nexus Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far There might be - unless Oddhat has a prelease copy of 6e. Good point Well we have no choice but to use Enhanced Interrogation Techniques on Oddhat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far All right I thought there was more. That doesn't really seem to make them "Derivied". They're still paid for independently of each other from a base. You just save some point and gain the risk of losing more from negative Adjustment points. It's not really figured characteristics. I see where that works for replacing ECs in a fashion though. Edit: Thanks! I'll admit that it is not true recoupling, but seeing as how Figured CHAR were about linking together various CHAR for a cost break, it's about as close as it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far All right I thought there was more. That doesn't really seem to make them "Derivied". They're still paid for independently of each other from a base. You just save some point and gain the risk of losing more from negative Adjustment points. It's not really figured characteristics. I see where that works for replacing ECs in a fashion though. It adds a risk, yes, but it's a risk that should always have been either applied to both EC's and Figured Characteristics, or neither. I leaned towards neither, myself, but I like the idea that they may now be at least consistent in the official rules. I'm not sure how you're defining derived, though. If I, as GM, define humans as getting 1 PD, 1 REC, 2.5 STUN, and 1" Leaping for every 5 points of STR, I am deriving those amounts. Are you saying it's not derived unless you get it for free? Or perhaps it's that the formulae are not part of the core, official rules? No, it's not Figured Characteristics, since that is a game term with a specific definition, and I doubt that Steve bothered to re-define it for 6th Edition. But it does allow you to conceptually link together the exact same sets of stats in the exact same proportions (well, maybe, we're still in the conjecture stage for how the Limitation will work) for a similar cost. The STR with a -1/4 Limitation will come to about 9 points per 5 STR, assuming the formerly Figured Stats have the same cost. I'd love to see it come to about 5 with tinkered costs, but it's not necessary for me. I love the fact that it appears I'll be able to link stats together as I wish them to be. Mind you, I would have been equally satisfied with Hugh's cost structure* or Opal's** "Figured Characteristics as Power Framework" ideas, and probably other suggestions that I've forgotten, which don't actually remove figureds. But this sounds like it's shaping up pretty well. *You could link different stats together before, of course, simply by using No Figured Characteristics and altering them as you like. The advantage of Hugh's structure is that you'd just subtract out the stats you don't want, spend the points as you please, and it actually worked out well. But so it goes. **And this Limitation is very close: it's basically allowing you to apply EC to your Characteristics easily, since it replaces that Power Framework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far All right I thought there was more. That doesn't really seem to make them "Derived". They're still paid for independently of each other from a base. You just save some point and gain the risk of losing more from negative Adjustment points. It's not really figured characteristics. I see where that works for replacing ECs in a fashion though. Edit: Thanks! I hope there is more. I was hoping you could determine more complex relationships such as several stun points per whatever combo you liked or its really inadequate for my purposes. if that's it I also prefer ECs. I can't help but think there's more to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I hope there is more. I was hoping you could determine more complex relationships such as several stun points per whatever combo you liked or its really inadequate for my purposes. if that's it I also prefer ECs. I can't help but think there's more to it. Just include the following in your campaign guidelines: Suggested Characteristic Minimums: PD: STR/5 ED: CON/5 REC: STR/5 + CON/5 ... and so on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I'm not sure how you're defining derived, though. I'm defining derived as the base for the characteristic is determined directly from another. PD=Str/5 for example. And no, it's not Figured Characteristics or that close to them in anything but a Kind of/sort of way or anything you couldn't do in 5th. If you disliked the concept of Figured Chars then Unified Power (going by what we know now) is fine, if you like the concept of Figured Chars then it's kind of a duct tape patch that comes close but not replaces, somewhat like Comeliness and Striking Appearance. Though there maybe more to this Limitation that makes it function more like Fig chars that we won't see until the book is released. I'll reserve final judgment until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far You can define anything you want to as part of a Unified Power. So, Superiorman has "Xenonian Strength". He takes +X STR, PD, REC, and STUN as a Unified Power, with a -1/4 limit on all of them. This saves him a boatload of points; on the other hand, Drains are now much more dangerous for The Man of Next Tuesday, as a Drain against one of his Xenonian STR derived stats is a drain against all. I suppose in a way, thats a Good thing...it makes the whole Oh No! It's Handwavium! Pretty straight foward... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Though there maybe more to this Limitation that makes it function more like Fig chars that we won't see until the book is released. Given that the limitation was originally described as the replacement for ECs, and that Steve has never mentioned it as a replacement for Figured Cha, I doubt it. The closest equivalent to figured Cha would be package deals, such as: 10: Str +5, PD +1, Rec +1, Stun +2 15: Con +5, ED +1, Rec +1, End +10, Stun +5 (assumes x1 Con, x0.5 END) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Given that the limitation was originally described as the replacement for ECs, and that Steve has never mentioned it as a replacement for Figured Cha, I doubt it. The closest equivalent to figured Cha would be package deals, such as: 10: Str +5, PD +1, Rec +1, Stun +2 15: Con +5, ED +1, Rec +1, End +10, Stun +5 (assumes x1 Con, x0.5 END) Well, of course, you mean Templates not Package Deals. But, really, what's wrong with my solution of simply using the old formulae to specify the suggest campaign minimums for the old Figureds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far But, really, what's wrong with my solution of simply using the old formulae to specify the suggest campaign minimums for the old Figureds? You'd still have to buy them up independently which requires an larger amount of points to spent to get the same character and a an additional step I don't currently need for every character as it stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Given that the limitation was originally described as the replacement for ECs' date=' and that Steve has never mentioned it as a replacement for Figured Cha, I doubt it. [/quote'] Yes, but Steve has said precious little and there's been allot of going on about how this Unified Power limitation "recouples" characteristics. Since we have no way of knowing who was on the Secret Council and who's just musing outloud I was wondering if I'd missed something