NO everyman skills

[JmOz]

Ok, I keep forgeting in some character posts to talk about this house rule I have, and I thought I would share and see people's opinions

 

I have gotten rid of Everyman skills for free

 

In exchange the player gets an additional 25 points, and there is a recomended Everyman package deal

 

Here is the current Package Deal for my champions game

 

Cost Skill

1 Acting 8-

1 Climbing 8-

1 Concealment 8-

1 Conversation 8-

1 Deduction 8-

1 KS: Homeland 8-

3 KS: Common Knowledge (INT-based) 11-

2 KS 11-

1 KS 8-

4 Language: Native (idiomatic)

1 Paramedics 8-

1 Persuasion 8-

2 PS 11-

1 Shadowing 8-

1 Stealth 8-

1 TF: Common Motorized Ground Vehicles

1 Combat Driving 8-

1 Teamwork 8-

Skills Cost: 25

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

Interesting idea. Looks good for a Champions game, though in real life, I'm positive that not everyone has 1 point in Combat Driving.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

I'm a big fan of Everyman Skills m'self; it saves me a lot of mental bookkeeping, and I'm stingy with my points anyway. I can't imagine what my players would do with 25 more points.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

Actually, an interesting variation might be to create several 25-point "normal person" archetypes, and let players choose one for their character. For example, the Perpetual Student type might have extra KS's, but no PS's. Or a Working Man type might have extra PS's but no KS's. The Sheltered Life type might not have KS: Common Knowledge. KS: Homeland, Acting, Conversation, or Persuasion, but has other KS's. And so on.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

Actually' date=' an interesting variation might be to create several 25-point "normal person" archetypes, and let players choose one for their character. For example, the Perpetual Student type might have extra KS's, but no PS's. Or a Working Man type might have extra PS's but no KS's. The Sheltered Life type might not have KS: Common Knowledge. KS: Homeland, Acting, Conversation, or Persuasion, but has other KS's. And so on.[/quote']

 

Now that DOES make sense to me. More work than I'd feel like doing off the top, but I like the premise. Rep if I can.

[Nevenall]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

I like it very much. Plus, I can sell off one or two and replace them to better fit my character's background.

[ghost-angel]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

While I've been in games like this, with little issue...

 

Everyman Skills represent something that just about anyone can do, learns in childhood or can try.

Anyone can TRY and talk to people to learn stuff (Conversation), anyone can LOOK for things or TRY and hide them (Concealment), etc. . .

 

I think removing Everyman is a generally bad idea.

 

I do think creating Background Everyman Groups is a better idea. Adjust for cultures, upbringing, and things like that. Derek's suggestion hits the nail on the head on my thoughts here.

[Sean Waters]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

I think that combining JMOz's idea with Derek's refinement makes for a really useful character building tool, a proper package deal, depending on background/career, in effect. That's very exciting indeed, and could really make a difference to character creation in that you pick wheere you start.

 

Nice, nice, very nice.

[Akiva]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

I like this, as well. It's very Rolemaster-y which appeals to the part of me that really likes Rolemaster.

[Kenn]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

I don't like it. In theory it's a zero sum situation and it should make no difference. Saying "you should pay points" for all of your skills I can understand, and then saying "here are points to pay for the 'formerly-everman' skills" means there's no real change.

 

But unless the gamemaster is really carefully policing... a player could buy 19 pts. worth of the stuff from the above package, skimp on the rest, the GM wouldn't necassarily notice that a few items weren't included, and you end up with a character who can't solve a simple puzzle (no 8 or less Deduction) or some other silliness.

 

Everyman skills means there's a default everyone has, that there's no benefit for skimping on or anything. I could see allowing some swapping out of one 0 pt. Everyman skill for another (e.g. a character who is only 14, who doesn't have the everyman Transport Familiarity yet, could get Computer Programming at 8 or less since computers are taught early these days) with GM permission. But making them zero cost removes the temptation to fiddle with them unless it's actually in character.

[Sean Waters]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

I don't like it. In theory it's a zero sum situation and it should make no difference. Saying "you should pay points" for all of your skills I can understand, and then saying "here are points to pay for the 'formerly-everman' skills" means there's no real change.

