SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Of course, the counter argument is that you will see a lot more players writing backgrounds to justify what they perceive they "need".

 

You will see more "elite athlete", "ex-Force Recon Marine" and "trained in martial arts his whole life" type characters rather than "mechanic", "reporter" or "fashion model".

 

If you want to avoid that, you need to make sure the perception of things matches up with the in game experience. This, I think, is where things fall apart most often...

 

Absolutely. For players to be comfortable with a lower range of both SPD and DEX, they have to be competetive at those lower ranges. That practically would mean dropping the SPD and DEX of every Super character to match the "new norm". "Typical Super" drops from DEX 23 to 14, and SPD 5 to 3. "Slow Brick" falls from 18 DEX to 8 and from 4 SPD to 2 SPD. "Fast Marial Artist" declines from 35 DEX to 26, and from 7 SPD to 5 SPD.

 

If you drop every Super by 9 DEX, and their SPD by 2, you end up with a structure where a "normal human" as the low end of Supers is workable. The CV's drop across the board, so you're as likely to hit now as you were before, and you have 38 points to spend elsewhere.

 

Now, I pick the amounts rather arbitrarily to get down to an 8 DEX, 2 SPD Brick. I think, in practice, I'd drop SPD by only 1 to give the Supers more panel time - the Thing and the Hulk ought to at least move as often as an agent.

 

As an added bonus, you get recoveries relatively more often, so your STUN, END and/or REC can also decline, and agents don't need AoE attacks to have a decent shot at hitting at least the Bricks (and watching their blasts have no meaningful effect).

 

In a point-based game system point efficiency is king. The simple fact is it's more efficient to by dex then it is to buy lightning reflexes, combat levels, and bonuses to dex-based skills. Number crunching means exactly what it sounds like it means.

 

Why buy +10 lightning reflexes for 15 points, +1 speed for 10 points, +3 combat (offensive only: -1) for 12 points, +3 dcv for 15 points, and +2 all dex skills for 10 points when you can buy +10 dex for 32 points cheaper [that's half price!]?

 

This is a separate issue. For the character who has faster reactions, better OCV and better DCV, I say those are all hallmarks of DEX. Whether the SFX is "he's really fast and agile" or "he's got a lot of combat training and experience", it's still DEX. I'm talking about lowering DEX across the board - and dropping CV and skill rolls with it.

 

By the way, much of the problem you cite above attributes directly to the fact that Lightning Reflexes is ridiculously overpriced. How can anyone suggest paying 15 points for +10 DEX only to move up the combat order when they can pay 20 for +10 DEX with No Figured Characteristics? That's +3 OCV, +3 DCV and +1 to all DEX based skills for 5 points.

 

To a lesser extent, skill levels are also overpriced. +3 DCV for 15 points, or +9 DEX with No Figured for 18 points isn't much of a choice, is it? However, in a a game which applies NCM, any price reduction would make them far too great a bargain.

 

Maybe 6th Ed can vary the price of skill levels between heroic and superheroic games to reflect their reduced utility in superheroic games. Of course, now we're moving back towards the "separate games for separate genres" approach, but the NCM rules already require that to some extent.

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Of course, the counter argument is that you will see a lot more players writing backgrounds to justify what they perceive they "need".

 

You will see more "elite athlete", "ex-Force Recon Marine" and "trained in martial arts his whole life" type characters rather than "mechanic", "reporter" or "fashion model".

How right you are!

 

Who is to judge what a given origin story should or should not allow? Barry Allen (The Flash) was doused in chemicals whilst he was simultaneously struck by lightning. So why didn't he gain electrical powers or chemical powers? What (besides the whim of the writer) gave him superspeed instead of powers based on the elements he was exposed to? Why make someone do bizarre origin twisting ("He was bitten by a radioactive gymnast just before being exposed to Element X.") in order to let them get some improved characteristics?

 

Besides, most (maybe all) players want to play someone who is better than average. They may want a Secret ID of Joe Couchpotato, but they want it to be Joe only after he's gone on a serious physical fitness jag, lost the spare tire and buffed up, and gained some serious combat experience (Why else all those Hunteds?).

[assault]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

I must admit that if I was to play Reed Richards, it would be the version who was in the OSS in WWII. Or he would have been in the CIA in a later setting.

 

That would allow him to buy super-spy characteristics...

 

Similarly, Ben Grimm wouldn't just be a pilot, he would be a Marine.

 

Even Johnny would have faster-than-usual reflexes from his hotrod driving.

 

Sue, of course, would be the one who draws the short straw.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

By the way, much of the problem you cite above attributes directly to the fact that Lightning Reflexes is ridiculously overpriced. How can anyone suggest paying 15 points for +10 DEX only to move up the combat order when they can pay 20 for +10 DEX with No Figured Characteristics? That's +3 OCV, +3 DCV and +1 to all DEX based skills for 5 points.

 

To a lesser extent, skill levels are also overpriced. +3 DCV for 15 points, or +9 DEX with No Figured for 18 points isn't much of a choice, is it? However, in a a game which applies NCM, any price reduction would make them far too great a bargain.

 

Maybe 6th Ed can vary the price of skill levels between heroic and superheroic games to reflect their reduced utility in superheroic games. Of course, now we're moving back towards the "separate games for separate genres" approach, but the NCM rules already require that to some extent.

 

I don't know why anyone would ever buy 10 points of Lightning reflexes. I think it works best and makes more sense at the 3 to 5 point level. It makes that little bit of differnce between my character with 23 DEX and 5 SPD and another. It makes more sense to me when it is used for specific actions or in heroic campaigns.

