L.Craig Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 I wasnt going to say anything, but i have to, can someone explain to me why Hero cant have better art for there Champions books. The artwork in VVV sucks. I cant draw myself, but still why cant we have better. Even if it raises the cost of the book a bit I dont care. My one buddy whos new to Hero couldnt believe how bad the artwork is. I know M&M has bigger budgets, but if the Champions art is half as good as that we would still be better off. Why isnt storn doing more of the art. Anyways thats my rant, I spend a lot of money on this game, and I want to see better art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Personally, I don't own VVV, but I have to say that art is subjective. "Sucks" is relative to the person viewing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
input.jack Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Im an artist. They havent hired me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Have you submitted a portfolio in triplicate to all parties involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaras Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts ....Storn? Unless ive simply missed out on his contributions, or he is too expensive for Herogames, i dont quite see how someone whos artwork is so prominent on the forums hasnt been headhunted as quite frankly artwork in Champions (and a lot of the hero range) seems to me to be rather poor fare. Herosystem products have a great rules system, now they should re-asess thier presentation... Just a thought, but one shared by a fair few i expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I don't buy gaming books for artwork. I buy gaming books for gaming information. If I want artwork I'll buy an artbook. (Just weighing in the other side of that coin....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaras Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts ^ By that measure what youre saying is that you dont really care either way what the artworks like if the rules system is good, then what about the pretty pictures contributing to the setting of a particular book? A description of appearance is one thing, nice artwork quite another. As a Gm its also nice to be able to show the players an eye catching little number. Now that iam thinking about it Storn has done stuff for Herogames in the past, oops . Ah well, it would still be nice to see more of his stuff there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I don't buy gaming books for artwork. I buy gaming books for gaming information. If I want artwork I'll buy an artbook. I buy both gaming book and artbooks. I don't buy rules books solely for the art. And I certainly don't buy artbooks for the rules (well, maybe the "how to draw..." ones ). However, bad art in a gaming book today basically says "sloppy presentation" to me. To someone not committed to a purchase, it is definately off-putting. Heck, I picked up a copy of Tuala Morn - a book I had really been looking forward to for some time - cracked it open and damn near put it back on the shelf. The artwork reaches standards for craptitude that haven't been equalled in the industry for decades. I understand Herogames had some problems with art and non-delivery of same for that book, but I really think it's a case where maybe a released delay was in order to fix it. I bought the book anyway, since I'm a diehard fanboy and am overall pretty happy with it. But if I hadn't been a fanboy, I would almost certainly not have bought it. cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAVeira Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I don't buy gaming books for artwork. I buy gaming books for gaming information. If I want artwork I'll buy an artbook. That was my opinion originally as well. However, the artwork in a number of HERO books recently has been so terrible that I am finding it to be distracting. Frankly, greatly deal of the new artwork looks very unproffessional, as if a child not an artist had done it. I would suggest that HERO just not have artwork is all they can afford is that rotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I don't buy gaming books for artwork. I buy gaming books for gaming information. If I want artwork I'll buy an artbook. However' date=' bad art in a gaming book today basically says "sloppy presentation" to me. To someone not committed to a purchase, it is [b']definately[/b] off-putting. I think these two sum it up for me. I'm buying the book for content, not the artwork. I'd rather see more content and less art, and I'm not all that concerned about how good the art is. But I'm already sold on buying the book. Hero doesn't need the art to sell me on the product. They do need the art to sell someone browsing, and choosing between alternative systems, or alternative supplements, on the product. Finally, if they're going to use space on art, the value is only there if the artwork is decent. NOTE: I haven't dug through VVV, so I'm not commenting on that art in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I'm the first to admit that I'm not all that familiar with the artwork in the new books. I don't own any of the 5th Edition stuff except FREd, and I've only seen the supplements at Lord Mhoram's house. Still, I can't help but think that the artwork was better in the 4th Ed. books (many of which I do still own). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemurion Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I just looked through VVV recently, and some of the art really is bad. It's the kind of art I remember seeing in some of the fly-by night games from the eighties. I'm another who doesn't need really good art to sell me on a book. I like having character art to show to the players, but I don't know that it's necessary. This topic comes up pretty often, and I know B&W illustrations don't have the grab factor of color, but I think something needs to be done. A lot of the art in VVV was bad enough to actively turn people off; and that's where the problem comes in. We don't need products with great art but no art is much better than art that actively turns people off. I don't know if VVV suffered from special circumstances, but it is something that needs to be looked at. I'm going to vote for less art in future products rather than the really bad art that shows up in some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Also, the OP was referring to Champions books in particular. As others have pointed out in the past, the source material for the supers genre is very visual - that's a huge part of its appeal. Many people thinking of investing in a supers RPG will look for imagery that conveys that kind of dynamism, especially when it comes time to show a character to players at the gaming table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I don't know if VVV suffered from special circumstances' date=' but it is something that needs to be looked at. I'm going to vote for less art in future products rather than the really bad art that shows up in some of them.