penemue Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Warner Brothers is pumping the Dark Knight money into the next Superman Project called Superman: Man of Steel. http://io9.com/5040723/warner-brothers-takes-the-time-to-make-a-superman-that-wont-suck It's interesting that there seems to be a real desire to darken big blue. I've noticed my Champions campaign has kind of gone in the opposite direction, taking more of a cue from the Justice League Unlimited series than The Watchmen. What about your campaigns? Have you felt a need to give em darkness and grit things up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories I Already posted in the NGD forum but thanks:thumbup: Justice league TAS is definitely the superior way to go also IMO. Our own game's superhero world takes it tone form the the TAS stuff. My personal favorite take on the characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories I think I do prefer a darker tone than the "average"* Champions fan or maybe less idealized as I want the heroes to be Heroic, trying to to do the right things but they don't have to be paladins or flawless and have a human side to them: loves, hates, vices and virtues, etc and a bit more "real world" in the setting. OTOH, the over the top cynicism and there's only "bad guys and worse guys" shades of black style supers stories don't appeal to me much either. *assuming it exists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories I'm actually running a totally four-color game for the first time, after being primarily dark for ages. Either I'm behind the curve or ahead of it, or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories I hope you're ahead but doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories I'd like there to be a range of different types of stories for a wide range of fans. As long as I find stories that I like I'm good with others having their fun too. Like Marvel 616/Ultimate divide. If they'd just stop trying to darken 616. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories I really hope they don't ruin Superman for a generation of comic book fans. Superman is the big blue boy scout. He's always a good guy, and his goodness has to be REALLY good. Superman has to retain his ideals in the face of everything, because he's Superman. Deepak Chopra should shut the hell up and learn to love Truth and Justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories Ok, to keep this appropriate to this forum (Which is about Champions RP) I'm going to answer the question about gaming style... I'm definitely a bronze or silver age (Better yet, Tarnished silver) kind of guy. I want my heroes to be heroic, not just super powered (for those that have powers) but actually BETTER people than I am. They can have flaws, they can make mistakes, but in the end, they do the right thing, and they come out as a person I can respect. This in mind, I often mix in more whimsical elements in my game to off set darker villains or plots a bit. Foxbat is a favorite of mine (if not always my players) for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories Then again, one story line I'm doing in a days of future past sort of way is damn grim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories Our 15-year-old Champions campaign has always been unabashedly 4-color. We roleplay as escapism. The real world is depressing enough; why would anyone want to role-play in a make-believe world that's worse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories Ok, to keep this appropriate to this forum (Which is about Champions RP) I'm going to answer the question about gaming style... I'm definitely a bronze or silver age (Better yet, Tarnished silver) kind of guy. I want my heroes to be heroic, not just super powered (for those that have powers) but actually BETTER people than I am. They can have flaws, they can make mistakes, but in the end, they do the right thing, and they come out as a person I can respect. This in mind, I often mix in more whimsical elements in my game to off set darker villains or plots a bit. Foxbat is a favorite of mine (if not always my players) for example. Then again' date=' one story line I'm doing in a days of future past sort of way is damn grim.[/quote'] Grim, yes -- but I wouldn't consider it Iron-age stuff either. Which is something I don't think the average Hollywood type is capable of understanding when it comes to a character like Superman... You can put Supes in a 'dark' story and still have Superman (Darkseid comes to mind, though there are probably others. I wasn't enough of a DC reader to make a comprehensive list of the possible). What you can't do is make Superman dark, and be true to the character. The 'Justice Lords' version of Superman isn't something I want to see as the default presentation, but I've long ago come to the realization that I'm not the target market for Hollywood or the comic industry. In my own games, I definitely tend to the 'dark' but I prefer my heroes be heroes when all is said and done. I may throw out some bad guys capable and willing of doing some truly nasty stuff, I also try to include NPCs from the opposite spectrum as something more than just candles to be snuffed out. 'Realistic' for me means that just as there are some really bad people out there, there are also some really good people too -- and not just the PCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories Our 15-year-old Champions campaign has always been unabashedly 4-color. We roleplay as escapism. The real world is depressing enough; why would anyone want to role-play in a make-believe world that's worse? Easy answer. To make it better... In the 'real' world, I can read the paper and swear about it. Maybe write a letter, or something in response depending on what it is... In the campaign world, I get to punch it. Repeatedly even. Mind, this is based on my version of 'dark' where you can actually try to make a difference rather than just reload for more of the same next session. Obviously everyone has their own preferred genre and setting style, so ymmv. I'm not sure I could play Golden Age, but I've also been told I tend towards the cynical... