Split Decision Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 If I wasnt to build a character who is master of several martial arts, and some of them overlap, do I have to buy the same Martial Maneuver multiple times, defining it as different things each time, or is there another thing I need to do, such as some sort of Variable SFX Advantage, to connote the different ways the character can execute the Martial Maneuver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts 30 Natural Born Warrior: Multipower, 30-point reserve, (30 Active Points) 2u 1) Accurate Strike: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6 (30 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) - END=3 2u 2) Lethal Strikes: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (4d6 w/STR) (30 Active Points) - END=3 2u 3) It's All in the Reflexes: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Adjacent Hex (+1/2) (30 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs Physcial Attacks (-1) - END=0 2u 4) Economical Strength: +30 STR (30 Active Points); Conditional Power Only To Disarm, Escape, & Grab (-1/2), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) - END=3 Telios & Andreus Panterous style QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts If I wasnt to build a character who is master of several martial arts' date=' and some of them overlap, do I have to buy the same Martial Maneuver multiple times, defining it as different things each time, or is there another thing I need to do, such as some sort of Variable SFX Advantage, to connote the different ways the character can execute the Martial Maneuver?[/quote'] You buy each art a KS, then each manuever the arts share count as the move for all of them so 2 KS: Karate 11- 2 KS: Kung Fu 11- 4 Karate Punch, Kung fu Kick (Martial Strike) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrm Ouroboros Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts Going by the technicalities of SF/X, yes, Split, you do. A kind GM will do as JmOz has said. A semi-kind GM will allow you to take VFX (+1/2) on the 'actual' cost (3, 4, 5) of each maneuver, thus adding a point or two to each maneuver to represent all the various things the character can do, and that putting him in handcuffs isn't going to reduce his ability to Martial Grab you.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts Going by the technicalities of SF/X' date=' yes, Split, you do. A kind GM will do as JmOz has said. A semi-kind GM will allow you to take VFX (+1/2) on the 'actual' cost (3, 4, 5) of each maneuver, thus adding a point or two to each maneuver to represent all the various things the character can do, and that putting him in handcuffs isn't going to reduce his ability to Martial Grab you....[/quote'] Mine is from The Ultimate Martial Artist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Split Decision Posted April 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts All of these ideas feel right. For this particular project, Jim's construction feels the rightest- which is not an excuse to spend fewer points. I think TQM's build is worth the point difference, but Jim's is going to work better for this guy. Thank you and don't let me stop the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts I tend to mix and match Martial Maneuvers with a Martial Arts MP. There are some things that mechanically work better for one method or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts You buy each art a KS, then each manuever the arts share count as the move for all of them so 2 KS: Karate 11- 2 KS: Kung Fu 11- 4 Karate Punch, Kung fu Kick (Martial Strike) This is correct. You don't have to repurchase shared maneuvers between multiple styles. Not that it matters, but his even somewhat models reality inasmuch as a master of one style is usually (not always) able to learn elements of another style easier than a noob (though for some this isnt true -- the habits they've learned from one style can interfere with learning the new style). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts I've always assumed that to master two seperate arts, you had to buy 10 pts in each in non-overlapping manuevers - i.e. if you already have a Martial Dodge in Art I you wouldn't buy it again for Art II, you'd buy 10 pts of manuevers in Art II that you don't already have. That's how I've done it before. If that's not possible, then I would probably let you count a manuever for each art, but not make you buy it a second time. I've also done mix and matching with characters that mastered maybe one art, but knew moves from others. Like a certain French Foreign Legionnaire I remember who had studied savatte, wrestling, boxing, and fencing, and remembered bits of all of it, would probably have a hard time passing muster as a "master" of any of them. I might also suggest reducing or even eliminating the Style Disadvantage, especially if you master three or more disciplines. If the Style Disadvantage means anything, it means that someone with the right knowledge can watch your fighting stance and get a good idea what you can and can't do - and if you have multiple fighting styles at your disposal, that simply wouldn't be true. Lucius Alexander Style Disadvantage: Palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts The 10 point Martial Art minimum should be thrown completly out of the window. Real people don't save up points and then buy martial arts in groups of ten. It makes no sense whatsoever. It is the GM's job to sto abusive builds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts The 10 point Martial Art minimum should be thrown completly out of the window. Real people don't save up points and then buy martial arts in groups of ten. It makes no sense whatsoever. It is the GM's job to sto abusive builds. I like the 10pt minimum. Sure it's a mechanics thing, but Martial Arts is just too effective to allow anyone to spend 5 points on a FMove Dodge, or 4 points on a Martial Block because they learned some basic self defense at the Y. The 10 points adds another limitation to some pretty effective "powers" to help balance them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts I believe Dr. Yin Wu from The Dragon Mandarin knows at least 4 different martial art styles, and has several maneuvers that overlap multiple styles. (He also has an exceedingly powerful Dim Mak attack that's bought as a power rather than a maneuver...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapsedgamer Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts You buy each art a KS, then each manuever the arts share count as the move for all of them so 2 KS: Karate 11- 2 KS: Kung Fu 11- 4 Karate Punch, Kung fu Kick (Martial Strike) Yes. Going by the technicalities of SF/X' date=' yes, Split, you do. A kind GM will do as JmOz has said. A semi-kind GM will allow you to take VFX (+1/2) on the 'actual' cost (3, 4, 5) of each maneuver, thus adding a point or two to each maneuver to represent all the various things the character can do, and that putting him in handcuffs isn't going to reduce his ability to Martial Grab you....