 

Otherwise, just buy DEX. With figured characteristics or not.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

See, this is where it goes off the rails for many people. "Bob the underachiever couch potato is exposed to cosmic rays gains power over heat and fire. He adopts the identity of The Flaming Idiot." Bob immediately jumps from DEX 8, SPD 2 to reaction times comparable to Robin Hood or Bruce Lee. His powers did not, in any way, make him faster than a normal human. Now, presumably, Bob will do some trainng now that he's a superhero, and even being in combat will help him hone his skills through practice. But, based on your chart above, the best he should achieve in a short to medium period of time is a SPD of 3.

 

I think that generally, comics characters fall into a 2-5 speed range, with a few 6s hanging out there. So, Bob here would fall into the 2 range and have to work his way up to 3. Nothing wrong with that, but you just described a character concept more fitting for a joke character or sidekick than what Champions has always aimed for, which is more mid-lister, could have his own title type of character.

 

In order to bring his normal human reflexes up to a SPD of 4, you indicate he needs "great reflexes, extreme alertness" (neither of which he possesses) "and then add on a huge heap of experience under fire", which he will only get through a huge heap of superheroic experience.

 

Eh, it was late when I typed that description, but yeah, he'd have to be a combat veteran to get there. Most superheroes fall into SPD 4 just by virtue of having survived through many issues of their own or others' comics. I'm pretty sure every RPG I've read has had a statement assuming the DEFAULT power level is designed to allow for some experience. Again, if you want to buck that trend, and save some points, that's fine. You've now got Bob with fire powers and no combat skills. But you can also afford to buy things like AOEs that still have decent base DCs in them, or special attacks like maybe a heat attack in an area that impedes everyone without the appropriate life support. You don't need to be SPD 4 to keep up with all of the average supers who are sitting at SPD 4, but you'll probably get up to SPD 4 with experience.

 

Also, that was reflexes OR alertness. I'm not looking back at my OP now to see what I typed, but if I didn't make that clear, my bad. My intention was to point out that you generally don't have to be a physical powerhouse to achieve SPD 4 in my way of thinking. A high level of situational awareness allows one to anticipate future actions, giving more effective actions. Let's face it, I can certainly attack someone more than twelve times in twelve seconds, but the intent of rolling attacks based on SPD is to show the number of effective attacks someone can toss out in that timeframe. Your brain has as much to do with your effectiveness as your body does. That's why I was pointing to experience and alertness bridging the gap from SPD 3 to SPD 4.

 

SPD 4 should not be given out like candy. It points to someone who is in some way special. If you want to make a physically unremarkable hero with a speed less than 4, that's OK. You need to sit down and think about what SPD really means before making that decision though.

 

Yet, to be competetive, the player and the GM will bump Bob from normal speed, past all those well-trained agents, above those individuals who combine "great reflexes, extreme alertness and then add on a huge heap of experience under fire", and put him up to a speed of 5, so Bob went from couch potato to Bruce Lee, despite the fact his superpowers have nothing whatsoever to do with his reflexes.

 

Then give Bob SPD 3. It just gives you more points to budget for other things. You're using an example of a guy with NO combat training and NO combat experience, and you want to use him in a genre which has a heavy focus on combat? Ok, if you want to define it that way, you can play it that way. I think most experienced heroes will fall out around SPD 4 if you benchmarked them. Taking a less experienced hero and starting him around SPD 3 makes sense.

 

I think the problem you're having here is that the average SPD of official write ups falls around SPD 5 rather than SPD 4. I've never said a campaign average should be SPD 5. You just tossed that in. Maybe that hypothetical GM didn't think things through?

 

Really, Bob's not all that different from Johnny Storm. Johnny demonstrates no unusual speed or dexterity. Over time, he's gained experience under fire and likely gained some speed and accuracy through many years of practice (both in training and in the field). But, by your outline above, there is no way he should ever exceed a SPD 4, and may not even qualify for that. Other than some bizarre link between wearing your underwear on the outside and improved reaction times.

 

I'd say Johnny Storm is probably a SPD 4 character. In general, I think Marvel comics are a lower-DEX/SPD campaign than, say DC, where you have a ton of enhanced physical capabilities guys. So, I don't get what your point is here? That you agree with me? Or that Johnny Storm should be SPD 5 or needs to be SPD 5 to compete in a Champions environment. If it's the latter, then you'll notice I said the major balancing point is CV, not SPD. With all of hero's combat options and power customization, you can be hideously effective at lower SPD values. Just because a Viper Agent and a Hero both have SPD 3 doesn't mean the Viper agent actually has a chance to beat the Hero.

 

So, basically, the game should have one SPD for everyone from Flaming Idiot to just below the Cap/Spidey level, then lump everyone from Batman/Cap to Spidey/Beast/Nightcrawler (with a very few exceptions) into a second. The rare speedster can fall into a third category.

 

Yeah, basically. Do you want games with a huge SPD spread? That can be pretty unbalancing. Remember, the default human level gives you three values: 2, 3, and 4. Since you want your heroes to be a bit more effective than standard baseline humans, you nudge your chart to 3-5. You allow for shticks, such as "best of the best" type Martial Artists to go for a 6. In general, most speedsters are fine at speed 6. You could also just go with a range of 2-4 and use Hero to model combat effectiveness differently. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THAT YOU ARE WORKING WITHIN A RANGE OF NUMBERS THAT DOESN'T UNBALANCE THE GAME. You can't do that effectively if you open up all values on the SPD chart to players.*

 

Oh, but the speedster shares this exceptional ability with everyone from Flaming Idiot (if Flamy gets an attitude adjustment and enough xp to become a "major villain") on up, provided they're "major villains" - apparently, SPD is also enhanced if you're a bad guy, since only major VILLAINS get this special treatment.

 

Usually when people start a sentence with "Oh, but..." on a message board, they're either being sarcastic or talking down to someone. I'd advise you that neither is conducive to productive discourse. Of I could call you a jackass. You pick.

 

I'll help you out here, since you are having trouble wrapping your mind around the concept of "major villain." A major villain is capable of challenging an entire super team. In order to have enough actions to challenge a team, they'll need a higher SPD. You don't seem capable of defining SPD as a measure of anything other than PHYSICAL prowess. That's not my problem, it's yours.

