Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

[Remjin]

So, I love light-sabers, and the whole crazy light-saber thing is cool... but a better setting would be nice. I like the films, even some of the books, but they don't really do it for me.

 

Could we concoct another set of genre tropes to make this a viable portion of a gaming universe? Ideas welcome, of course, go nuts.

 

I kind of like the idea of a universe with an equivalent of Knights, but hardly stuck to it, with some semi-logical reason for their use (outside of pure COOL) would be nice as well. Y'know.. the Jedi have uber-powers to let them make blasters silly for them somewhat, it cuts stuff well, and makes a handy, slightly dangerous night light... but what else? Besides instant toast if used for bread slicing...

[tkdguy]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

Years ago, I imagined a science fantasy world where knights battle it out with light sabers and ride robotic horses. The knights don't have Jedi powers. They are highly trained warriors, but they are still ordinary humans.

 

In this world, archers would use bows like Hank the Ranger's bow (from the D&D cartoon) or crossbows like Chewbacca's bowcaster. Other melee weapons would exist with sci-fi trappings, of course, such as vibro axes or sonic maces. I guess unarmed martial artists would have gloves and boots that would allow them to punch and kick holes in buildings (or bad guys).

 

Of course, this qualifies more as fantasy. But I remember a thread last year (?) about using wizards in a sci-fi world.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

We're using them in a sort of mashed together Terran Empire/Star Frontiers setting.

 

Just getting into them being introduced. But Star Wars this setting isn't. Thankfully.

[OddHat]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

I always liked the Space Opera explanation that Lightsabers / Energy Swords make better weapons on a ship and in an artificial habitat, as well as being useful for cops and as weapons of honor in a culture with a strong dueling tradition.

 

The interior of a space ship or artificial habitat is full of delicate equipment and other people; you don't want a missed shot blowing up something irreplaceable or ricocheting around. Combat is also usually close, and a quick, well trained man can often be on you well before you have time to aim and fire a pistol; in those circumstances, you want something that doesn't require careful aim, especially if you want to avoid accidentally shooting a friend or non-combatant.

 

Which brings us to cops. Sure, a cop will carry a blaster, but opening fire in a crowd is almost never a good thing (hitting citizens means lawsuits and paperwork). Besides, a bullet or blast that can get through armor will kill an unarmored man or tear through most walls, making the risk of unintended consequences considerable. An energy sword is precise, can be turned down for crowd control to just shock the target, or turned up enough to chop thorough the heaviest civilian grade armor (or even military grade, if you get the right permits).

 

When it comes to duels, gentlemen use energy swords. Easier to display your skill, much easier to avoid killing your opponent before he has a chance to honorably surrender, almost no chance of looking like an idiot by accidentally killing a spectator. Besides, you just look cooler posing with a sword than with a pistol, and coolness counts.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

If I recall correctly, David Drake wrote a number of books that he based on Norse mythology (I think they had Northworld in the titles).

 

In it, warriors wore power armor that had the equivalent of energy lance weapons. The armor required skill and training to build and use, so only a privileged few had any.

 

I guess you could use a similar concept with lightsabers. Only someone with the money / connections to get one and train how to use it could carry one of them. That would fit well in a feudal / aristocratic culture.

 

A magical equivalent could be that the "lightsword" was the extension of your mana, soul, what-have-you, that you could summon. Again, only a few could master the ability, and it could be tied to some mystical or religious order.

 

In a slighly-related topic, in my never-quite-realized Star Wars campaign, I had a Jedi Master exile himself from the Order just before the Emperor shut it down. He believed that the Order needed to be more flexible and, to demonstrate this, taught his students to use light blasters rather than a lightsaber. ("Light" in this case as opposed to heavy blasters, i.e., Han Solo's gun).

 

Now, decades later, the remaining students wander the galaxy, avoiding the Emperor's eye. The symbol of their order are ornate light blasters in custom holsters. They're not Jedi Knights, they're... Jedi Paladins.

 

Yeah, my campaign had a strong "Wild West" flavor to it.

[clsage]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

So, I love light-sabers, and the whole crazy light-saber thing is cool... but a better setting would be nice. I like the films, even some of the books, but they don't really do it for me.

