Hero Philosophy - SPEED

[Sean Waters]

It struck me, as I walked the dog this evening, that the choice of SPD for a campaign - especially a superhero campaign - has really quite far reaching implications.

 

In a high SPD game - and by that I mean that most characters have 6+ SPD - it is likely that a substantial number of character points will have to be spent on END management, that +1 SPD means less and less (although it is always useful) and the possibility of running a character who is even vaguely normal human - without stretching the definition beyond its elastic limit - becomes increasingly remote.

 

In a low SPD game, say a superhero game with an expected SPD of 4, there is the possibility of actually getting in a lot more actions than an average character (if you are a speedster): 2 or even 3 times the actions if you can spend the points. Moreover slower characters really do become quite lumbering: the 3 or even 2 SPD brick is at a quite significant disadvantage in dealing (and taking) damage over time, so a GM might be more willing to allow a low SPD character a higher offensive potential.

 

If you think about it from the standpoint of the game itself, creating memorable characters and building what you want rather than what the system dictates you need, low SPD makes real sense.

 

Of course this is somewhat less relevant in most heroic games: SPD tends to be around 3 in most of th eones I've played in - but it does make a change from the norm quite a big thing.

 

This may not be exactly breaking new ground in Hero, but I don't think that considering campaign SPD is necessarily something everyone does (especially when people are building their characters away from the table), and it may be interesting for some.

 

Anyone got any thoughts on SPD int his context, and the consequences of higher or lower averages?

[DocMan]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Some ramblings on SPD.

 

My first character was a Martial artist with a SPD 6. The party ranged in SPD from 4 to 6. My character got a lot of resentment from the players of the SPD 4 characters because to them, my character was ALWAYS going in combat, and they hardly ever got a chance to play. Because that was a high speed character, the GM felt the need to bring in villains that were SPD 7 or 8 which very effectively tore the party up. But that may have been due to our general inexperience.

 

My slowest character was a SPD 2 brick who was literally made of stone. He was a small scrawny fellow, slow, but tremendously strong. The rest of the party was SPD 4 - 5. Now it was my turn to feel like I never got to go in combat. However, I could pretty much push all the time, because I frequently got my post 12 recovery.

 

Most characters have been either SPD 4 or 5. This seems to work best when SPD 4 is considered the max for normal humans, with typical humans at 2 SPD and atheletic humans at 4 SPD. Martial artists top out at 6 SPD, and beyond that is Speedster territory.

 

Pushing the speed curve down has several benefits: characters get recoveries "frequently" and can come back dramatically, lower END levels, and with everyone near the same speed level, they don't resent each other as much during combats.

 

Doc

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I am a big advocate of low-SPD campaigns. For heroic level it just makes sense. For superheroic level it allows agent-types to be a threat and for talented and/or well-equipped "normals" to be superheroes, which broadens the number of character types and backgrounds available. Finally, it just makes accounting easier, because you don't have as many SPDs and as many PHA per SPD to track.

 

I would say that although the most obvious way to make a speedster is with a high SPD, there are lots of alternatives to simulate high SPD, like Autofire attacks, levels to offset Sweep manuever penalties, AoE attacks, and powers bought with "speedster tricks" sfx. The Ultimate Speedster covers the topic well. But the point is you can keep your speedster's SPD fairly low (say 5 or 6) and still have a "fast" character with the flavor you want without resorting to a 9+ SPD.

[lemming]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I do remember once being forced to upgrade my SPD to 5 from 4 since the GM was getting tired of me and the other brick popping out for Pizza between phase 9 & 12. (We had Speeds up to 15 in the game and a large gaming group.)

 

I also played an 11 SPD speedster in one of the other campaigns.

 

I do agree that SPD should be referenced in how powerful the attack potential can be. Especially since often the OCVs are higher.

 

And I'm fine with higher speeds. It allows a more gradual curve than if you have everyone 4-6.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I am a big advocate of low-SPD campaigns.

 

I am too after working on my JLA 350 project.

 

Some of those characters are just not workable in a higher SPD setting.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Often one of my first thoughts is speed. As sort of resident GM/teacher to my gaming group, I deliberately build all the PCs with the same SPD (unless a character concept really calls for, which hasn´t happened yet... but there´s a slim possibility in this latest batch I´m making).

 

It´s simpler, and let´s them just focus on DEX for determining turn order.

[Spence]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I like to categorize game speed with three numbers

 

Fast (high end speed)

Average (regular heroes)

Slow (Bricks and such)

 

My personal preference for a game fall into:

 

Fast 6

Average 5

Slow 4

 

This keeps the supers faster than normal’s but slow enough that they don’t need to bleed points to be ‘fast’,

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I've been a low-speed advocate for a long time. Keeping a rein on SPD makes the game run better.