 

What if the major villain is also a speedster?

 

Is Darkseid as fast as the Flash?

 

He most likely doesn't move as fast, but he probably has more chances to take EFFECTIVE actions within 12 seconds. Speedsters on the Flash's level don't work well in games, period. The concept is horribly overpowered. If you look at a more balanced approach to the problem, such as how the Flash is portrayed in the DC Animated Universe, then I'd say THAT Flash probably has a lower SPD score than THAT Darkseid.

 

ummm...in the four colour genre, thugs and agents are generally able to shoot the heros whose schtick is not speed and agility on a pretty regular basis. Sure, they don't hit Bats or Cap or Hawkeye very often, but Iron Man, the Thing and Mr. Fantastic? No problem. Certainly not the roughly 1 in 4 chance that a 5 OCV gunman has of connecting with the base 8 DCV provided by a 23 DEX. And that 5 OCV is already pushing into "agent" territory.

 

So, what's your argument exactly? That the martial artists get hit less often than the non martial artists? Pull your head out of your behind for a second and think about the question at hand.

 

What is the OCV of a well trained agent? More than a couch potato, more than the local police, probably on par with elite military units. What's an elite military unit capable of in a cinematic setting such as a comic book? The answer: A hell of a lot more than a real person with the same job. That's a BASE CV from DEX of about 5. Add in a few CSLs with their weapons, and it goes up. I'm assuming that most agents have training, maybe not in your campaign.

 

Also, let's look at who gets hit and who doesn't get hit. You say Iron Man gets hit a lot? No kidding. Who'd have imagined a guy wearing the most sophisticated suit of ARMOR on the planet, a guy whose moniker includes "Invincible," doesn't bother to fight defensively against mooks! Same for your other examples. HOWEVER, if Iron Man DOESN'T want to be hit, he's pretty damned good at NOT being hit, even by superhuman opponents. The suit does enhance his reflexes and speed.

 

It's pretty easy to say so and so gets hit by agents or mooks all the time, but you don't bother to think that maybe they get hit because they simply don't care? You didn't think when you made that example that the martial artists don't get hit as much simply because they can't take the hit? What is the point of your argument?

 

I say keep your SPD range to about a normal spread of three with some outliers to account for character shticks and to closely monitor your CVs, and you come back with anger that you can't play Bob the Flaming Couch Potato concept? Is that concept even in genre? What an utterly useless contribution to the endless debate. Try again, with less vitriol and sarcasm.

 

*Edit: I'm going to go ahead and note that people do, in fact, make the wider SPD range approach work. It's certainly not easy, nor in my example (which my whole original post was based on being a statement of my view of things) really necessary to model a comic style supers universe.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Well, I had a lengthy reply, but I lost it...

 

I think that generally' date=' comics characters fall into a 2-5 speed range, with a few 6s hanging out there. So, Bob here would fall into the 2 range and have to work his way up to 3. Nothing wrong with that, but you just described a character concept more fitting for a joke character or sidekick than what Champions has always aimed for, which is more mid-lister, could have his own title type of character.[/quote']

 

The concept doesn't have to change much to be similar to many starting level comic characters. Perhaps a "dilettante playboy or heiress" (Tony Stark, Janet Van Dyne, Oliver Queen, Ted Kord). Maybe he's a scientist (Hank Pym, Ray Palmer). He could be a high school student (Ronnie Raymond, Johnny Storm), a stage magician (Zatanna) or an artist handed the most powerful weapon in the universe (Kyle Rayner).

 

Lots of comic book characters are created by the accidental discovery or impartation of super powers that have nothing to do with enhancing speed, reflexes or cognitive abilities. Many of these had no prior combat training or experience. To say that EVERY Super qualifies for a 4 SPD under your descriptions seems a major stretch.

 

Eh, it was late when I typed that description, but yeah, he'd have to be a combat veteran to get there. Most superheroes fall into SPD 4 just by virtue of having survived through many issues of their own or others' comics. I'm pretty sure every RPG I've read has had a statement assuming the DEFAULT power level is designed to allow for some experience. Again, if you want to buck that trend, and save some points, that's fine. You've now got Bob with fire powers and no combat skills. But you can also afford to buy things like AOEs that still have decent base DCs in them, or special attacks like maybe a heat attack in an area that impedes everyone without the appropriate life support. You don't need to be SPD 4 to keep up with all of the average supers who are sitting at SPD 4, but you'll probably get up to SPD 4 with experience.

 

Also, that was reflexes OR alertness. I'm not looking back at my OP now to see what I typed, but if I didn't make that clear, my bad. My intention was to point out that you generally don't have to be a physical powerhouse to achieve SPD 4 in my way of thinking. A high level of situational awareness allows one to anticipate future actions, giving more effective actions. Let's face it, I can certainly attack someone more than twelve times in twelve seconds, but the intent of rolling attacks based on SPD is to show the number of effective attacks someone can toss out in that timeframe. Your brain has as much to do with your effectiveness as your body does. That's why I was pointing to experience and alertness bridging the gap from SPD 3 to SPD 4.

 

Your original descriptions follow. Perhaps you want to clarify them.

 

3: Jocks, Soldiers, Generic Agents, leet FPS players (but only in game). You get a 3 SPD through not only good coordination, and being in good shape, but also through maintaining a high level of alertness. This represents the ability to quickly size up a situation and act decisively, two things most people can't do.

 

4: Elite Athletes and Military. Take great reflexes, extreme alertness and then add on a huge heap of experience under fire. You won't find any non-combatants here, though you may see someone like a jockey or Indie car driver at 3 SPD. You don't train for 4 SPD, you earn it.

 

So, for a SPD 3, I need either "good coordination, and being in good shape" or "a high level of alertness". I don't see every Super as having one or the other prerequisite required to qualify.