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Certified Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories Our 15-year-old Champions campaign has always been unabashedly 4-color. We roleplay as escapism. The real world is depressing enough; why would anyone want to role-play in a make-believe world that's worse? Ask a White Wolf Player... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Certified Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories Okay, real reply: The tone and feel of the world should be one that all players are comfortable with. There are some people who feel that the GM sets the tone and the mood of the campaign but I don't agree with that. A GM can set up scenes and try to create a feel for the game but the players are going to have an impact on this from the character they play and how they play them to the personality of the player all these factors "should" effect the overall game. One of the things I think is important is for players to discuss the themes and mood of the campaign when creating characters. This may help to smooth out rough edges and the trying to fit a cube in the circle that happens when GMs and Players don't express what they would like to do in a campaign. As for games I'm currently playing I would not call either of them dark. The game on Hero Central is really just getting into full swing and although I think the campaign could go dark, right now the game is leaning more episodic with tie ins to past story lines so I think it has a more four Color feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psybolt Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories Grim, yes -- but I wouldn't consider it Iron-age stuff either. Which is something I don't think the average Hollywood type is capable of understanding when it comes to a character like Superman... You can put Supes in a 'dark' story and still have Superman (Darkseid comes to mind, though there are probably others. I wasn't enough of a DC reader to make a comprehensive list of the possible). What you can't do is make Superman dark, and be true to the character. The 'Justice Lords' version of Superman isn't something I want to see as the default presentation, but I've long ago come to the realization that I'm not the target market for Hollywood or the comic industry. I agree with this. To do anything else, would be a betrayal of the character. As for what I prefer, I like the complicated characters with definite rings of tragedy in their background. I am not a Superman fan. I don't like the big boy scout character. But my favorite character have a nice mix. Spider-man has a terrible tragedy in his background (Uncle Ben's murder), but he is a great heroic character. Spidey would go out of his way to save the life of a villain trying to kill him. That's my preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penemue Posted August 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories When I bought my first B&W cover copy of Champions I had a schism in my role playing group. The first real game I created a consistent campaign for was Gamma World, which is dark to be sure. I was constantly tweaking the rules, even trying to run it as a superhero game (with the mutations), but it just wasn't right. Half of my gaming group really had a hard time jumping on the superhero bandwagon. (1981) They felt it was too corny. I hadn't really read many superhero comics since the early 70s so I picked a few up. I was very excited about running Champions, but I had been sort of out of the comic book loop. I started to buy up back issues of X-men and Teen Titans and enjoyed them immensely, but found real meat in Daredevil at the time (Frank Miller's run). All of this made an impact on the kind of universe I wanted to create. I remember reading in Champions 2 in the great Campaigning Champions article and getting a sense that this was a sort of old fashioned idea of the superhero, but that was fine with me. I tried to pull in the darker, more complex personality-driven stories that were out at the time into a four colour universe. My first campaign adventures were actually about the fall of a Silver Age supergroup and the players were there to be the 'next generation' of supers. I never really thought about it as abstractly, of course, but it seemed like a good place to start. It's funny that some of you have also gone more four-colour as real comics have been getting darker. I just don't know if I could run a very dark campaign, however my players would disagree. I ran an adventure last week where everyone in a sanitarium was killed by an insane ghost. That's H.P. Lovecraft dark. But in the same adventure, one hero (a disorderly orderly in his secret ID) fell off the porch into the bushes, ran like a coward (and it's a good thing he did), dropped his keys down the sewer during a rainstorm and generally turned what could have been a really dark and scary adventure into Abbot and Costello meet the Monster. Even my players won't let me darken things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories I'm not sure where my game is in the spectrum. I had some pretty dark elements villain wise ( Cthulhu worshipers, Vampire gods etc.) but the heroes while they are rounded out flawed characters are larger than life heroic when it comes down to the crunch. Even most bad decisions come from trying to do the