[/quote'] It would be comforting if complaints like this about Fifth Edition books were a new or anomalous occurence, but unfortunately I've been hearing them for years. What concerns me more is that I hear it from non-HERO gamers too; the company has developed a "good content/bad art" reputation that seems to turn off prospective buyers. As Markdoc pointed out above, the visuals of a game book convey an impression about the overall quality of its production, rightly or wrongly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen_hydra Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts While it may seem superficial, I have to admit that art does have a bearing in whether I buy a product, or not. Champions is a comic book themed RPG. Comics are a largely visual medium. In my opinion, the art is just as important a part of character concept as the game stats are. I can go out and find a picture somewhere else to represent a character with bad book art, but it will never perfectly fit the original character concept. Also, I don't think that I should have to buy a book, and then jump through hoops to find an appropriate image for all of the characters in that book. I am more than willing to pay more for a book that has good quality art. As it currently stands, I still feel burned by Predators (for DC). As much as I have been tempted, I have stayed away from buying any new Hero Games products solely because of the terrible art. I may be in the minority, but art very much matters to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaras Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Okay, just to establish the context of what ive said and am going to say- i love herosystem/champions, there is no roleplaying rules system i would rather use for any setting i could imagine. Its been touched on that for those who dont know the Herosystem/Champions well that sloppy art and presentation might well put off prospective first time buyers. Its certainly a problem ive noticed in trying to interest gamers at the younger end of the age bracket in herosystem products, though by no means exclusive to the younglings (say 12 to 15). For them, and i dont think this observation is exclusive to those i know, artwork and presentation is more important than it necesarily might be to older roleplayers that know a few systems- herosystem in general probably caters better to people who are established roleplayers (An opinion!) with its stat heavy system. Netherless i cant help feeling Herogames are missing out on something here, i hope someone takes note of whats being discussed...perhaps something for someone to bring up with S.Long? There are a lot of great products out there and iam happy to say i count herosystem as one of them, i hope it stays one of them:thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroGM Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I made a comment about artwork on my livejournal and Storn responded about it. Storn isn't doing art for Hero currently and there's a reason for it, which from his p.o.v. is perfectly reasonable. I agree with the initial statement though, to me the art has deteriorated, especially when you put it side by side to Mutants & Masterminds is coming out with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaras Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I. Storn isn't doing art for Hero currently and there's a reason for it, which from his p.o.v. is perfectly reasonable. 'cause he is a M&M fan? Meh, i guess ill just have to commision him at some point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Netherless i cant help feeling Herogames are missing out on something here' date=' i hope someone takes note of whats being discussed...perhaps something for someone to bring up with S.Long? There are a lot of great products out there and iam happy to say i count herosystem as one of them, i hope it stays one of them:thumbup:[/quote'] Hero Games understands what type of books they're putting out. No one at Hero is stupid or can't see what the books look like. Storn, Chris, and the rest of the earlier artists probably aren't coming back due to payment issues. It's as simple as that. More importantly I think Hero Games has given up trying to attract new gamers. I think they've decided that catering to their core fan base is all they're going to worry about now [at least until the core starts to radically dwindle too]. As long as the core fans keep buying there's no incentive for Hero to try and find better artists. What you see now is as good as it gets. At least they're back to occasionally putting a real cover on the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Im an artist. They havent hired me. Well, start sending them your portfolio, man! What are you waiting for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plex Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts This has been an ongoing debate about the books since Hero first came out. I can remember way back, I'll even get into the machine, when people used to complain about Mark "the hack" Williams artwork in the books. (I'm not speaking poorly of the dead, just stating a fact.) I agree ghost angel on this one. I can't even draw stick figures well, so anything is an improvement on what I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAVeira Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Well, these days I am purchasing more M&M products then HERO. Now, I am not playing an M&M game, but I am using the Freedom City setting. The presentation value for the M&M books is general outstanding and I fail to understand why HERO cannot do the same for the Champions line. Then again, the use of the one standard Champions universe is silly. It stopped or delayed a number great projects such as a Protectors sourcebook, Scott Bennie's Gestalt and Aaron Allston's Stike Force. The current Champions universe just does not strike me as a comic book reality and the artwork really stops me even more so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Maybe we should all Commission Storn individually for Art in the next book. We each get an honorarium (Courtesy of TheQuestionMan). The Art Department still dictates, but we get good art. I would be willing to help defray the costs that way. QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts As long as the core fans keep buying there's no incentive for Hero to try and find better artists. What you see now is as good as it gets. I can see that. I've never been all that concerned about art in game books, and I prefer B&W to color - I thought the art in the Creature Collections were much better than anything in the Monster Manuals for example*. Would I like to see art better than VVV in my HERO books? Sure. But if doing so means dropping books from the line up, or upping the price, then I'll accept the lower caliber art. I bought all of the M&M books up to Agents of Freedom, but my gaming budget has shrunk, and I have to choose between full color books for a game I don't play, or the B&W, somewhat worse art for a game that I play, I choose the game I play. But my reasons for liking the M&M stuff was also content not art. I really disliked that art in a number of M&M books. *I've actually not liked much art for any of the D&D 3rd stuff, but that is more a stylistic choice that quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Maybe we should all Commission Storn individually for Art in the next book. We each get an honorarium (Courtesy of TheQuestionMan). The Art Department still dictates, but we get good art. I would be willing to help defray the costs that way. QM Actually Storn states on his webpage, that if the art for a commision is for a book, that whoever does it has to pay normal rates for his artwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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