 

For SPD 4, you seem to be backing off from needing either "great reflexes" or "extreme alertness " as a prerequisite, since you consider virtually every Super can get there. "Great" and "extreme" to be are not commonplace, even in Supers. As well, "a huge heap of experience under fire" strikes me as a lot more than "allowing for some experience".

 

SPD 4 should not be given out like candy. It points to someone who is in some way special. If you want to make a physically unremarkable hero with a speed less than 4' date=' that's OK. You need to sit down and think about what SPD really means before making that decision though. [/quote']

 

Which is it? You say this should not be available to just anyone, but you then tell me that setting a SPD less than 4 for a Super is uncommon, and a decision that needs to be carefully considered.

 

Then give Bob SPD 3. It just gives you more points to budget for other things. You're using an example of a guy with NO combat training and NO combat experience' date=' and you want to use him in a genre which has a heavy focus on combat? Ok, if you want to define it that way, you can play it that way. I think most experienced heroes will fall out around SPD 4 if you benchmarked them. Taking a less experienced hero and starting him around SPD 3 makes sense.[/quote']

 

It's also a genre where ordinary guys "with NO combat training and NO combat experience" gain superpowers in bizarre accidents fairly regularly. They immediately put on their SuperSuits and away they go.

 

I think the problem you're having here is that the average SPD of official write ups falls around SPD 5 rather than SPD 4. I've never said a campaign average should be SPD 5. You just tossed that in. Maybe that hypothetical GM didn't think things through?

 

"That hypothetical GM" is the entire history of published Hero materials. The fact is that there are three approaches to the DEX/SPD issue.

 

Some say "Well, comic book Supers are larger than life, so having the slowest Supers match the top end of human norm is a good thing." This is definitely consistent with the published baseline of 5 SPD, 23 DEX.

 

Others say "Well, it's kind of dumb that the slowest Super is at NCM, but it's ingrained in the published material, and the mindset of experienced players. It's not worth the (substantial) effort it would take to fix it." I'm in that camp. I'll discuss it in these threads, but I haven't made the effort to change my games.

 

A third group, however, finds this damages their enjoyment of the game. To them, I say the answer is to take the published Super characters - the whole CU level campaign - and subtract 9 DEX and 2 SPD from everyone. You'll end up with a standard range of DEX from about 9 to 26, and SPD from about 2 - 5, with some outliers. Oh look - the low end is now the baseline human norm, with most Supers above average, but still within the NCM level. And everyone compares the same as they did before. A 3 OCV vs 5 DCV needs a 9- to hit. So does a 6 OCV vs an 8 DCV, or a 9 OCV vs an 11 DCV.

 

 

I'd say Johnny Storm is probably a SPD 4 character.

 

Now find an energy projector writeup (especially one with his years of experience) that's less than 5.

 

So' date=' I don't get what your point is here? That you agree with me? Or that Johnny Storm should be SPD 5 or needs to be SPD 5 to compete in a Champions environment. If it's the latter, then you'll notice I said the major balancing point is CV, not SPD.[/quote']

 

Both. He should be a 3 starting out, getting to 4 with experience. To compete in a typical Champions environment - and to not FEEL unusually slow - he needs a 5, maybe a 6 with xp.

 

With all of hero's combat options and power customization' date=' you can be hideously effective at lower SPD values. Just because a Viper Agent and a Hero both have SPD 3 doesn't mean the Viper agent actually has a chance to beat the Hero. [/quote']

 

Often, GM's have damage caps (and everyone's at the top), defense caps (ditto) and CV caps (and no one's far off there either). Unless that low (high) speed is offset with increased (reduced) abilities in other areas, there will be no balance. On the other hand, games like Trebuchet's, where SPD ranges from 4 to 9 and DC's have a similarly wide range, show that you can have balance without having sameness. But there needs to be a tradeoff – a 6 SPD character should be able to do more damage than a 9 SPD character, but not as much as a 4 SPD character (taking damage and SPD in isolation). If everyone gets the same 12DC damage cap, of course the higher SPD character will be the more effective offensively. Treb’s group solves this by capping the sum of SPD and DC’s, which I understand works well (at least for them).

 

Yeah, basically. Do you want games with a huge SPD spread? That can be pretty unbalancing. Remember, the default human level gives you three values: 2, 3, and 4. Since you want your heroes to be a bit more effective than standard baseline humans, you nudge your chart to 3-5. You allow for shticks, such as "best of the best" type Martial Artists to go for a 6. In general, most speedsters are fine at speed 6. You could also just go with a range of 2-4 and use Hero to model combat effectiveness differently. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THAT YOU ARE WORKING WITHIN A RANGE OF NUMBERS THAT DOESN'T UNBALANCE THE GAME. You can't do that effectively if you open up all values on the SPD chart to players.*

 

*Edit: I'm going to go ahead and note that people do, in fact, make the wider SPD range approach work. It's certainly not easy, nor in my example (which my whole original post was based on being a statement of my view of things) really necessary to model a comic style supers universe.

 

I think your 3 point range is tighter than the published Supers examples. As well, to the extent there is a 3 point range for Supers, it has settled in at either 4 – 6 or 5 – 7. However, the discussion of range has little to do with the discussion of whether the norm needs to be well above human normal. You could certainly have a Supers setting with a 3 – 5 typical range, and some outliers at 2 and 6-7. I think CU can be described as having a 5 – 7 typical range, and some outliers at 4 and 8-9. Drop everyone’s SPD by 2 and they fall neatly in line with your suggested 3-5 range.

 

As to opening up the speed chart, it depends on what else is opened up. There needs to be a tradeoff, as discussed above. If my game sets damage at 12 DC (a cap, but does ANY character do damage below that cap), defenses at 20 – 25 and CV’s at 10-12, then opening up the SPD chart and getting characters ranging from 3 SPD, 12 DC, 25 DEF, 10 CV and 10 SPD, 12 DC, 20 DEF, 12 CV, that doesn’t look very balanced. OTOH, if we had a range from 3 SPD, 16 DC, 32 DEF, 8 CV to 10 SPD, 9 DC, 12 DEF, 15 CV, that would see a significant spread in ability at all levels, and may be quite a bit more balanced.

