ajackson Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far So I have a ~10% chance of missing a 2 meter wide target from 30 feet away? Under combat conditions? Sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far The common sense rule wouldn't be needed half so much if there was more consistency. A hex you are adjacent to is DCV 0 and a hex is twice the size of a human (debatable but that is what it says), so a human you are adjacent to, even if not moving at all, should be DCV 2. It isn't. Nothing to do with realism, lots to do with consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far If you insist on "realism": -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979. In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 38% 3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5% 7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4% In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 28% 3 yards to 7 yards .... 11% 7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2% -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source: http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/Combat.htm In real combat, a trained officer has about 1 chance in 3 of hitting a target in the adjacent hex. Add any distance, and the chance drops like a stone. Criminals are generally much worse shots in real confrontations. Hero is being much too kind as far as allowing people to shoot straight, if we're talking "realistic". I guess the A-team wasn't so over the top after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far If you insist on "realism": -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979. In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 38% 3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5% 7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4% In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 28% 3 yards to 7 yards .... 11% 7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2% -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source: http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/Combat.htm In real combat, a trained officer has about 1 chance in 3 of hitting a target in the adjacent hex. Add any distance, and the chance drops like a stone. Criminals are generally much worse shots in real confrontations. Hero is being much too kind as far as allowing people to shoot straight, if we're talking "realistic". Interesting figures. I'd heard something like this but had not appreciated that the figures were quite so low. I suspect that this includes people trying to avoid return fire, ducking, using cover etc, and probably lots of people who have seen Johny Woo films and thinks that works (that'll be mainly the villians ). Players in Hero do not always make best use of cover and such, but if they do then cover will reduce the chance to hit to 9- or 7- (depending how much cover you have) for opponents of similar CV to 37.5 and 16.9% respectively. Hauntingly close... This also strongly suggests we have the basis of range modifiers wrong and should go back to -1 per X" where X is determined by the circumstances: being under fire, X might be 2", when you are not it might be a lot higher... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far This also strongly suggests we have the basis of range modifiers wrong and should go back to -1 per X" where X is determined by the circumstances: being under fire' date=' X might be 2", when you are not it might be a lot higher...[/quote'] I don't really see how that follows -- if you want situational modifiers, I'd just make them a flat CV penalty, since miss rates at one hex distance are still quite high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Or we could just accept the fact that we're playing a game where action movies, where one guy can pull the trigger 10 times and kill 10 mooks, rather than real life, is the basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Inconcievable!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Inconcievable!! This word you keep using, I do not think it means what you think it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I can't Rep you again... dang it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Interesting figures. I'd heard something like this but had not appreciated that the figures were quite so low. I suspect that this includes people trying to avoid return fire, ducking, using cover etc, and probably lots of people who have seen Johny Woo films and thinks that works (that'll be mainly the villians ). Players in Hero do not always make best use of cover and such, but if they do then cover will reduce the chance to hit to 9- or 7- (depending how much cover you have) for opponents of similar CV to 37.5 and 16.9% respectively. Hauntingly close... This also strongly suggests we have the basis of range modifiers wrong and should go back to -1 per X" where X is determined by the circumstances: being under fire, X might be 2", when you are not it might be a lot higher... It's the adreneline in real combat more than anything else. Fine motor control goes to hell for all but a tiny percentage of the population, even with training. If we were being "realistic", OCV with ranged weapons and with things like pressure point strikes and many types of fine holds and locks would be halved or worse. Some people learn to deal with adreneline in certain specific situations (such as sports matches), mainly through experience. To make things worse, there's not always cross over from one situation to another, and an unexpected change can take someone who is used to coping with a given type of confrontation and leave them flailing around and making bizarre decisions. You could simulate this in Hero with something like a Veteran talent that gives +X levels, only to offset stress penalties in a given confrontation type, but that would move us pretty far from the source material in most games. Action Heroes and Super Heroes almost never sit there firing wildly and hitting nothing just because they've never been jumped by ______ before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I can't Rep you again... dang it. Got him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapsedgamer Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far So I have a ~10% chance of missing a 2 meter wide target from 30 feet away? While someone is trying to kill or injure you? I'd say yes. If you insist on "realism": -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979. In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 38% 3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5% 7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4% In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 28% 3 yards to 7 yards .... 