Hero Philosophy - SPEED

[lemming]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

The problem with low SPD is that the quantum of SPD difference becomes huge relative to the absolute value. The SPD 3 guys move 1.5 times more than the SPD 2 guys' date=' and IME there's almost nothing the SPD 2 guys can get for 10 character points that makes up for that difference. At SPD 6 (or higher), the difference of 1 SPD isn't so important.[/quote']

 

That's why I'm more for the higher speeds.

[Spence]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

That's why I'm more for the higher speeds.

 

I know! Lets use Fractional Speeds.

 

 

 

 

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Well if the points will be used to give more 'screen time' I read thaa as meaning that PC will be more active.

 

So if PC #1 has 3 and PC #2 has 6 then #2 will be the 'star' twice as much and drive the scene.

 

If PC#2 is the wall flower and PC #1 is the rapid fire life of the party then are you going to shut down the roleplayer and force PC#2 to try and roleplay when he is much more comforatable watching and occasionally saying "I shoot x"?

Well... I didn't say a difference of 3 SPD.... I said an extra 1 SPD... maybe 2. But yes, the intent is that the "starring" character in this episode will be more active. Often that will mean more roleplaying, yes. But mostly, it's intended to mean more impact on the outcome of the encounter.

 

For example, if the heroes are confronting Baron Montrose about his evil scheme of undead creation that resulted in Delphinia's family crypt being violated, it seems dramatically appropriate for Delphinia to be at the center of determining the outcome of that encounter. That can, of course, mean Delphinia taking center stage in a dialogue sense, with cool soliloquies and "You unkilled my father... prepare to die!" moments. But it doesn't have to... maybe Delphinia is more the grim silent type. But the point is that Baron Montrose's unspeakable mining of his realm's dead for disposable foot soliders was Delphinia's subplot... so it's only appropriate that Delphinia's performance in its key scenes drives that subplot more than the performance of other characters does (as their performance is more key to their subplots than hers is).

 

And of course, there will always be times in which the ongoing action is centered on the group as a whole, rather than a particular character, in which case no one gets the "extra screen time" bonus of a bit of extra SPD...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

The problem with low SPD is that the quantum of SPD difference becomes huge relative to the absolute value. The SPD 3 guys move 1.5 times more than the SPD 2 guys' date=' and IME there's almost nothing the SPD 2 guys can get for 10 character points that makes up for that difference. At SPD 6 (or higher), the difference of 1 SPD isn't so important.[/quote']That's a good point. The lower the typical SPD in the campaign is, the more impact each point of difference in SPD has. Lower-SPD campaigns really need the characters to stay clustered near the same SPD. Higher-SPD campaigns can afford a little more variation in SPDs without quite as much impact.

[Spence]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Well... I didn't say a difference of 3 SPD.... I said an extra 1 SPD... maybe 2. But yes, the intent is that the "starring" character in this episode will be more active. Often that will mean more roleplaying, yes. But mostly, it's intended to mean more impact on the outcome of the encounter.

 

For example, if the heroes are confronting Baron Montrose about his evil scheme of undead creation that resulted in Delphinia's family crypt being violated, it seems dramatically appropriate for Delphinia to be at the center of determining the outcome of that encounter. That can, of course, mean Delphinia taking center stage in a dialogue sense, with cool soliloquies and "You unkilled my father... prepare to die!" moments. But it doesn't have to... maybe Delphinia is more the grim silent type. But the point is that Baron Montrose's unspeakable mining of his realm's dead for disposable foot soliders was Delphinia's subplot... so it's only appropriate that Delphinia's performance in its key scenes drives drives that subplot more than the performance of other characters does (as their performance is more key to their subplots than hers is).

 

And of course, there will always be times in which the ongoing action is centered on the group as a whole, rather than a particular character, in which case no one gets the "extra screen time" bonus of a bit of extra SPD...

 

OK I understand. Makes sense to me now.

 

And by the by. Didn't mean to sound all harsh and stuff, it just came out that way

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

That's assuming you think a broad variation in speed is a _good_ thing. To me, its just a thing, with pros and cons.

 

In most games, all characters get the same number of actions. Even in games where some characters can get more actions than others its typically via some mechanism that comes at some kind of a cost or costs plural, and / or limit such abilities somehow, and / or its limited to specific things like more to-hits.

 

In the HERO System games with one or two point SPD variances run very smoothly, in fact. It's when one character has much more of the spotlight while everyone else sits around waiting for their turn that problems start to arise and a SPD race comes into effect.