 

Could we concoct another set of genre tropes to make this a viable portion of a gaming universe? Ideas welcome, of course, go nuts.

 

Well.....How about:

 

Blasters utilize the element as a

key component. Afore-said element also has the nasty effect of suppressing

any sort of psi ability, if kept in proximity for any noticable length of time.

The gaseous form of this element has an even greater negative effect and

blasters release copious amounts of said gas when fired.

 

"Force sensitivity" is, at its' heart, a set of psi abilities (empathic reading

and direction, clairesentience(sp?), telekenisis, etc...) so any long term

use of blasters (or related weapons) causes a psi capable individual to

lose those abilities....However, magnetically contained plasma blades have

no such problem. And in the hands of a skilled individual these blades can

be as effective in close combat as any blaster. Thus the signature weapon

of the Order Of The Pathfinders is the plasma blade.

 

My $.02US......

 

-Carl-

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

I plugged in a Jedi like orginizaion into my Space Master campaign a long time ago.

 

The idea I had was that hundreds of years ago, a small group of people pining for old honor and such in these days of pure politics got together, and formed a knightly order that was modeled on what they saw as the best aspects of the classic medieval knights. Then they invented the lightsaber, and were pretty much the only people who knew how to use it.

 

By the time period where the game was set, they were an accepted part of the universe.

[RPMiller]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

Lightsabers are used because there is no such thing as a blaster. No one ever figured out how to actually fling energy out of a handheld device. The power required is just too great. However, there is a psionic discipline that teaches how to contain an energy field. This discipline makes lightsabers possible. The saber itself just generates the energy, but without focusing it so in the hands of a "normal" it just dumps all its energy out and onto the floor burning a huge hole and probably killing the person or at least removing their feet. The trained psionic however is able to focus the energy into a line and use it as a weapon. Once they have mastered it it takes very little effort on their part.

 

There are still blasters, but they are equivalent to cannons or Gatling guns, and require lots of energy. This means that slugs are still predominate, but more advanced. Of course against a lightsaber the slug instantly disintegrates on contact.

[austenandrews]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

I once had lightsaber-equivalents that were also cutting tools (super-cold in this case). The length of the blade was variable.

 

One way to make lightsabers reasonable without the Force is to have them (or some other device) generate personal force fields that only lightsabers can ignore. Gets you the Jedi defensive ability without precognition.

[Remjin]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

Given out too much rep in the last 24 hours.. blah blah... tried to rep everyone, will finish when I have more to give. =)

 

Wow, lots of ideas, thanks so very much! I'm seeing potential here.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

Realistically speaking, most non-war shootings take place within about 20 feet. That's about three hexes--enough for someone to make a half-move and attack. Realistically, someone armed with a knife, standing twenty feet away from you, can stab you before you can draw a gun and fire.

 

With the right training, which would DEFINITELY include Fast-Draw, you could basically have a guaranteed kill on any one person within twenty-odd feet of you. Lightsabers are the only weapon that can do this, because modern (i.e. futuristic) body armor makes a muscle-powered melee weapon more or less ineffective.

 

There's also the psychological factor--being cut scares people more than being shot. Being BURNED scares them even worse. The thought of being lightsabered in half is going to leave people scared spitless. The glow and hum of this energly blade flashing around, and the pieces of buddies hitting the floor, are going to drive people into a panic, vastly decreasing their accuracy. (Watch the movie "Unforgiven" for a great example of panic-induced inaccuracy)

 

And, of course, lightsabers are as cool as all get-out, and make fantastic cutting tools.

 

And carrying one implies that you are seriously badass.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

well, its not lightsabers, but Dune had the idea of personal energy shields that could only be penetrated by a slow (compared to ballistics speed) movement, thus making bladed weapons a viable option (actually the only option, considering a laser hitting a personal shield equals an atomic level explosion). maybe something like this could help you out. oh, also check out the Star Wars: Legacy comics for a slightly new take on the subject. Imperial Knights... yea you heard me. pretty good story too, for Star Wars (only a sort of fan).

[Nolgroth]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

So' date=' I love light-sabers, and the whole crazy light-saber thing is cool... [/quote']I'm with you there. Before the board policy changed our custom user titles, mine was Lightsaber Messiah.

