ghost-angel Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I thought the design goal was to steal all our monies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I thought the design goal was to steal all our monies? And to get us rolling weird, non-Euclidian, SAN-blasting dice. I still don't know where Steve expects to get d37.2's.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I thought the design goal was to steal all our monies? *smacks g-a with a wet herring* Liberate! Not steal, liberate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD This sounds a little along those lines: ...but then again I guess reasonable people might differ in how they define, "streamline," so.... Fair enough, I suppose I could see that being called streamlined. Though to me "greater flexibility" and "streamlined" seem to be pretty opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I thought the design goal was to steal all our monies? LOL. Good point. But it's not that bad. They're trying to argue you out of your money not steal it, your poor sucker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD And to get us rolling weird, non-Euclidian, SAN-blasting dice. I still don't know where Steve expects to get d37.2's.... Non-Euclidian dice aren't a problem. However, if anyone comes up with a source for dice that give fractal results, please let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I like the look of this for AVLDs and for changing which CV you attack, but am leery for NNDs. I just hope the folding of NNDs into the AVLD doesn't come off kludgey like the IC to transform or Regen into Healing that happened with the advent of 5th. This will likely be something I use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Lessee, we're looking at 6 weeks before release? And the two volumes can be purchased for what? $70 for a bundle or $80 separately? That looks like ~$15 a week (actually 13.33, but 15 is a cleaner number) from here to now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I guess I just don't understand why people are leery of this WRT NNDs. Could someone let me know what about the wording of Steve's post led them to believe that the defenses available to AVADs that take "All or nothing" as a Limitation will be any more restricted than the defenses you can use for NNDs in the current rules? 'Cause I just don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD A Statement Of Purpose: As we build up to the release of 6E, I thought it would be fun to showcase something in the 6E rules that I think HERO fans will particularly like or find useful. The Sixth Edition Showcases won’t be lengthy or detail-filled, but hopefully they’ll whet your appetite for 6E. I plan to post one a week, though not necessarily on the same day each week. Naturally, you’re welcome to discuss each Showcase to your heart’s content — praise it, complain about it, whatever you like. However, generally speaking, I’m not going to participate in the conversation or answer any questions. I’ll say pretty much all I want to say in each Showcase post. So, on to this week’s showcase! The subject: Alternate Combat Value and Attack Versus Alternate Defense One of the things I’ve tried to do in 6E (and I think I succeeded ) is identify game elements that are largely similar, break them down into “pieces parts,” and rebuild them for greater flexibility and ease of use. You’ll see examples of this in several Showcases I expect, including this one. A couple such elements in 5E (and previous editions) are AVLD and NND, which are pretty similar in most respects. BOECV also has a lot in common with them. Rather than maintain such a confusing hodgepodge, I’ve taken all three out of the rules and replaced them with two new Advantages: Alternate Combat Value and Attack Versus Alternate Defense. Alternate Combat Value (“ACV”) allows you to change the type of CV used with a power. You can make a non-Mental Power use Mental Combat Value (either OMCV or DMCV), or make a Mental Power use OCV and/or DCV. Each type of “switch” has a defined Power Modifier value; you make the switches you want and add the values together to derive a final cost. So you could have, for example, a Hypno-Pistol (Mind Control, uses OCV versus DMCV) or a Mindshredder Blast (RKA, uses OMCV versus DMCV). I’m sure you can think of plenty more cool examples of things you can create with this. Attack Versus Alternate Defense (“AVAD”) allows you to change the type of defense a power works against. Defenses are listed in a “ladder” of four categories: Very Common, Common, Uncommon, Rare. (Default examples are given, but naturally the GM has the final say about which category a defense belongs to in his campaign.) Every step “up” the ladder is a cumulative Advantage; every step “down” is a cumulative Limitation; shifting within the same category is a +0 Advantage. “No Normal Defense” is an additional Limitation defined basically as “all or nothing” (i.e., if you have the defense, you take no damage at all, rather than applying the defense to reduce the damage as usual). I think this is more logical, consistent, and flexible than the pre-6E scheme. In most cases powers either become no more expensive than before, or cheaper. For example, a Mental Transform now costs less, because in most campaigns Mental Defense and Power Defense are in the same frequency category, so AVAD is a +0 Advantage (and ACV is cheaper than the +1 BOECV). Whether you use them together or separately, I think these two Advantages smooth out a couple of minor rough spots in the HERO System and give gamers some great new tools for the HERO toolkit. If you’re like me I bet you’re already thinking of neat new powers and abilities you can create with ’em. Stay tuned, and next week I’ll talk about something else fun — maybe some more Advantages, or a new Power or two, or whatever else catches my fancy. This looks both "cool" and logical, at least to me anyway.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I guess I just don't understand why people are leery of this WRT NNDs. Could someone let me know what about the wording of Steve's post led them to believe that the defenses available to AVADs that take "All or nothing" as a Limitation will be any more restricted than the defenses you can use for NNDs in the current rules? 