 

And truer to the source, in my view. “Stand still, Bug-Man, so Hulk can smash you!” “Fat chance – now if I could figure out a way to hurt something other than my hand when I hit you, we’d be in business.” I suspect Treb’s team brick vs Zlf would have a similar standoff.

 

Usually when people start a sentence with "Oh' date=' but..." on a message board, they're either being sarcastic or talking down to someone. I'd advise you that neither is conducive to productive discourse. Of I could call you a jackass. You pick.[/quote']

 

Reading the tone of your comments, I have a tough time perceiving you to occupy the moral high ground. Perhaps we might leave it at that. I will say it is not my intent to talk down to you. I reserve the right to exercise sarcasm.

 

An approach where PC’s are held strictly to one standard and NPC;’s are not bothers me. That’s fleshed out below.

 

I'll help you out here, since you are having trouble wrapping your mind around the concept of "major villain." A major villain is capable of challenging an entire super team. In order to have enough actions to challenge a team, they'll need a higher SPD. You don't seem capable of defining SPD as a measure of anything other than PHYSICAL prowess. That's not my problem, it's yours.

 

He most likely doesn't move as fast, but he probably has more chances to take EFFECTIVE actions within 12 seconds. Speedsters on the Flash's level don't work well in games, period. The concept is horribly overpowered. If you look at a more balanced approach to the problem, such as how the Flash is portrayed in the DC Animated Universe, then I'd say THAT Flash probably has a lower SPD score than THAT Darkseid.

 

Above, you say the lower SPD character can still be effective. Here, you say the high SPD is essential. I’m more inclined to agree with the former than the latter. Flash can hit Darkseid any number of times – Darkseid won’t be hurt. Flash has a high SPD, but comparatively low DC’s, and Darkseid has comparatively high defenses to offset his low DCV, and his schtick doesn’t require a high SPD. Flash’s extra phases are probably best spent running away.

 

And if my character concept is “the fastest man alive”, I expect him to FEEL like “the fastest man alive”, not “another guy with average speed – the big villains are as fast or faster whether or not they have speed, agility or reaction times as part of their schtick”.

 

So' date=' what's your argument exactly? That the martial artists get hit less often than the non martial artists? Pull your head out of your behind for a second and think about the question at hand. [/quote']

 

I’m so glad you want to keep the discussion on a level conducive to productive discourse…

 

What is the OCV of a well trained agent? More than a couch potato' date=' more than the local police, probably on par with elite military units. What's an elite military unit capable of in a cinematic setting such as a comic book? The answer: A hell of a lot more than a real person with the same job. That's a BASE CV from DEX of about 5. Add in a few CSLs with their weapons, and it goes up. I'm assuming that most agents have training, maybe not in your campaign.[/quote']

 

What is the OCV of a CU VIPER agent? 5, maybe 6? No books in front of me.

 

Also, let's look at who gets hit and who doesn't get hit. You say Iron Man gets hit a lot? No kidding. Who'd have imagined a guy wearing the most sophisticated suit of ARMOR on the planet, a guy whose moniker includes "Invincible," doesn't bother to fight defensively against mooks! Same for your other examples. HOWEVER, if Iron Man DOESN'T want to be hit, he's pretty damned good at NOT being hit, even by superhuman opponents. The suit does enhance his reflexes and speed.

 

It's pretty easy to say so and so gets hit by agents or mooks all the time, but you don't bother to think that maybe they get hit because they simply don't care? You didn't think when you made that example that the martial artists don't get hit as much simply because they can't take the hit? What is the point of your argument?

 

What’s IM’s DEX? 23? 26? That’s an 8 or 9 base DCV – as nondefensive as Hero characters can fight while still being in combat. I think he gets hit more than 25 – 37.5% of the time by agents. That requires a spread between his DCV and their OCV of less than 2 or 3 in his favour.

 

I say keep your SPD range to about a normal spread of three with some outliers to account for character shticks and to closely monitor your CVs' date=' and you come back with anger that you can't play Bob the Flaming Couch Potato concept? Is that concept even in genre? [/quote']

 

Janet Van Dyne. Ted Kord. Hank Pym. Kyle Rayner. Susan Storm. Ray Palmer. These characters have no background abilities or training that move them much beyond Bob the Flaming Couch Potato. Are their concepts not in genre?

 

What an utterly useless contribution to the endless debate. Try again' date=' with less vitriol and sarcasm.[/quote']

 

Your posts provide such an excellent example. I shall strive to better emulate them. I can only assume you find it easier to attack the phrasing than the concepts.

 

By the way, I find your chart a good benchmark for a potential Supers game that would deflate SPD levels. However, if I were to apply it, I'd want to see it applied consistently - PC and NPC, novices and master villains. If a character is allowed a 7 SPD because of his schtick, and as a consequence is one of the fastest living beings, he should not routinely face opponents with the same or higher SPD. That's stepping on his schtick.

[Victim]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Like that post isn't lengthy already?

 

Actually, I'm not really sure that speedster type characters demand high SPD scores. Admittedly, my knowledge of comics is not so great. However, it seems like speedsters don't really seem to take extra actions. They'll perform crazy speedster stunts on their "turns" like punching/disarming everyone (or swinging everwhere to hit the invisible guy), move vast distances, build things, etc. But they won't generally do several of those things before the focus shifts to another character. So a speedster might have only a campaign average speed, but the points savings might go towards more movement and tricks (bigger MP/VPP?).

[GoldenAge]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

It's my experience that a max 30 DEX and 6 SPEED always works out well.