 

 

Now, the HERO System is designed to model superheroes moreso than anything, and the speedster is a classic superhero concept so it is natural that the game allows for extremely high numbers of actions. However, even with that being possible, it is also possible to design very effective "speedsters" with relatively normal range of SPD's via other mechanisms so truly extreme speeds are not necessarily de facto assumptions even for speedsters.

 

 

Bottom line, the game just runs much better when the average SPD bar is dropped.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I've been a low-speed advocate for a long time. Keeping a rein on SPD makes the game run better.

 

100%

 

My supers game had average speeds of 4-5 with speed 3 or 6 characters being exceptions to the rule. This, of course, didn't include mooks who tended to average speed 3.

 

My heroic games tend to be genres with source materials dictating that exceptional characteristics are inappropriate. The average speed for mooks is 2 and main criminals and henchmen being 3-4, though I've noticed a trend of 4 across the board for PCs.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Lately, I've been thinking about running a game where SPD is meant to simulate screen time (rather than physical speed or combat savvy, etc.). Because that's often what it feels like in actual play... characters with higher SPDs are "on stage" more often.

 

Give all the PCs the same SPD by default (something like 3 for a mainstream heroic game, 4 for a higher-powered heroic game, 5 for a supers game, etc.). Then give the "star" of that week's episode another point or two of SPD to reflect that he's the focus right now. Obviously, this would vary from story to story, and possibly even from scene to scene, and all the characters would get their chance to be the featured character at various times...

 

Interesting idea. I favor flat speeds for PCs in Heroic games because it averages out screen time. Giving the "star of the week" extra speed for their "episode" is novel. I'd have to ponder how to implement it fairly.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Interesting idea. I favor flat speeds for PCs in Heroic games because it averages out screen time. Giving the "star of the week" extra speed for their "episode" is novel. I'd have to ponder how to implement it fairly.

 

Yeah. It seems like it could be cool for a troupe style of play. The troupe could possibly vote the week prior on whose character(s) would have the focus the next week, and the GM could then tailor the session towards that character(s).

[Vulcan]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

In the campaigns I've been in, the SPD range of the PC's is generally pretty flat. In the high-powered one, 5-6 was the norm with the occasional 4 or 7. The current, lower-powered game the average is 4-5, 6 being considered really fast.

 

Having said that, I think SPD ranges really depend heavily on the genre, the group, and the PC's concept and builds. I tend to build characters with higher SPD than average - but then, my average character tends to be very much on the low side for defenses, so out of (for example) 6 phases, I seem to be aborting on 3-4 of them, so my effective SPD is actually lower than the 4 SPD Brick, who gets to act on all of his phases.

 

That is something to take into account when determining if you should let a character have an above-average SPD. If he's spending all of his time aborting to avoid getting creamed, let him have it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I now make all superhero characters SPD 4 for games I'm running unless:

 

1. there is a good reason not to due to concept*, or

2. it is a seriously high powered game (500+ points)

 

Mechanically it is easier to implement that way and players new to the system have less problem getting their heads round it.

 

 

 

* even most speedster characters can be built so that they look fast but do not need a higher SPD: employing autofire for combat, and various speed trick powers, like CE and such tends to do it.

[Split Decision]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

* even most speedster characters can be built so that they look fast but do not need a higher SPD: employing autofire for combat, and various speed trick powers, like CE and such tends to do it.

 

So true. With a good sized VPP, a SPD 4 speedster is totally possible. My own signature speedster is SPD 5, DEX 23, but he could just as easily have been 4 and 20.

[DocMan]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Yeah. It seems like it could be cool for a troupe style of play. The troupe could possibly vote the week prior on whose character(s) would have the focus the next week' date=' and the GM could then tailor the session towards that character(s).[/quote']

 

Interesting idea. My Friday night group already gives out a Player Role Play Point. The players vote on which player did the best role play for that session and that person gets an extra experience point.

 

Now it would be interesting if we awarded a point of speed for the next game session. Of course, doing that would give the good role player more "screen time" meaning that they would be more likely to get the next Speed Award. It does favor the incumbent. But it should motivate the other players to kick their role play up a notch to unseat the current leader.

 

Interesting.

 

Doc

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Interesting idea. My Friday night group already gives out a Player Role Play Point. The players vote on which player did the best role play for that session and that person gets an extra experience point.