right thing. There are no heroes who enjoy killing or have iron age feet of clay. I take many of my bits and inspirations from the pulps actually with a very heavy dash of the TAS series ( Superman, Justice League, Justice league unlimited etc.) almost nothing ever from modern comics unless its to "fix" a story and get it right but that's really only happened once. My players want to play real heroic larger than life characters that although not perfect they could look up to or aspire to their heroism. Major NPC allies they mostly hold up to the same light. They have pretty much zero tolerance for iron age anything so none in our games. We want to have fun not be stressed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories I've been listening to the 1940s Superman radio shows lately, and I'm a long time fan of the Golden Age comics as well as Superman's most direct pulp era ancestors. Many of his early adventures were direct lifts from (or "homages" to) Gladiator (Hugo Danner), Doc Savage, and even the Shadow and the Spider. There's plenty of room for Superman as an idealistic man in a dark and complex world, without violating the integrity of the character. My favorite Superman stories may be Silver Age silliness, but the character can certainly go much deeper than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories I've always been a more optimistic gamer than dystopic. Since I started gaming, I've always felt that a hero should help define the setting, and the groups of heroes should be examples. Back in the early 90s, I used to have players get ticked at me when they'd nuke a van full of criminals, killing them all, and then be held accountable for that. They didn't need to kill them ... and how does that make them any different than the villains they fight? The only time that a player should be unheroic, is when they're playing the bad guys And, while I do run a villain game, I'm more comfortable running heroic games. With the new Superman movie, if they make him a beacon of peace in the cesspool that may be Metropolis, then I'm good with that. If they make him brooding and destructive ... I'll take the same stance I did with Superman Returns - Won't watch it, won't bother with it. As a side note, I'm hoping they'll get Clancy Brown to play Luthor ... I think he'd do the part some justice Oh, and can we have a Superman in good shape? No plastic/rubber muscle suit please ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories My last superhero game was purely Silver/Bronze. The was (in a 15 year game) one situation where killing was O.K. I indroduced PSI and made them as nasty as I could. The PSI/Watchtower war was legendary in the game, and it was a plot I ran specifically to have the characters decide what to do when they ran up against an opponent that didn't follow the unwritten rules. It was the "dark graphic novel" in a normal comic book, if you will. In any game I GM I insist on at least 15 points of Code Vs Killing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParagonAlpha Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories If WB has any sense they will hire Kevin Smith to do Superman. And do it his way. Superman does not need to be dark or edgy. Superman needs to be about idealism and hope. Yes it sounds kind of cheesy, but they don't need a complex script to make Superman work (look at Superman 2). Though I think Lex Luthor is a great nemesis for Supes, they need to step away from that route. Superman vs. Brainiac is probably the best path to go, with a reboot. Have Lex be a secondary character, foreshadow his true evil for a sequel (and god forbid have him have a better "master plan" then real estate prices). Heck with Brainiac you could have several 'lesser' Superman villains in the film all being manipulated by Brainiac. A Superman movie needs to be bigger than life, kind of like Raider's of the Lost Ark big. A series of little things that combined are Epic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted August 26, 2008 Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories Ask a White Wolf Player... The problem is, many of the WW players I've known are convinced that the game is an accurate depiction* of humanity in the real world. "Everyone's an @$$, everything is a lie, listen to Bauhaus, do drugs and die!" * -- Save for the supernatural stuff, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 26, 2008 Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories * -- Save for the supernatural stuff, I think. varies from player to player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted August 26, 2008 Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories * -- Save for the supernatural stuff, I think. What?! Man does my WW group and I need to have a talk And to think ... I almost drank the kool-aid ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penemue Posted August 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 Re: Superman Begins and Darker Superhero Stories Oh man, all this WW slagging. Truth is, I ran a few superhero campaigns using WW as well as an Arthurian in modern age trilogy I'm very proud of and I even ran an original Space Opera game and wrote my own mecha rules for WW before I started actually writing for GOO. When I started getting the GOO books I switched things over to that system. I hated WW's campaign setting, but some fool with lots of time on his hands put a mutant (a la xmen) site up for WW rules. It was jolly good fun. When Fifth Ed. Hero came out I jumped at the chance to switch things over. So I still have fond WW memories, though I don't know if I'd run the system again. Botches anyone? I love Bauhaus.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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