 

- My average norms usually have a 2 SPEED and 8-10 DEX (no biggie)

 

- My agents usually have a 3 SPEED and a 15 - 20 DEX (20 DEX for the very best). This seems like a natural evolution from an unskilled human and gives the agents the extra action and OCV/DCV to dominate the average person without looking like a superhero.

 

- My average Bricks have a 4-5 SPEED and an 18-24 DEX. Again, this has always felt like a natural leap up from un-powered individuals and gives Bricks the necessary attacks to keep up with faster individuals without allowing for the unbalanced domination of combats and the environment in general by their incredible strength. Energy Blasters usually fall nicely in around a 23-27 DEX and 5 SPEED.

 

- My Speedsters and Martial Artists are allowed a max 30 DEX and 6 SPEED. These stats are easily high enough to allow for the abortive actions a MA/Speedster usually needs to survive combat with Blasters and Bricks PLUS the extra action or two to perform unique MA maneuvers or Speed tricks. In addition, the lack of the extra action

one would receive from a 7 SPEED forces the MA/Speedster to pay close attention to his/her SPEED Chart. There's nothing better than a great MA character who massages his SPEED chart (by holding) to lay down the perfect, unopposed attack (or flurries of attacks) on another character that seem more powerful.

 

Of course hybrid characters can end up anywhere, but I’ve always had great results with the 30 DEX/6 SPEED cap. The greatest advantage is fluid game play. There’s never 1 character dominating the scenario with multiple actions (which can become quite tedious for the lower SPEED characters… and the GM)

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Well, I had a lengthy reply, but I lost it...

 

You could have lost that post too. You know, the problem I have is that you simply nitpick too much. I post a quick, rough outline in the middle of the night, in a hurry, and you come back with this extravagant, overbearing response. I don't care enough to go nitpicking over some crap I typed out in the middle of the night, so I'll try to restate what I was thinking. Maybe that'll work better.

 

I suggest that most people (that includes NPCs that will be in combat with PCs as well as PCs) in the campaign world should have a 3-5 speed. Exceptional fighters, like superheroic martial artists should be able to hit 6. 7 or above is the realm of speedsters. I don't expect players to run agents, so nobody is going to be taking SPD 3, the value is there because it's a common number that will be seen in game. PCs will usually be from 4-6, with most players opting for 5-6, regardless of their concepts. If you make them justify higher scores, then they will.

 

Most games run with 4-6 SPD, and have for years, with 5 and 6 being average. That doesn't mean the characters are average, it means that people like playing on the higher end of the scale. That's typical for published material, and if you set a well trained agent at 3, elite military normals at around 4, then you're not seeing PCs that are totally untouchable in terms of SPD. As long as most PCs fall within 3-4 pts of SPD from each other, you don't have problems with people getting bored waiting on their turn to act. That range kind of splits the difference between Marvel's pretty low stats type of campaign to DCs very inflated stats type of campaign.

 

As far as DEX, who cares? Seriously. You should be monitoring CV, skill rolls, and any other result that DEX contributes to, not DEX itself. If someone wants to make Captain America with a 20 DEX and a ton of CSLs, Lightning Reflexes, etc, and someone else wants to cut to the chase and just give him a 30 DEX, does it really matter? Are aesthetics of the character sheet as important as reasoning from effect and simply buying the end result? Not in my opinion.

 

Anyway, I'm done beating the dead horse. Hugh, you keep on fighting the good fight man, I'm out of here.

[gojira]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

- My agents usually have a 3 SPEED and a 15 - 20 DEX (20 DEX for the very best).

 

Pretty much the same for me, although some agents (including the Police) will have SPD 2 and DEX 10-13, plus some skill levels with weapons. That's the next step up for me. Then you get the "experienced" normal combatant with DEX 13-15, SPD 3, and more skill levels with weapons. This include Viper Agents and military combat veterans. Special forces will have SPD 3 and many more skill levels, going for breadth not higher numbers.

 

Just personal preference....

 

This is, of course, on a scale for superheroes. If the fastest man in the galaxy has SPD 10 to 12, you have to scale down your normals so everyone can fit on the same speed chart. In a campaign focusing soloing on military units, I could see allowing very experienced combat veterans up to speed 6 or so to simulate actual actions somewhat more realistically.

[Balabanto]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Well, the issue here for me isn't just low end vs. high end. It's "what's a good middle."

 

The thing is that in order to have a good middle, and also have good ends, you need to make sure that everything is affected across the board.

 

And by this, I don't just mean the PC's. Now, I run a world with about 50-70 PCs, plus everyone else, so I've seen the effects of all kinds of stuff on the gameworld.

 

And unfortunately, I've found that the standard DEX and SPD ranges really do work, as long as you don't let people have SPD above 6.

 

The problem comes in here:

 

Let's say you have player A. Player A views your world as working like the DC comics of the sixties and seventies. Because that's what he read. He believes that because of what he chooses to focus on, heroes should work in way X. He builds his character with a 26 DEX and a 6 SPD, and justifies everything along the way.

 

Now you have player B. Player B views your world as working like the Marvel Comics of the late 70's and early 80's. He has a very different idea of what superheroes are from player A. His character has a 23 DEX and a 5 SPD, and he justifies everything along the way, too.

 

Now let's take player C. Player C views the world as working along the lines of whatever era in comics the character he designs is supposed to be from. His character has a DEX of 20 and a SPD of 6.

 

Now...what's the problem?

 

They have EXACTLY the same concept.

 

Now, as a GM, you can tell people to rearrange some points. But the problem is, there are situations where people think a lot of this stuff isn't fair.

 

We don't live in an age anymore where the GM is god. Instead, we live in this creepy age of negotiation. Roleplaying is not cooperative storytelling to the point where people barter for favors.

 

You don't see this at conventions because all the rounds have pregens.

 

But I have players who come to me with complaints about other players all the time. I'm not a gamemaster anymore. I'm a therapist and a creative consultant.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

To me the issue is that if you put 'Speed' in the header of your post, you will get a lot of very emotional responses.