 

Doc

 

I do this as well. That one point seems to mean a lot more to a player when it comes from the group rather than the GM.

[sinanju]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I like to categorize game speed with three numbers

 

My personal preference for a game fall into:

 

Fast 6

Average 5

Slow 4

 

This keeps the supers faster than normal’s but slow enough that they don’t need to bleed points to be ‘fast’,

 

I'd make it

Speedsters ONLY 6-8 (but mostly 6, leaving them more points for power stunts)

Fast 5

Average 4

Slow 3

 

That gives even the big, slow bricks an edge in speed on normal humans, but keeps all the players (and NPCs) constrained to a fairly narrow range, which makes running the game easier.

[Vulcan]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

To each their own, I suppose.

 

As I pointed out earlier, if a character spends a lot of time aborting actions for defense, then them having a high SPD is a lot less of an issue.

[DocMan]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

To each their own, I suppose.

 

As I pointed out earlier, if a character spends a lot of time aborting actions for defense, then them having a high SPD is a lot less of an issue.

 

SPD: 4

 

+ 4 SPD, Only to abort to defensive actions(-1/2)

 

Doc

[Vox]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Buying Speed with limitations seems like a natural solution to the 'spotlight' problem. Give every character the same base Speed (say, 4) and then allow them to buy additional Speed with character-appropriate limitations. Gadgeteers with +2 Speed (Only For Adjusting VPP), Martial Artists with +2 Speed (Only To Use Melee Attacks), and so on.

 

With a system like that in place, you could have an 8 Speed speedster without everyone else feeling left out. The non-speedsters would be getting to make combat decisions at the same pace as the speedster, while leaving the speedster feeling as though he did in fact have an edge.

 

~Gabriel

[DocMan]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

How would you work having variable speeds in combat as limitations activate and deactivate speed? Changing speed in combat always throws a monkey wrench into the works.

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

SPD: 4

 

+ 4 SPD, Only to abort to defensive actions(-1/2)

 

Doc

 

Buying Speed with limitations seems like a natural solution to the 'spotlight' problem. Give every character the same base Speed (say, 4) and then allow them to buy additional Speed with character-appropriate limitations. Gadgeteers with +2 Speed (Only For Adjusting VPP), Martial Artists with +2 Speed (Only To Use Melee Attacks), and so on.

 

With a system like that in place, you could have an 8 Speed speedster without everyone else feeling left out. The non-speedsters would be getting to make combat decisions at the same pace as the speedster, while leaving the speedster feeling as though he did in fact have an edge.

 

~Gabriel

 

The biggest problem I see with these approaches is that the characters are actually getting extra benefit regardless (Taking a normal action on a Phase not normally available to their 'regular SPD'; SPD 4+2* taking a full action on Phase 2).

 

If you make the higher SPD Phases only available for the limited actions what happens when the higher and regular SPD's don't match up on the chart?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Limited SPD is a mess IMO and is best avoided IME. :

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

The only time you really need to bother with the problems extra SPD causes is when someone uses an adjustment power.

 

If you want (say) +1 SPD on 11-, the easiest way to do it is just roll the 11- PS12, and apply it for the following turn then roll again.

 

Having said that, I tend to avoid speed changes as much as possible.

[mallet]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I've been tinkering with the idea of getting rid of the speed chart and instead going with something like this (it's not all worked out yet, just a general idea):

 

Each Character get's his SPD value in "tokens" each round. SPD 4 = 4 Tokens, SPD 8 = 8 tokens.

 

Then once combat begins we start working through the characters based on their DEX value. Highest to Lowest.

 

When your DEX score comes up the player can chose to act by "spending a token", if you chose not to act, then you save the token for actions later on.

 

Once we've passed by your DEX score, if you want to do an "interrupt" or "Abort" you have to spend another "Token", but you can do this at any time (as long as you have "tokens". But the person you are interrupting can pay another "token" to still beat you. Then you can spend another one if you want to beat them. Sort of like Bidding at an auction, although all bids are spent.

 

The goal would basically be that even with a 8 SPD you might not act 8 times, maybe only twice, but with those two actions would be super important because you out "bid" the other character who was trying to act to make sure you succeeded in those two actions.

 

Or something like that. I still have to work out the details.

 

The goal would be to let everyone act, but the higher your SPD the more "screen time" you would have, the more options you have to act or prevent others from acting, etc...

 

It might go something like this. SPD 7 Hero vs. SPD 3 Goon.