[/quote'] Way too complicated for my tastes. The SFX question is already answered by the nature of the attack. I roll X dice normal. What's the special effect? My guy is a trained martial artist. There is very little difference between an MA built with martial maneuvers and one built with HTH attacks and levels, or a Multipower, as far as SFX are concerned. The 10 point Martial Art minimum should be thrown completly out of the window. Real people don't save up points and then buy martial arts in groups of ten. It makes no sense whatsoever. It is the GM's job to sto abusive builds. I like the 10pt minimum. Sure it's a mechanics thing' date=' but Martial Arts is just too effective to allow anyone to spend 5 points on a FMove Dodge, or 4 points on a Martial Block because they learned some basic self defense at the Y. The 10 points adds another limitation to some pretty effective "powers" to help balance them out.[/quote'] I believe that the 10-point minimum is designed to model the point at which a martial arts student becomes knowledgeable enough to actually be effective in a fight. This is as opposed to all the strip mall Taekwondo green belts out there with one maneuver, no levels, and an 8- roll on the KS skill. That guy is not going to be a player character unless you are playing a very specific type of campaign. As such, I've never had a problem with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts Well, really... what´s the result of buying several martial arts? It´s not just more manuevers... you can do that within the same martial art. It´s throwing of things like Anyalyze: Fighting Style. So... can you buy defenses against that and just call it a day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Split Decision Posted April 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts It's an authenticity thing. Sure. I could just throw down with a Cosmic VPP, and define it as awesome martial artist skills. But that's both bland and inauthentic. This is a very specific person, and he very specifically is a master of several martial arts. Although buying some sort of resistance to Analyze Martial Arts Style would be hilarious. Kind of like buying a Flash that only affects Bump of Direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapsedgamer Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts Well, really... what´s the result of buying several martial arts? It´s not just more manuevers... you can do that within the same martial art. It´s throwing of things like Anyalyze: Fighting Style. So... can you buy defenses against that and just call it a day? Well, I rarely see the Style Disadvantage used in Champions games, as most folks have some form of the Generic Comic Book Martial Arts package. To me, martial arts styles would come up more often in a heroic level Ninja Hero or Dark Champions game. In a Champions game, since no one has taken a style disadvantage anyway, I would allow the Analyze: Style skill to function normally on everyone. You would just role play it as: "I can tell that you have studied with many different masters and that is unfortunately your weakness. You have not learned enough about X style to adapt your defense to compensate for some of its more subtle weaknesses." THWACK! OR "You have truly mastered X style. I commend you. However, you should really broaden your horizons. If you had some knowledge of Y style, you would have seen this coming." THWACK! When the dice come up right, you have to be ready in either event. It also helps if you can do that thing where your words aren't in synch with your lips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts Fair enough, I´m completely down with that. Just offering another possibility. I personally prefer your way. Also, I really love the idea of a Flash vs. Bump of Direction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrm Ouroboros Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts (Dr. Yin Wu also has an exceedingly powerful Dim Mak attack that's bought as a power rather than a maneuver...) I have a really powerful Dim Sum attack... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbdaury Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts Although buying some sort of resistance to Analyze Martial Arts Style would be hilarious. Kind of like buying a Flash that only affects Bump of Direction. Wasn't there a build out there somewhere for defense vs. Analyze Combat Style through a cape or other long flowing object- sort of a covering of your moves under an object to throw off an opponent? I was pretty sure I saw tha somewhere in an official product somewhere along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts It's an authenticity thing. This is HERO System. By it's very nature there are multiple ways to purchase the same ability. Buying Martial Maneuvers and Damage Classes that Steve has determined represent Boxing is no more authentic than buying Hand Attack dice and some levels with Strike and calling it Boxing. Some ways are easier though, just due to the mechanics involved. Buying Martial Throw, for example, requires a lot less work than attempting to create that maneuver from scratch (though some people have already done the hard work for you...) Although buying some sort of resistance to Analyze Martial Arts Style would be hilarious. Officially, Lack of Weakness makes Analyze: Style rolls harder to perform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Split Decision Posted April 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts Bloodstone, to clarify: I know you can build things with great validity in a hundred different ways. One of the greatest things about this game. It's not a matter of right versus wrong, it's a matter of right versus wrong for this particular guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts If I wasnt to build a character who is master of several martial arts' date=' and some of them overlap, do I have to buy the same Martial Maneuver multiple times, defining it as different things each time, or is there another thing I need to do, such as some sort of Variable SFX Advantage, to connote the different ways the character can execute the Martial Maneuver?[/quote'] The book legal way? hmmm... take the moves you want, then buy KS) the styles you want, now the M/S is a Muey thai kick one phase and a Shoto kan kick the next.... Example: Master of many forms: Scholar (or Expert!) Mar. strike Mar. Kick Mar. Throw Mar. Block Mar. Dodge KS: Shorin ryu, Muey thai, Penjak-silat, Escrima, Judo (5 pts) Total cost 8 pts, plus the moves for umm 28 pts? Buy levels, skills and DC's as needed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts Guess I should have read the thread before answering.... I beleive that you can counter a Analyze style by changing styles via KS's maybe UMA? It also can be helpful for a "Zoro" style martial arts hero..."Don guapo is a TKD guy! El Phantasmo uses Kempo!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Re: Master of Several Martial Arts try using the generic martial arts package and just CALL them by the different arts names Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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