 

Could we concoct another set of genre tropes to make this a viable portion of a gaming universe? Ideas welcome, of course, go nuts.

Not sure of tropes per se, but I think that "energy" blades like lightsabers should be relatively easy for any ATRI 12 (to borrow from official HERO universe lingo) or better society. In this case Zero Point energy is your friend.

 

Beyond that, much of my thoughts echo the other posters. I had a campaign idea where lightsabers play some significance, but nothing significant to add regarding the generic, non-Star Wars use of lightsaber-ish weapons.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

I once had lightsaber-equivalents that were also cutting tools (super-cold in this case). The length of the blade was variable.

 

Again, not quite an energy sword, but I had a character who kept a "laser welding tool" on her. Weapons (energy, projectile, bladed, whatever) were pretty restricted, so it behooved her to carry something she could excuse as a tool of her trade rather than a weapon. (It generated a variable length energy field of up to a foot or two, capable of welding plates of hull-grade metal[1] together, so it could be used as a "light dagger".)

 

In that case, it's very hard to justify a blaster or projectile weapon as anything other than a weapon. Aren't there a number of martial arts weapons that were supposed to have plausible deniability as farming implements?

 

 

 

[1] (I had a presence attack that ran "I use this to weld together six-inch plates of steel. What do you suppose it'll do to your head?")

[Rick]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

In that case, it's very hard to justify a blaster or projectile weapon as anything other than a weapon. Aren't there a number of martial arts weapons that were supposed to have plausible deniability as farming implements?

 

 

 

[1] (I had a presence attack that ran "I use this to weld together six-inch plates of steel. What do you suppose it'll do to your head?")

 

 

Well Okinawan weapons were farming impliment often. Kama/sythes, Sia/hail bailers(I think), Nunchucks(Sp?)/wheat threshers.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

sais were actually used to bore holes for planting i thought. but i can't remember for sure one way or the other. and the correct spelling is nunchaku, and the modern versions of all said weapons have been altered enough so that there is some debate as to their farm tool origins. i know the sai existed in other south asian countries before arriving in Okinawa.

 

Okinawa (or RyuKyu to give them their pre conquered name) was a wealthy commerical state, and had a lot of trade with China, Thailand, etc. which is where alot of these weapons are thought to have come into Okinawa from, as well as the various forms of martial arts that became karate.

 

did a lot of research for a superhero character who billed himself as a modern day samurai (atomic powers, flight, and martial arts). anyway, thats my two coppers.

[Remjin]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

Hmmm.... between the welder idea and the ikinawan weapon concept, that could form an origin in and of itself. Perhaps as a result of stories similar to the original union formings and the like. That makes for something interesting....

 

As for shooting versus melee stats, I believe you're referring to the distance average. Meaning that there are many that happen beyond 21 feet, and many much closer. There is also the example of an average guy moving like 20 yards in 2.X seconds (forgot actual number, but its supposed to be your average draw and present time and quite a bit of distance) to show how you are disadvantaged in that situation in gun vs. blade.

 

I believe the okinawan definitions are mainly correct, though I believe the sai was always a weapon, but inspired somewhat from a tool. It was originally just a metal bar with two curved tines on it, carried in threes. The first to throw and hopefully entangle or disrupt he samurai, the other two as bludgeons. Neat stuff.

 

Hmmm... makes me think, this might make for interesting origins. Perhaps taking from certain historical elements like these and the reasonings for their use above could result in a certain grass roots origin for a knightly order.

 

Then the shields, which are neat, could be another whole part of it... I had conceived of a jedi counterpart focusing on a martial arts culture who used the force and shields to overcome their foes by enabling them their traditional unarmed fighting practices.

 

This is forming up nicely in my head for a good chunk of the light-saber use and such... but what about the world/universe to reside in? Imperial oppression seems a bit cliche in its normal guise... what have some of you used for your themes?

[Karmakaze]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

...the modern versions of all said weapons have been altered enough so that there is some debate as to their farm tool origins.