 

But unless the gamemaster is really carefully policing... a player could buy 19 pts. worth of the stuff from the above package, skimp on the rest, the GM wouldn't necassarily notice that a few items weren't included, and you end up with a character who can't solve a simple puzzle (no 8 or less Deduction) or some other silliness.

 

Everyman skills means there's a default everyone has, that there's no benefit for skimping on or anything. I could see allowing some swapping out of one 0 pt. Everyman skill for another (e.g. a character who is only 14, who doesn't have the everyman Transport Familiarity yet, could get Computer Programming at 8 or less since computers are taught early these days) with GM permission. But making them zero cost removes the temptation to fiddle with them unless it's actually in character.

 

 

Agreed that if people are going to use their everyman points for +25 strength (Hey - I spent all my time training, man) it isn't going to work, but if the GM were to use the points to build a few camapign appropriate Everyman skill packages from which the players could chose, this could be a really useful tool. After all, not everyone knows how to drive a car.

 

One thing that has always concerned me: if I have an everyman skill, say Conversation, why do I have to pay 3 points to make it into a full blown PRE skill, not just 2 to move it from familiarity to full blown skill? Surely it should be easier to learn skills appropriate to your society and upbringing?

[JmOz]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

Agreed that if people are going to use their everyman points for +25 strength (Hey - I spent all my time training, man) it isn't going to work, but if the GM were to use the points to build a few camapign appropriate Everyman skill packages from which the players could chose, this could be a really useful tool. After all, not everyone knows how to drive a car.

 

One thing that has always concerned me: if I have an everyman skill, say Conversation, why do I have to pay 3 points to make it into a full blown PRE skill, not just 2 to move it from familiarity to full blown skill? Surely it should be easier to learn skills appropriate to your society and upbringing?

 

Which points out that it is not exactly a 0 sum, which is 1/2 of where the idea came from, because as a house rule I have allowed exactly what sean brings up here.

 

Depending on how open the doros to contributing to the game world are (Can PC's create alien characters or does the GM give a list of aliens) influences how much I let them modify it by

[Killer Shrike]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

Most campaigns, anything above say 150 points, I ignore Everyman Skills. I just don't care enough to force rolls for petty stuff like that. Common sense rule applies as to what kinds of things a character can reasonably be assumed to do, and if a roll becomes necessary I'd rather rely on suitably modified stat rolls for things like that rather than a bunch of flat 8- skills anyway.

 

 

In low point games however, they can be useful, and different sets of Everyman skills offer customization opportunities while working with fewer overall resources.

[Fitz]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

I have the exact opposite attitude -- I use them precisely so that we don't have to hand-wave what people know or don't know. The Everyman list I use for my campaign gives everyone a clearly defined basis to work from, and more importantly, it means that I know that someone will have the skill the entire campaign hinges on

[ghost-angel]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

Incidentally... the Last Dominion from Pencil Pushers Publishing is an excellent example of creating Cultural Everyman Groups for Players to choose from.

[Ocelot]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

One thing that has always concerned me: if I have an everyman skill' date=' say Conversation, why do I have to pay 3 points to make it into a full blown PRE skill, not just 2 to move it from familiarity to full blown skill? Surely it should be easier to learn skills appropriate to your society and upbringing?[/quote']

 

 

I feel this is what makes it a house rule, because otherwise, it's actually in the rulebook.

 

Since HERO allows you to sell back Everyman Skills (IIRC), then effectively, every character has those points to spend and by default spends them on the Everyman Skill Package. But you could sell them back and buy other skills.

 

BUT, HERO requires you to spend full points on skills that you already have at the Everyman Level. For a combat detective type character, who planned on buying Acting, Climbing, Concealment, Conversation, Deduction, Paramedics, Persuasion, Shadowing, Stealth and Combat Driving, (deep breath...) JmOz's House Rule is effectively giving them 10 free points.

[Markdoc]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

I do think creating Background Everyman Groups is a better idea. Adjust for cultures' date=' upbringing, and things like that. Derek's suggestion hits the nail on the head on my thoughts here.[/quote']

 

This is what I do for my FH game: different areas have different "everyman" packages available (for example Dymeria - a civilised place - offers Noble, Priest, Serf, Townsman and Villager, while the rugged Olmai coast offers Hunter/gatherer, Fisherman/Sailor, Priest and Villager).

 

These packages are pretty basic, but define what's general knowledge for the general population and by default, any PC whose player chooses that background. If someone wants an alternative background, I swap out the skills with appropriate ones.

