible gain from figured characteristics.

 

i think a better way of handling brick tricks is needed but the general costing as it applies now seems to work.

[Thrakazog]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

So are you saying that if you build a 6+ speed 'brick', it's not a 'brick' but a 'martial artist'? Even if that said 'brick' has no 'martial arts'?

 

Sounds like you are trying to make the defining characteristic of a brick it's speed stat.

 

No flame. Genuine curiosity.

 

 

I refer to a PC with STR around 35-50 and SPD of 5 or higher as a martial brick. STR isn't his main schtick, nor are martial arts (although he probably has a few maneuvers), but he's a well-rounded tough HTH combatant.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

So are you saying that if you build a 6+ speed 'brick', it's not a 'brick' but a 'martial artist'? Even if that said 'brick' has no 'martial arts'?

 

Sounds like you are trying to make the defining characteristic of a brick it's speed stat.

 

No flame. Genuine curiosity.

 

Most people I know would call such a character a "quick brick".

 

The addition of any descriptor to "brick" is indication that some non-cannon element has been added. e.g. flying brick, quick brick, etc.

 

It's not that I am trying to make the defining characteristic of a brick it's speed stat. Hero Games did that. Decades ago.

 

The bit about bricks being slow is not interpretation, it's observation. From Enemies II, the Destroyers, Geodesics, Eurostar and Terror Inc. each has one member with the highest str. Do you know what each one's spd is? 4. Is there any member of any of these groups without the highest str that also has a spd 4? nope. Solo bricks Bulldozer and Grond also have a speed of, you guessed it, 4.

 

It's a 25 year old product, but it establishes that the standard SPD for bricks is 4. It also establishes that the standard SPD for every other character type is higher than 4.

 

It's not what I am interpeting, it's what Hero Games published.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

The addition of any descriptor to "brick" is indication that some non-cannon element has been added. e.g. flying brick, quick brick, etc.

 

Too add another descriptor - a flying brick that isn't bulky (i.e. Rogue or Superman rather than Hulk or the Thing) usually faster than the bulky bricks is referred in our group as a "sport model brick".

[tesuji]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

FWIW which isn't much at all... in our group the primary defining characteristics of "brick" are HIGH STRENGTH and tough, noting the tough in lower caps as a secondary trait, one often arrived at in anynumber of ways from HIGH ARMOR to even softer defenses but tons of stun.

 

About the next best quality was "lack of other primary attacks, so strength and strength tricks were the mainstay". There were exceptions, often extremely limited uses and so forth.

 

The speed varied, from low to campaign average, but was rarely high.

The Cv/Dex varied from low to campaign average but was rarely on the higher end except for just "on offense" or "with punch" and the like.

The movement varied all over the place, but was never allowed to become an offensive thing, or if it was strength was restricted.

[archermoo]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I've always thought of bricks as being primarily tough, while generally also being strong. Tough could be high defenses, high STUN, high CON, etc. Generally a combination of the above.

 

But I've also never really paid attention to the official CU stuff. Heck, before the current edition of the rules I generally never bought anything other than the core rules.

[Comic]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

My experience is that the term 'Brick Lite' covers cases where the Brick's STR and CON in proportion to Dex/SPD is 'low'. A 60 Str, 14 DEX, 4 SPD character is a Brick where there is a damage cap of 12 DCs. Either a 45 Str, 23 Dex, 5 SPD in the same campaign or a 60 Str, 35 DEX, 8 SPD character in a 20 DCs cap campaign would be a Brick Lite, from what I've seen.

 

Some of the features I find mostly Brickish are:

 

1. More points spent on STR, CON, BODY, DEF, REC and STUN than the rest of the character, by a wide margin.

 

2. STR provides the main attack for the character, by at least 4 DCs.

 

3. The Max Stun from the character's KAs (if any) is below the average Stun from their primary normal physical attack.

 

4. This is the character on the team who everyone expects to be targetted most often and earliest by opponents based on positioning, conduct, personality, tactics and reputation. (Unless the mentalist is visible.)

 

5. The Brick has a 'superattack' that spikes higher than his usual damage, but in a limited way (usually higher END cost).

 

6. The Brick is not a trapeze artist. No (or low) acrobatics, breakfall, reduced turn modes combined with high combat speed.

 

7. The Brick has some 'sprint' or 'charge' ability higher than their usual combat movement. (Typically leaping).

 

8. The Brick has advantages useful in HTH (e.g. reach, HTH levels, ability to take opponents off their feet, extra Grab, reduced KB).

 

9. The Brick likes it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Most people I know would call such a character a "quick brick".