[ParagonAlpha]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

It seems to me that this is a discussion about preferences. I mean the rules are pretty much written down when it comes to Dex/SPD for characters.

 

The GM sets the minimum DEX/SPD and the maximum DEX/SPD (thus giving an campaign average).

 

There is a disadvantage that is called Normal Characteristics Maximum. There are rules on how this works. Hey guess what in a Superheroic Game if this disadvantage isn't taken then a character isn't considered 'Normal". WOW!!! Imagine that.

 

A cop that works a beat doesn't have this disadvantage? He's not normal.

 

A shield-slinging, flag-wearing hero does have the disadvantage? He's normal.

 

The cool thing about the Hero System is just how adaptable the game is without having to add new rules every time they publish a book (god how I loathe 3.5 D&D). The Hero System let's a Game Master do whatever he needs to do to set the feel of the game he wants to run.

[Vondy]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Judo is NOT a derivative of Aikido...

 

Thank you.

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

But I have players who come to me with complaints about other players all the time. I'm not a gamemaster anymore. I'm a therapist and a creative consultant.

That's a fundamental lack of communication and cooperation between your players. No more, no less.

 

In our campaign we've found that having players talk with each other, a willingness to acknowledge and protect each character's schtick, and a bit of common sense go a long way. We have out-of-game get-togethers on a fairly regular basis specifically to address these kinds of issues. It's worked pretty well for 15 years now.

[assault]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

There is a disadvantage that is called Normal Characteristics Maximum. There are rules on how this works. Hey guess what in a Superheroic Game if this disadvantage isn't taken then a character isn't considered 'Normal".

 

I think that is a misreading. "Normal" is a matter of character concept, not of rules mechanisms.

 

Of course, this gets into a discussion of what "Normal" means...

 

I personally prohibit characters in superheroic settings from taking NCM.

[ParagonAlpha]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

I think that is a misreading. "Normal" is a matter of character concept, not of rules mechanisms.

 

Of course, this gets into a discussion of what "Normal" means...

 

I personally prohibit characters in superheroic settings from taking NCM.

 

I totally disagree with it being a misreading. But I will agree that it is a matter of character concept. But characters concepts ultimately need to fit within the game mechanics.

 

If you look at comic characters like Batman you are presented with two distinct characters (especially during the late 80's and ear;y 90's when the industry was trying to give the movie fans comics that they could relate to).

 

Batman has two personaes, one is the "Dark Knight Detective", a grim, stalker of the night using his deductive skills, determination and physical training to bring in bad guys who are bent on psychopathic destruction.

 

The other is the "World's Greatest Detective" partners' with Superman in some of the "finest" stories written, a member of the "new gods" (Yay Grant Morrison) of the modern world, the Justice League.

 

In the first incarnation Batman is a peek physical human, with decent training, a few talents that give him a great combat edge, and millions of dollars to buy and develop gadgets. (This Batman would have a 20 Dex/ 4 SPD, a few points of Lighting Reflexes, 10-15 points of martial arts, a decent amount of skills, with tons of Knowledge SKills (yay Complimentary Skills), some CSL's and lot's of wealthy (where does he get those wonderful toys?) Easily built with 150-175 points.)

 

The second incarnation Batman is a peek physical human, with decent training, a few talents that give him a great combat edge, and millions of dollars to buy and develop gadgets. (This Batman would have a 26 Dex/6-7 SPD, a lot of talents that give him a bit of combat edge, 20-30 points of martial arts, skills to reflect his knowledges (I'd almost allow a VPP: Skills only), CSL's all over the place, a Gadget Pool and some vehicles and bases (yay for doubling).

 

Either one is a viable and authentic build of the character. The problem is the game setting. If you bring the first one to a standard Superheroic game he won't have his toys, be heavily outmatched in almost all situations and basically get beat down like a red-headed stepchild (apologizes to red-headed stepchildren). The second one, in a Heroic Game, is a god of biblical proportions.

 

Players need to realize that regardless what concept they want to play it MUST fit within the guidelines given by the GM.

[Balabanto]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

At least this company isn't publishing a "Rules Compendium' seven years after the game has been issued as a SEPARATE MANUAL.

 

Check out the audacity of wizards and realize just how much better Hero System is.

 

Quite frankly, after reading the Pathfinder setup, I'm wondering just how long it is before Wizards drops D+D completely and sells the rights to Paizo.

[assault]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

In the first incarnation Batman is a peek physical human' date=' with decent training, a few talents that give him a great combat edge, and millions of dollars to buy and develop gadgets. (This Batman would have a 20 Dex/ 4 SPD, a few points of Lighting Reflexes, 10-15 points of martial arts, a decent amount of skills, with tons of Knowledge SKills (yay Complimentary Skills), some CSL's and lot's of wealthy (where does he get those wonderful toys?) Easily built with 150-175 points.)[/quote']

 

I dispute that this character could be built on 150-175 points, even if he doesn't have to pay points for his equipment.

 

I've done a frame by frame analysis of the first Batman story in Detective Comics #27 ("The Case of the Chemical Syndicate"), and concluded that the character presented in that story alone is in the 150-200 point range. My guess was 200 - I've compared notes with someone who plausibly argued 150.

 

As soon as you start adding other stories into the mix - especially the origin stories, and the ones showing Robin's training - the points keep adding up and up.

 

And that's just the 1939-1941 version of the character!

 

The modern version has a lot more to pay for, even without his equipment.

 

More importantly, of course, there is no reason at all to limit even the Golden Age version to NCM-range values, aside from shaving points.

 

I ban NCM precisely because it encourages such ideas.

 

I suppose I should recreate my 200 point Batman and post him. I've been considering doing it anyway. If he paid points for his equipment, he would work out at around 250 points, and be a perfectly playable character in that range.