11% 7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2% -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source: http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/Combat.htm In real combat, a trained officer has about 1 chance in 3 of hitting a target in the adjacent hex. Add any distance, and the chance drops like a stone. Criminals are generally much worse shots in real confrontations. Hero is being much too kind as far as allowing people to shoot straight, if we're talking "realistic". There you go. Repped. Oh. Must spread...sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far So I have a ~10% chance of missing a 2 meter wide target from 30 feet away? I've seen people at a firing range miss a 4'x6' target from 10' away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I've seen people at a firing range miss a 4'x6' target from 10' away. Well firearms are clumsy and random weapons...no wait that's blasters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far No matter how much you practice, there's something about pressure that can make it all got to hell... http://funnyvideos.todaysbigthing.com/2009/06/12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far No matter how much you practice, there's something about pressure that can make it all got to hell... http://funnyvideos.todaysbigthing.com/2009/06/12 I'm pretty sure that's staged... ....um, at least I hope so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I'm pretty sure that's staged... ....um, at least I hope so. Its a commercial for some European soft/sports drink, no worries. My reaction the first time I saw was "OMG I just watched a man die!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Is it bad that I laughed first, then wondered if it was staged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far PS: Basketball Player sounds to me like what a professional athlete would take and covers all the aspects of being in the NBA, from practice etiquette to knowledge of training regimens to some aspects of dealing with the media after a game. I'm not convinced that there's a good way to actually play basketball within the Hero System, but PS: Pro Basketball Player would be an interesting background skill for certain campaigns or character concepts. By the way, what about PS: Student? I dunno Playing a game that is played for money sounds like a PS to me....not knowing how to play is a major problem for most games....If you want to know what it like to "Be a Pro" than yah buy PS:Pro Baller.... PS: Student? Sure thats what makes a upperclass-person shine next to a freshman...they know how to "game"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far If you insist on "realism": -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979. In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 38% 3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5% 7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4% In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 28% 3 yards to 7 yards .... 11% 7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2% -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source: http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/Combat.htm In real combat, a trained officer has about 1 chance in 3 of hitting a target in the adjacent hex. Add any distance, and the chance drops like a stone. Criminals are generally much worse shots in real confrontations. Hero is being much too kind as far as allowing people to shoot straight, if we're talking "realistic". Nice numbers! Well Hero is about folks who are special, I'm pretty sure "Wild Bill" had a better average than a typical college educated family man.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I dunno Playing a game that is played for money sounds like a PS to me....not knowing how to play is a major problem for most games....If you want to know what it like to "Be a Pro" than yah buy PS:Pro Baller.... PS: Student? Sure thats what makes a upperclass-person shine next to a freshman...they know how to "game"... Read the description in 5ER of Professional Skill -- basically, PS is the "do it skill" even for thinks that are not professions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallet Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Read the description in 5ER of Professional Skill -- basically' date=' PS is the "do it skill" even for thinks that are not professions.[/quote'] I think the problem arises when you have a PS that cover physical activity and competition. Sure it works well for PS:Plumber. You just roll the skill to see if you can unplug the toilet or fix the leak. But what about PS:Assassin? Do I role my Stealth skill to sneak up on someone or my PS:Assassin skill? How about shooting someone? OCV or PS:Assassin? Obviously you'd use the Stealth Skill and your OCV. But then what good is the Assassin PS? PS: Plumber covers the job, and the skills to do the job. PS: Assassin seems to only cover the Job and not the skills needed to do it, which you have to buy separately. So should PS: Assassin cost less then PS: Plumber since you get less for your points and you have to buy all the other necessary skills separately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far It's a case (imo, of course) of what's fun and worth going into detail over in a given game. In a Superhero game set on a global stage, whether you can fix a leaky faucet just isn't often going to be that important (until that one adventure with the Sewer Urchin). PS Plumber should cover everything you really need (or throw in a few other skills for fun or to tell the GM you want to use them). In a game set in the exciting world of plumbing, PS Plumber is only the start, and you may need a long list of other skills to really get the job done. In that setting, PS Assassin may really be all you need to pull off an assassination; after all, like PS Plumber in a Supers world, you're just not going to need to assassinate folks that often in Plunger Hero. Universal Toolkit or not, in some games or settings, some game elements just aren't appropriate, and others may need to have their costs tweaked. It's not a bug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I think the problem arises when you have a PS that cover physical activity and competition. Sure it works well for PS:Plumber. You just roll the skill to see if you can unplug the toilet or fix the leak. But what about PS:Assassin? Do I role my Stealth skill to sneak up on someone or my PS:Assassin skill? How about shooting someone? OCV or PS:Assassin? Obviously you'd use the Stealth Skill and your OCV. But then what good is the Assassin PS? PS: Plumber covers the job' date=' and the skills to do the job. PS: Assassin seems to only cover the Job and not the skills needed to do it, which you have to buy separately. So should PS: Assassin cost less then PS: Plumber since you get less for your points and you have to buy all the other necessary skills separately?[/quote'] Well, of course, they don't stomp all over real Skills. That's just common sense. The PS covers aspects of the job not covered by other Skills. You might use PS: Assassin to scout out locations for hits and know what the best escapte route would be. If you're a freelance assassin, it would help you in setting rates and knowing common methods of making contact with clients. It might also let you know the effectiveness of different methods of assassinations. So I think it still gives you things even if it's not as complete a skill for the occurpaton as PS: Plumbing is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far In a game set in the exciting world of plumbing' date=' PS Plumber is only the start, and you may need a long list of other skills to really get the job done. In that setting, PS Assassin may really be all you need to pull off an assassination; after all, like PS Plumber in a Supers world, you're just not going to need to assassinate folks that often in Plunger Hero.[/quote'] Ahhh, but in.... Assassin Plumber Hero you will! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.