 

It's hard to separate out legendary "origin stories" from the truth on these things. (That's why I went with "plausible deniability" instead of saying weapons were explicitly improvised weapons.) I seem to recall there was a Brazilian martial art that the practitioners tried to cover with "Who, us? We're not practicing how to fight. We're, um, dancing. Yeah... dancing! Watch us dance!"

 

Hmmm.... between the welder idea and the ikinawan weapon concept, that could form an origin in and of itself. Perhaps as a result of stories similar to the original union formings and the like. That makes for something interesting....

 

...

 

Hmmm... makes me think, this might make for interesting origins. Perhaps taking from certain historical elements like these and the reasonings for their use above could result in a certain grass roots origin for a knightly order.

 

...

 

This is forming up nicely in my head for a good chunk of the light-saber use and such... but what about the world/universe to reside in? Imperial oppression seems a bit cliche in its normal guise... what have some of you used for your themes?

 

As far as origins go, a lot of martial arts weapons were supposedly developed from farm implements, because most folks who weren't in the warrior class were farmers at the time. In an industrialized society, the invisible underclass are more likely to be maintenance workers (including domestic maintenance, like housecleaners), so a toolbox, mechanic's kit, or a maid's trolley might be a good place to look for implements that could be modified.

 

Rather than a traditional dynasty-based Empire, there's the model Firefly used. The core worlds were ostensibly democratic, but wound up being oppressive with the tyranny of the majority. They valued order and security so much that they felt they had the right to impose order by force "for their own good".

 

The oppressive state could be a hegemony that tries (and possibly by the start of the story has largely succeeded) to absorb any other nation around it. On the surface they're "protecting their borders" and "providing safety and a better life to the client states" but underneath is driven by a sort of xenophobia.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

if you've every seen Capoeira, it is very easy to picture it being disguised as a tribal dance oriented ritual or tradition, especially the emphasis on rythym, drums (which are played by practictioners outside the roda) and the lack of many punches (only an elbow strike exists in traditional styles). on this, i think i can agree with the idea of it being disguised as dance.

[RPMiller]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

Especially since the slaves who created it supposedly hand their hands bound most of the time to prevent them from fighting back, or so the legend goes...

 

Here it is in action.

 

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

I might have what the topic creator is looking for:

 

http://www.gearsonline.net/fss/

 

Knights, sorcery, demons, superpowers in a sci-fi setting. The knights are the descendants of super soldiers and move so fast that they can use their lightsabre-like weapons (called Spadds) to deflect blasters and bullets, thus dueling with blades is the main form of combat between the knights.

 

Check it out, its tres cool.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

If you really want to do it right, and you want glowy sticks that chop people in half (who doesn't!) in your SF game...

 

I suggest NOT coming up with a logical reason. Just make it a part of society and create a half dozen semi-plausible but not necessarily true reasons that people carry around and use glowy sticks that can chop you in half.

 

If it's deeply integrated into the mentality of society enough there'll almost as many reasons for it as people. From religious philosophy to "Damn, I'm bass@$$" to "guns is expensive around here, glowy stick crystals ain't" to whatever....

 

Just watch where you wave that thing around eh?

[Remjin]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

As I see it, I don't need hugely defining items to justify it all, but its nice when it all just works out nicely. Some of the ideas here, beyond just having lightsabers, are great and may work well towards a pretty nifty little universe. The fact that some of it falls into the martial arts themes is just good for me anyway, since I'm a nut about that stuff anyway.

 

I mean, is it bad that while watching the Harry Potter movie, I came up with bad@$$ asian kung fu wizards? My wife and kids are huge fans, I like 'em somewhat, and that idea made it a bit more fun for me. =)

[Curufea]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

Variable Swords haven't been mentioned yet - from Ringworld.

 

A spool of monomolecular wire held in a stasis field. Variable because you can make it up to about 10m or so long. However- it requires a thing at the end to maintain the field or it collapses, so there is a small red ball there (also good for telling you where the sword finishes as it is invisible to the naked eye).

Therefore - not thrusts, can't cut your way out of an enclosed room, but great at cutting things in half.

[Remjin]

Re: Okay, Lightsabres rule... but Star Wars is so-so.

 

...but I really like the whole "jab this into stuff and use it like a plasma cutter" thing.. =)