 

A 350 point version would be hard work, since I would have to design things like the Bat-Plane.

[gojira]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

"Normal" is a matter of character concept' date=' not of rules mechanisms.[/quote']

 

Nice, me like! Repped!

[assault]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

I wrote:

I suppose I should recreate my 200 point Batman and post him.

 

I've gotten to the "back of the envelope" stage. He's on 265 points, although there is lots of scope for trimming. 200 is quite plausible.

 

This is without paying for his equipment, and is essentially based on Detective Comics #27 and #33 - his first appearance and the first version of his origin, respectively. #38 is also interesting, since it describes at least some of Robin's training - acrobatics, boxing and Jiu Jitsu.

 

Because I have focussed so narrowly on these three stories, I have left out a lot of skills that would normally be included.

 

As far as his characteristics go, he is described as having "train(ed) his body to physical perfection until he is able to perform amazing athletic feats". Basically, that could justify pretty much any characteristics you want to give him. Certainly, most of his physical could be at around the 20 mark, and you could probably push a few over that. 26 Dex and 6 Spd would be entirely legitimate, although 20 and 4 would be preferable in a point-shaved version.

 

While, as I have suggested, a basic version of the character could be managed in the 200-250 point range, you could easily expand it to 350 or even 450 points. What is really interesting about this is that you can build a quite legitimate version of the contemporary version of Superman in the 350-450 point range too....

 

It's a shame Batman and Superman weren't really a team in the Golden Age until quite late.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

I wrote:

 

 

I've gotten to the "back of the envelope" stage. He's on 265 points, although there is lots of scope for trimming. 200 is quite plausible.

 

This is without paying for his equipment, and is essentially based on Detective Comics #27 and #33 - his first appearance and the first version of his origin, respectively. #38 is also interesting, since it describes at least some of Robin's training - acrobatics, boxing and Jiu Jitsu.

 

Because I have focussed so narrowly on these three stories, I have left out a lot of skills that would normally be included.

 

As far as his characteristics go, he is described as having "train(ed) his body to physical perfection until he is able to perform amazing athletic feats". Basically, that could justify pretty much any characteristics you want to give him. Certainly, most of his physical could be at around the 20 mark, and you could probably push a few over that. 26 Dex and 6 Spd would be entirely legitimate, although 20 and 4 would be preferable in a point-shaved version.

 

While, as I have suggested, a basic version of the character could be managed in the 200-250 point range, you could easily expand it to 350 or even 450 points. What is really interesting about this is that you can build a quite legitimate version of the contemporary version of Superman in the 350-450 point range too....

 

It's a shame Batman and Superman weren't really a team in the Golden Age until quite late.

 

Based on my brief exposure to those characters, the original versions of Batman and Superman seem like they could have been played in the same 250 point Golden Age Champions campaign. One is a basic brick (he didn't even really fly then). The other is a basic martial artist with skills if you allow him to buy most of his equipment with money, which I believe would work just fine in a Golden Age setting.

[assault]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Based on my brief exposure to those characters' date=' the original versions of Batman and Superman seem like they could have been played in the same 250 point Golden Age Champions campaign. One is a basic brick (he didn't even really fly then).[/quote']

 

250 is too few points for Superman, IMHO. You can do it, but it requires cutting too many corners.

 

His movement powers were pretty impressive right from the start, and his "nothing short of a bursting shell" invulnerability sucks up points pretty fiercely too.

 

Superboy is another story.

 

In general, I find ~350 points "just right" for most starting Golden Age characters. Any fewer and they just don't feel right. A few characters have to strain to fill out the total, and some others need more points, but it's a good happy medium.

 

Allowing Batman to buy his gear with money is a bit rough on the characters who can't do that, incidentally. Of course, his original equipment list consisted of a car and a rope, so I guess you could justify it...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

250 is too few points for Superman' date=' IMHO. You [i']can[/i] do it, but it requires cutting too many corners.

 

His movement powers were pretty impressive right from the start, and his "nothing short of a bursting shell" invulnerability sucks up points pretty fiercely too.

 

Remember that the original was "faster than a speeding bullet", but not "faster that the speed of light", "more powerful than a locomotive", but not "capable of moving a planet with his bare hands", "nothing short of a bursting shell" could penetrate his skin, but that bursting shell COULD, so it would do BOD damage and he was "able to leap tall buildings in a single bound", but not capable of independent flight.

 

So he's got a higher than normal SPD and movement, a high STR in the bounds for a Brick, has decent defenses and damage resistance, but can still be hurt, and has some Superleap and some noncombat multiples or minor Megascale.

 

He doesn't have the suite of sensory powers, ability to travel in time or heat vision, for example, that have developed in subsequent years. And he probably gets by on "everyman" skills - he wasn't even a great reporter, just riding on his ability to get a jump on Superman stories. And look at the art - even his COM rises over the years!

 

Allowing Batman to buy his gear with money is a bit rough on the characters who can't do that' date=' incidentally. Of course, his original equipment list consisted of a car and a rope, so I guess you could justify it...[/quote']

 

I agree with this - if you let money buy anything. As you note, early Bats had limited equipment, so he buys some Focused Swinging, maybe some Climb bonuses through a rope, a flashlight and maybe a couple of other fairly low tech gizmos. The car is a "maybe" - it wasn't typically used for anything besides getting from point A to point B, but it was clearly used as Batman. But it didn't have smoke bombs, armor plating and weaponry systems - it was a fast car in the bounds of 1940's reality, if pushing the fringes.

[Bloodstone]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

I'm with Hugh on this one. I'm pretty sure I could make a good Superman on 250-300 points and I wouldn't really need to cut anything. He's only got maybe four super powers initially, five if you count his crazy good balance. Most of those powers are low key by modern standards. His movement capabilities would be the most expensive thing about him, and that could be taken care of with NCM and/or a multipower (or possibly +X" Running, Usable as Leaping).