 

The addition of any descriptor to "brick" is indication that some non-cannon element has been added. e.g. flying brick, quick brick, etc.

 

It's not that I am trying to make the defining characteristic of a brick it's speed stat. Hero Games did that. Decades ago.

 

The bit about bricks being slow is not interpretation, it's observation. From Enemies II, the Destroyers, Geodesics, Eurostar and Terror Inc. each has one member with the highest str. Do you know what each one's spd is? 4. Is there any member of any of these groups without the highest str that also has a spd 4? nope. Solo bricks Bulldozer and Grond also have a speed of, you guessed it, 4.

 

It's a 25 year old product, but it establishes that the standard SPD for bricks is 4. It also establishes that the standard SPD for every other character type is higher than 4.

 

It's not what I am interpreting, it's what Hero Games published.

Yep. And it tallies pretty well with my experience with home grown bricks as well over the past 25 years. "True" bricks seem to gravitate to SPD 4. Lighter bricks (what we call demibricks in our gaming circle) are generally slightly faster (SPD 5 being the most common), but also have attacks, defenses, CON and STUN at least 10 character points below the true brick's.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Personally, whenever I set out to build a brick, I get to about 250 points and I've finished, and I have to scratch around for stuff to soak up that extra 100 with.

 

So, no, I'm not thinking bricks are hosed.

 

Mind you, I've seen some stuff done with layered and banked frameworks that seem, to my simple mind, ridiculously abusive, even if they are technically legitimate.

 

Against one of those constructs, your average brick, of whatever flavour, is in for a dousing.

 

The issue seems to me to be less about whether the rules are 'fair' to a particular concept, and more about the reason behind having the rule against non-END using powers in ECs in the first place.

 

The rule does not bother me, but it would be nice to know why it is there.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

The issue seems to me to be less about whether the rules are 'fair' to a particular concept, and more about the reason behind having the rule against non-END using powers in ECs in the first place.

 

The rule does not bother me, but it would be nice to know why it is there.

 

As someone who thoroughly abused a GM who also didn't see the reason for this rule and so allowed non End using powers in EC's I would just like to say 'Damage Reduction'.

 

Also, Enhanced Senses. Find Weakness. Characteristics bought as Powers.

 

I felt so guilty about the 10 point Alien Physiology EC with +20 Int, +10 Con, etc. that I only played the guy for a year.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

As someone who thoroughly abused a GM who also didn't see the reason for this rule and so allowed non End using powers in EC's I would just like to say 'Damage Reduction'.

 

Also, Enhanced Senses. Find Weakness. Characteristics bought as Powers.

 

I felt so guilty about the 10 point Alien Physiology EC with +20 Int, +10 Con, etc. that I only played the guy for a year.

 

You see I'd agree that you can abuse frameworks, but I'm not inclined to legislate against such abuse because it removes some pretty good concepts, at least potentially.

 

That's not to say that I think that frameworks should be abused, I just don't like the arbitrariness of the rules purporting to limit them.

 

Which is odd, really, given that, by and large, I feel that frameworks are routinely abused by the uses they are put to.

 

I mean, do you know any blasters who have an NND that ISN'T in a multipower with a normal and/or killing attack?

 

There don't seem to be many characters of any tripe who don't have some sort of framework in the build.

 

I don't like it.

 

Different types of bullet, within limits, I'll give you that.

 

Powers arising from a single sfx (I'm made of rubber!), OK, maybe, but you can make a pseudo EC with linked powers anyway (and there are no restrictions on what you can link).

 

No, I'm not keen on frameworks being so ubiquitous, but if you are going to have them, I frankly couldn't care less what is in there so long as:

 

1. it makes sense in terms of the build of the character and the concept

2. it is not abusive, by which I mean it doesn't spoil the enjoyment of the other participants, and

3. I like frameworks to have a common sfx, or root. A single thing you can drain or take away that removes the sutility of the entire framework. That's just me though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

As someone who thoroughly abused a GM who also didn't see the reason for this rule and so allowed non End using powers in EC's I would just like to say 'Damage Reduction'.

 

Also, Enhanced Senses. Find Weakness. Characteristics bought as Powers.

 

I felt so guilty about the 10 point Alien Physiology EC with +20 Int, +10 Con, etc. that I only played the guy for a year.

 

First off, I would veto the "alien physiology EC" based on the discussion of racial EC's.

 

Second, I challenge anyone to explain why an EC should:

 

- be unable to include Aid that costs no END, but should be able to include Healing that costs no END.

 

- be unable to include Armor that costs no END, but should be able to include a Force Field that costs no END.

 

Help me understand why one is less subject to abuse than the other.