[DocMan]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

(We had Speeds up to 15 in the game and a large gaming group.)

 

How do you run speeds above 12?

 

Doc

[Spence]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I've been a low-speed advocate for a long time. Keeping a rein on SPD makes the game run better.

 

I hear that.

 

The reason I settled on 5 as the middle ground is I like to use a lot of mooks and this lets the heroes still be super compared to a spd 2 (normal) or spd 3 (highly trained) without slowing things down too much...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Lately, I've been thinking about running a game where SPD is meant to simulate screen time (rather than physical speed or combat savvy, etc.). Because that's often what it feels like in actual play... characters with higher SPDs are "on stage" more often.

 

Give all the PCs the same SPD by default (something like 3 for a mainstream heroic game, 4 for a higher-powered heroic game, 5 for a supers game, etc.). Then give the "star" of that week's episode another point or two of SPD to reflect that he's the focus right now. Obviously, this would vary from story to story, and possibly even from scene to scene, and all the characters would get their chance to be the featured character at various times...

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Great idea and repped.

[Spence]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Lately, I've been thinking about running a game where SPD is meant to simulate screen time (rather than physical speed or combat savvy, etc.). Because that's often what it feels like in actual play... characters with higher SPDs are "on stage" more often.

 

Give all the PCs the same SPD by default (something like 3 for a mainstream heroic game, 4 for a higher-powered heroic game, 5 for a supers game, etc.). Then give the "star" of that week's episode another point or two of SPD to reflect that he's the focus right now. Obviously, this would vary from story to story, and possibly even from scene to scene, and all the characters would get their chance to be the featured character at various times...

 

Neat idea, but how would you actually implement it without having to lead the PC's.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Neat idea' date=' but how would you actually implement it without having to lead the PC's.[/quote']Not sure what you're asking...

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

My campaigns are very low speed. Via a mutual decision to keep things under control, We keep speeds low and on concept.. Speed two for most trained professionals. Three for most heroes and a few elite minions. Four for really bad ass martial artists and spiderman homages. speed five is speedster territory. Everything being relative the 3s,4s and 5s seem quite fast and combat really moves quickly.

[Rapier]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Most of your average SuperHeroic characters are only very, very rarely going to come up against a normal human. If they do come up against a normal human it is more in the vein of a speed bump than an actual encounter.

 

In these cases, a super hero with a SPD of 4 is just as effective as one with a SPD of 8. In the first case, I've designed the villains to have SPDs of 4 (or there abouts). In the latter, the villains have SPDs of about 8. The characters in the second group are going to be no more effective than the first group. The only difference in the amount of points they've spent. That +4 SPD is not only 40 points it's also the boost in the END (to make sure you have enough END to actually survive a turn or two) and the higher REC. This is part of the reason you get higher end (not the Endurance END but the right sight of the scale end) characters that aren't really much more effective than their lower SPD counterparts.

 

The last two games my group has been involved in have been relatively low SPD. SPDs have ranged between 2 and 4. A lot more points are available for powers and skills and the characters save a great deal of points. I haven't yet had a chance, but it might be interesting and rewarding to try a standard 4 colour game with SPD limits set at about 4.

[Spence]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Not sure what you're asking...

 

Well if the points will be used to give more 'screen time' I read thaa as meaning that PC will be more active.

 

So if PC #1 has 3 and PC #2 has 6 then #2 will be the 'star' twice as much and drive the scene.

 

If PC#2 is the wall flower and PC #1 is the rapid fire life of the party then are you going to shut down the roleplayer and force PC#2 to try and roleplay when he is much more comforatable watching and occasionally saying "I shoot x"?

[Kenn]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

When I started my Champions campaign, I tried using the general guidelines the books provided. I did; however, allow a speedster to actually play SPD 12. He was essentially a really good agent buster.

 

Over several years of SPD creeping upwards across the game, for no real good reason then player wanting their characters to go "first" I installed SPD limits. Basically there was an across the board SPD reduction for everyone with a SPD higher then 4. The 5s became 4s, the 6s became 5s and so on. The speedsters dropped more. Turbo went from 12 to 8 (and then to 6 at the players request), and other speedsters had similar jumps.

 

It helped play dramatically. Having 85% of the characters be the same SPD (4). It lets a speedster play at 6 feel like a speedster still, but not be the GM attention hog.

 

I highly recommend "low" SPD games.