 

1)SPD 7 Character attacks Goon as normal(spends 1 token)

2)SPD 2 Goon shoots at Hero (spends 1 token)

3)Hero tries to dodge out of the way (spends 1 token)

4)Goon tries to out shoot the hero's dodge (spends 1 token)

5)Hero spends another token to out dodge the Goon's out shoot attempt. (Spend 1 token)

6)Goon doesn't spend any more tokens. Shoots as normal, Hero dodges as normal.

7) Hero attacks Goon (Spends 1 Token)

8)Goon tries to Dodge (Spends 1 token) (Goon has now spent all his tokens, Hero has spent 4 of his 7)

9) Hero Spends a token to Out shoot Goons Dodge (spend 1 token)

10)Hero attacks Goon as normal, Goon doesn't get his Dodge bonus.

11)Hero Attacks Goon as normal (spend 1 token)

12)Hero Attacks Goon as Normal (spends 1 token) (Hero has now spent all 7 of his tokens)

 

Start next turn, if the goon is still standing.

 

In this combat the SPD 3 Goon only got two attacks against the Hero, and the SPD 7 Hero only got 4 attacks against the Goon.

 

It would end up something like that. It makes each action/token worth a bit more and would make combat a bit more interactive. SPD would come to represent how fluid you are in combat, how quick you are able to adjust to the situation and counter your opponents attacks.

 

Any thoughts?

[Utech]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

Any thoughts?

 

In general, I think the idea is interesting. There are a few things that get a little screwy -- Haymakers, Powers with Extra Time, Powers that last for a certain amount of time, etc.

 

I proposed something vaguely similar to the 6th Edition boards. I've attached it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Hero Philosophy - SPEED

 

I've been tinkering with the idea of getting rid of the speed chart and instead going with something like this (it's not all worked out yet, just a general idea):

 

Each Character get's his SPD value in "tokens" each round. SPD 4 = 4 Tokens, SPD 8 = 8 tokens.

 

Then once combat begins we start working through the characters based on their DEX value. Highest to Lowest.

 

When your DEX score comes up the player can chose to act by "spending a token", if you chose not to act, then you save the token for actions later on.

 

Once we've passed by your DEX score, if you want to do an "interrupt" or "Abort" you have to spend another "Token", but you can do this at any time (as long as you have "tokens". But the person you are interrupting can pay another "token" to still beat you. Then you can spend another one if you want to beat them. Sort of like Bidding at an auction, although all bids are spent.

 

The goal would basically be that even with a 8 SPD you might not act 8 times, maybe only twice, but with those two actions would be super important because you out "bid" the other character who was trying to act to make sure you succeeded in those two actions.

 

Or something like that. I still have to work out the details.

 

The goal would be to let everyone act, but the higher your SPD the more "screen time" you would have, the more options you have to act or prevent others from acting, etc...

 

It might go something like this. SPD 7 Hero vs. SPD 3 Goon.

 

1)SPD 7 Character attacks Goon as normal(spends 1 token)

2)SPD 2 Goon shoots at Hero (spends 1 token)

3)Hero tries to dodge out of the way (spends 1 token)

4)Goon tries to out shoot the hero's dodge (spends 1 token)

5)Hero spends another token to out dodge the Goon's out shoot attempt. (Spend 1 token)

6)Goon doesn't spend any more tokens. Shoots as normal, Hero dodges as normal.

7) Hero attacks Goon (Spends 1 Token)

8)Goon tries to Dodge (Spends 1 token) (Goon has now spent all his tokens, Hero has spent 4 of his 7)

9) Hero Spends a token to Out shoot Goons Dodge (spend 1 token)

10)Hero attacks Goon as normal, Goon doesn't get his Dodge bonus.

11)Hero Attacks Goon as normal (spend 1 token)

12)Hero Attacks Goon as Normal (spends 1 token) (Hero has now spent all 7 of his tokens)

 

Start next turn, if the goon is still standing.

 

In this combat the SPD 3 Goon only got two attacks against the Hero, and the SPD 7 Hero only got 4 attacks against the Goon.

 

It would end up something like that. It makes each action/token worth a bit more and would make combat a bit more interactive. SPD would come to represent how fluid you are in combat, how quick you are able to adjust to the situation and counter your opponents attacks.

 

Any thoughts?

 

It needs to be fleshed out, but I like the concept. I'm not sure I would prefer it to the Speed Chart, but it would be interesting to try. Rep.