 

Saves book-keeping, but provides the basic skills that everyone has. I'm a bit leery of getting rid of everyman skills. If a player chooses not to take (for example) climbing even as an everyman, does that mean they can't get stuff off the high shelf or use a ladder? Or can they climb, but not real well - in which case they got a free point and the game has defaulted to having everyman skills. Likewise, if you insist that people must take the basic skills, (climbing, conversation, etc) then I'm not sure that it's any different from having everyman skills. Why not skip the extra stage and simply say "These are everyman skills. You get them at 8-. I'm giving an extra 10 points only to buy FAM.s with other appropriate background skills as you see fit."

 

cheers, Mark

[Trebuchet]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

For a combat detective type character' date=' who planned on buying Acting, Climbing, Concealment, Conversation, Deduction, Paramedics, Persuasion, Shadowing, Stealth and Combat Driving, (deep breath...) JmOz's House Rule is effectively giving them 10 free points.[/quote']I'd be more than happy to "let" a character do that if it means he builds a good well rounded detective character. For one thing, Skill-based characters are relatively expensive in Hero even in a Champions game. It's usually cheaper to just build a combat machine and combat capabilities often have a lot more instant gratification.

 

Character design isn't supposed to be some sort of contest between the GM and players. It's a way to mutually build adventures. If what amounts to custom-built Everyman Skills with an additional 25 CP help the players build more interesting and/or better rounded characters, then it's an excellent idea. In a group of munchkins it might be a bad idea, but with good players it'll be better for everyone.

[JmOz]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

I'd be more than happy to "let" a character do that if it means he builds a good well rounded detective character. For one thing, Skill-based characters are relatively expensive in Hero even in a Champions game. It's usually cheaper to just build a combat machine and combat capabilities often have a lot more instant gratification.

 

Character design isn't supposed to be some sort of contest between the GM and players. It's a way to mutually build adventures. If what amounts to custom-built Everyman Skills with an additional 25 CP help the players build more interesting and/or better rounded characters, then it's an excellent idea. In a group of munchkins it might be a bad idea, but with good players it'll be better for everyone.

 

THere is also an interesting thing I have found with it, it helps to note characters who have been "optimised for the greater enjoyment of all the players during combat situations" (Yes a player has said that to me before). If you see that alot of the everyman skills have not been taken it sends a flag up, not conclusive, but it is a warning bell

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

I like this' date=' as well. It's very Rolemaster-y which appeals to the part of me that really likes Rolemaster.[/quote']

 

Its the fluffy kitten torturing part, right?

 

 

Not that I know anything about that part.

[JmOz]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

Been doing this for a while now and has really worked well for me

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

While I've been in games like this, with little issue...

 

Everyman Skills represent something that just about anyone can do, learns in childhood or can try.

Anyone can TRY and talk to people to learn stuff (Conversation), anyone can LOOK for things or TRY and hide them (Concealment), etc. . .

 

I think removing Everyman is a generally bad idea.

 

I'm very much in agreement with this. Everyman skills are free for a reason: mainly because there's no normal rationale for any character not being able to do these things. I could see an unusual character who's "challenged" in some way that he isn't capable of performing certain skills at all being allowed to 'sell them off' and spend the points elsewhere, but why make such a rare exception into a general rule?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

Since HERO allows you to sell back Everyman Skills (IIRC), then effectively, every character has those points to spend and by default spends them on the Everyman Skill Package. But you could sell them back and buy other skills.

Err, anyone have any reference, from any edition, to this actually being true? I sure don't remember it. In 5ER Everyman Skills are presented as an option, not the default, and I sure don't remember anything about being allowed to sell them back.

[lemming]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

Err' date=' anyone have any reference, from any edition, to this actually being true? I sure don't remember it. In 5ER Everyman Skills are presented as an option, not the default, and I sure don't remember anything about being allowed to sell them back.[/quote']

 

I think some people have tried to sell them back and most GMs said no. There are complications that could nullify some everyman skills and in previous editions would be kind of like selling them back. (And really, you could get more points that way if you play your cards right...)

[JmOz]

Re: NO everyman skills

 

there is in the (well 5th, and 4th, not sure about other editions) book a bit that if you do not have the everyman in question you can get 1 point for it.