or there might be more to it that has been revealed so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Good point Well we have no choice but to use Enhanced Interrogation Techniques on Oddhat. We could just get him to demo one of his new alcohol based resolution systems BTW can we could use 'linked' rather than 'unified power -1/4', if you want a more 'figured characteristic' feel: +30 STR: 30 points +10 PD, linked STR: 7 points +10 REC, linked STR: 13 points +20 Stun, linked STR: 13 points Total 63 points, and any STR drain drains them all, proportionally, but a PD drain would not drain STR (or any other characteristic linked to STR). OK it is pointless at present, but it might work in 6e: unified power -1/4 would make the 80 points you spend (assuming cost remains the same for characteristics) cost 53, but drain one drain all as opposed to just 'drain STR drain all' CF current system: 30 STR Automatic figured: +6 PD +6 REC +15 Stun Then spend the following: +4 PD (linked STR): 3 points +4 REC (linked STR): 5 points +5 Stun (linked STR): 3 points Total 41 points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Given that the limitation was originally described as the replacement for ECs' date=' and that Steve has never mentioned it as a replacement for Figured Cha, I doubt it. [/quote'] He actually did indicate that Unified Power could be used to couple CHAR together - it was in the last HERO chat or so, but that's been so long ago (from a chat archive standpoint) that I'm not about to dig up my evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far He actually did indicate that Unified Power could be used to couple CHAR together - it was in the last HERO chat or so' date=' but that's been so long ago (from a chat archive standpoint) that I'm not about to dig up my evidence.[/quote'] If I remember correctly, you asked if Unified Power could be applied to Characteristics. Or perhaps if there were any restrictions on what you could apply Unified Power to . You jumped to the conclusion that you could use it to construct an alternative to Figured Characteristics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far You'd still have to buy them up independently which requires an larger amount of points to spent to get the same character and a an additional step I don't currently need for every character as it stands. It is highly unlikely that Unified Power will change those facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far You'd still have to buy them up independently which requires an larger amount of points to spent to get the same character and a an additional step I don't currently need for every character as it stands. That extra thirty seconds or so per character is going to be a killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far That extra thirty seconds or so per character is going to be a killer. Oh, thank you so much for that, Rod, 'cause if there was something this thread was in short supply of, it was snark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far That extra thirty seconds or so per character is going to be a killer. Not cool, man, not cool at all. Edit: It wasn't worth it. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incrdbil Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I think its time we all took a break from the 6e threads. I think the point of negative return is being reached on many of the interactions. I've been lurking the thread, but I'm thinking a general unsubscribing from the thread would be better. People are getting a bit too sensitive, either way you feel about it, about reactions to some changes in a game. Sigh....its times like this I miss the catsuit threads. always a good moodlifter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Maybe you're right. All I know is that I've been an enthusiastic fan of Hero System for over 20 yrs but this 6th edition crap has almost succeeded in strangling that enthusiasm to death in a matter of months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far If I remember correctly' date=' you asked if Unified Power could be applied to Characteristics. Or perhaps if there were any restrictions on what you could apply Unified Power to . You jumped to the conclusion that you could use it to construct an alternative to Figured Characteristics.[/quote'] And Steve confirmed that Unified Power could be used on CHAR in direct response to my question, so what conclusion would I have jumped to? I'm not trying to cloud people's minds here about 6e, I simply had a hunch that was confirmed and has continually been brushed aside as mere speculation. While I may not have articulated it as well as I desired, I have never believed that Unified Power would be a way to return the formulae to CHAR (if that's what you implied); I simply recognized that Unified Power could provide a cost break similar not only to EC's but also to Figured CHAR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incrdbil Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Maybe you're right. All I know is that I've been an enthusiastic fan of Hero System for over 20 yrs but this 6th edition crap has almost succeeded in strangling that enthusiasm to death in a matter of months. I feel what is effecting some here is the discussion on 6e more than 6e itself, and the going back and forth before we really get to experience it as a working whole, instead of the few focused parts we see. It's sort of like tasting a few ingredients of a dish, and fighting over it with other cooks before trying the finished meal. It's better just to go have an appetizer or a nice drink and shoot the breeze and wait for dinner to be served. oh well...the downside of the internet, sneak peeks and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Maybe you're right. All I know is that I've been an enthusiastic fan of Hero System for over 20 yrs but this 6th edition crap has almost succeeded in strangling that enthusiasm to death in a matter of months. I would suggest you ignore all our blathering here on the boards and wait for 6E to come out and judge it. I think you'll find a lot of what you liked about Hero is still there. Some of what you liked will have been changed. Parts you didn't like will still be there. And parts you didn't like will have changed. I'm sure you'll find some of the changes, once they all come to light, as a good thing and some as a bad thing. And I'm sure, once you sit down to play whatever version you like most you'll still find yourself an enthusiastic fan of the Hero System. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Oh' date=' thank you so much for that, Rod, 'cause if there was something this thread was in short supply of, it was snark. [/quote'] Oh, come on, complaining about the minor little bit of extra work caused by decoupling Figured Characteristics calls for a snark in my mind. But if it makes people feel better, I will apologize. Geesh, guys, it's just a game that you use to waste a few hours of time now and then -- it's not life and death. Just calm down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Maybe you're right. All I know is that I've been an enthusiastic fan of Hero System for over 20 yrs but this 6th edition crap has almost succeeded in strangling that enthusiasm to death in a matter of months. You know, I've generally liked Hero Fans for over 25 years but the reaction of some of those fans to the 6th edition changes has almost succeeded in making me hate Hero fans in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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