[lemming]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

How do you run speeds above 12?

 

Doc

 

Mod Twelve, so the character has a SPD 12 & 3.

 

It's something not be lightly done and I think at most we had two or three chars at a time with speeds like that.

[Split Decision]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I don't actually play with the Hero system since my table gang likes AD&D. But it makes real sense for SPDs to stay low for all the reasons stated. The best reason though is it allows VIPER agents and so forth to give the heroes fits.

 

The problem is the tragedy of the commons- since nobody wants to see the "other guy" get more GM time (a finite resource), it makes sense for each individual player to make his or her playing piece with a relatively high SPD, even though this means SPD creep will slow the overall experience to a glacier's pace.

 

This problem can be solved if 1) you are all rolling toons up there at the table together, and 2) each person has a decent enough intuitive grasp of what it means to have a "low-SPD" campaign versus a "high-SPD" campaign. Otherwise, a player will feel arbitrarily restricted, and hurt feelings may come. With some experience or good maths skills or a lot of time here on the Hero boards, these things are easy to grasp. Otherwise, they're really not.

 

How can you describe to someone who is used to a normal "everyone's a SPD 1" combat system that the difference between SPD 2 and SPD 4 is much greater than the difference between SPD 4 and 6? It won't make any sense until you try out a few different SPDs and try them in relation to various SPD relationships. It would be like trying to explain special relativity to a caveman.

 

Actually, that is a terrible analogy. A caveman could conceptually grasp special relativity. It would be more like trying to explain the allure of watching a nil-nil draw in soccer to an American. As in, it can't be done until the American has a grasp of the finer points of soccer. And it can't really be explained why low SPD is better to someone without experience playing Hero, even if they've played D&D for 20 years- even if they've been watching basketball their whole life.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

After watching the Chelsea Liverpool match last night I can categorically state that a 4-4 game is a thousand times better than a 0-0 played out by the same teams.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Here's my basic "supers" break down, from this document Killer Shrike Champions Universe Character Creation -- though particularly high or low powered campaigns would drift a bit up or down from this baseline:

 

I run a lower SPD campaign. As a general rule of thumb, I prefer physically normal folks to remain between 3 and 4 SPD, trained fighters, super agents, and "normal" MA's to remain between 4 and 5, genetically engineered, chi enabled, mutant reflex scrappy types, Speedster-Bricks, etc to be between 5 and 7, and SPD 8 and above is reserved for dedicated Speedsters or other characters with a strong justification for excessively high SPD.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Most of your average SuperHeroic characters are only very' date=' very rarely going to come up against a normal human. If they do come up against a normal human it is more in the vein of a speed bump than an actual encounter.[/quote']

 

Define "normal human". I am thinking superagents are essentially normal humans with a bit of combat training and nice equipment. Even street thugs that a superhero should have no trouble defeating should at least be a credible threat on some level or any such encounter becomes boring.

 

In these cases, a super hero with a SPD of 4 is just as effective as one with a SPD of 8. In the first case, I've designed the villains to have SPDs of 4 (or there abouts). In the latter, the villains have SPDs of about 8. The characters in the second group are going to be no more effective than the first group. The only difference in the amount of points they've spent. That +4 SPD is not only 40 points it's also the boost in the END (to make sure you have enough END to actually survive a turn or two) and the higher REC. This is part of the reason you get higher end (not the Endurance END but the right sight of the scale end) characters that aren't really much more effective than their lower SPD counterparts.

 

The last two games my group has been involved in have been relatively low SPD. SPDs have ranged between 2 and 4. A lot more points are available for powers and skills and the characters save a great deal of points. I haven't yet had a chance, but it might be interesting and rewarding to try a standard 4 colour game with SPD limits set at about 4.

 

A SPD of 8 is a definite advantage over a SPD of 4. You are correct that the SPD 8 character dedicated a lot of points for that ability, which may be outweighed by effective point allocation for the SPD 4 character, but that really depends on how efficiently the two characters were built. In my experience, SPD provides a lot of bang for the buck. But I fully agree with your contention that low SPD leaves lots of points for other powers and skills which is generally a good thing.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

A 350 point hero will squish a 0-25 point thug like a bug. I think speedbump is far too generous a term for such a beastie.

[Cancer]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

The problem with low SPD is that the quantum of SPD difference becomes huge relative to the absolute value. The SPD 3 guys move 1.5 times more than the SPD 2 guys, and IME there's almost nothing the SPD 2 guys can get for 10 character points that makes up for that difference. At SPD 6 (or higher), the difference of 1 SPD isn't so important.