'Cause I just don't get it. I think, it's a switching gears issue. Look at Lord Mhoram's post - he uses AVLD throughout it. (Not to pick on you LM, you just happen to be a prominent recent poster on it - this is not meant as insulting in any way.) I don't think they've caught on that AV Alternate D could mean anything the Group sees as a Defense to a particular attack. It looks too much like AVLD which could mean some are instinctively looking for the NND Construct as something outside AVAD - thinkiing possibly that AVAD applies to switching Defense Powers around, and not just defenses in a generic way (like stating Life Support as a valid AVAD All Or Notihing (AVAD-AON) construct). I'm just guessing though. I wouldn't imagine it to be any harder or easier to create AON Attacks under 6E as it was to create NND under 5E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Look at Lord Mhoram's post - he uses AVLD throughout it. (Not to pick on you LM, you just happen to be a prominent recent poster on it - this is not meant as insulting in any way. Good call. I missed that - too set in my ways I guess. And (to Archermoo) as to why it could be a problem (and very easily could not be as well)... AVLD uses defenses. NND does not (life support, hard ear covering, being grounded are all classic NND things). Merging the two seems odd, because they each seem to operate under a different paragidm. However If in AVAD you move something to a "rare" defense and that defense can be defined not as a X PD/ED/MD ect but as a status (if you will) then there shouldn't be a problem. ACV looks wonderful - I've been doing things like that for years anyway. To be honest this is exactly the kind of thing I am looking forward to in 6th - I am keeping figureds and ECs, but I assume there will be lots of new powers and advantages that will be great for me to steal. And that will improve my game, so even if I am not playing 6th, it could be worth the money to get. So Steve, thanks for the preview - it moved up the chance of my buying 6th right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Just thought of something wacky: "Defense Versus Alternate Attack" o_0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD That looks ... really complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Good call. I missed that - too set in my ways I guess. And (to Archermoo) as to why it could be a problem (and very easily could not be as well)... AVLD uses defenses. NND does not (life support, hard ear covering, being grounded are all classic NND things). Merging the two seems odd, because they each seem to operate under a different paragidm. However If in AVAD you move something to a "rare" defense and that defense can be defined not as a X PD/ED/MD ect but as a status (if you will) then there shouldn't be a problem. ACV looks wonderful - I've been doing things like that for years anyway. To be honest this is exactly the kind of thing I am looking forward to in 6th - I am keeping figureds and ECs, but I assume there will be lots of new powers and advantages that will be great for me to steal. And that will improve my game, so even if I am not playing 6th, it could be worth the money to get. So Steve, thanks for the preview - it moved up the chance of my buying 6th right away. Of note, the description of NND in 5e uses the term "defenses" to describe the things that counter the NND power, whether those things are Defensive Powers or not. So I think it is probably safe to assume you can still use them as defenses for AVAD. They would just require the use of the All or Nothing Limitation, since they couldn't be applied as defenses to reduce effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Of note' date=' the description of NND in 5e uses the term "defenses" to describe the things that counter the NND power, whether those things are Defensive Powers or not. So I think it is probably safe to assume you can still use them as defenses for AVAD. They would just require the use of the All or Nothing Limitation, since they couldn't be applied as defenses to reduce effect.[/quote'] Yeah. That is why I think it can work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Lessee, we're looking at 6 weeks before release? And the two volumes can be purchased for what? $70 for a bundle or $80 separately? That looks like ~$15 a week (actually 13.33, but 15 is a cleaner number) from here to now. At $15 a week, you'd have $90 which would be enough to cover most of (if not aill of) the Advanced Player's Guide as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I guess I just don't understand why people are leery of this WRT NNDs. Could someone let me know what about the wording of Steve's post led them to believe that the defenses available to AVADs that take "All or nothing" as a Limitation will be any more restricted than the defenses you can use for NNDs in the current rules? 'Cause I just don't get it. To be fair you have a different perspective from allot of people in the thread if you were on the SETAC group. You've seen it for awhile longer, possibly in play or even developed part of it. The rest of us are seeing it for the first time and haven't actually used it or even fiddled with it yet. It's a totally new way of looking at it so there will be some adjustment time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Hurm... interesting... It'll be that cheap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Sounds good to me. I do hope though that as the system gets broken down into the components further that there is a good bit of space spent on example builds to show how to put all these pieces together. While a lot of the old HERO grognards will be able to pick up on things pretty quickly, the more steps there are in making a power or character, the harder the entry is for new players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD In this case when the components were broken down they were put back together as a lesser number of options to fiddle with and less pieces to do the same things more evenly. Making it, hopefully, easier for new and old alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Hurm... interesting... It'll be that cheap? I believe the Advanced Player's Guide is aimed for $20 or $25. Remember, it will be softcover, black and white, and may contain little or no art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Sounds pretty cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD This is elegant, well considered, and far overdue. Solid hit straight down the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD To be fair you have a different perspective from allot of people in the thread if you were on the SETAC group. You've seen it for awhile longer' date=' possibly in play or even developed part of it. The rest of us are seeing it for the first time and haven't actually used it or even fiddled with it yet. It's a totally new way of looking at it so there will be some adjustment time.[/quote'] Very true, though even during discussions of it I don't remember even the idea that it wouldn't be able to reproduce non-standard defenses for NND style attacks coming up. But then again, that might be because we were working with more complete information than what Steve has posted. So with apologies to Steve if I'm overstepping, and having seen the more or less complete writeup of these Advantages, they should be perfectly capable of exactly reproducing any NND build that 5e was capable of supporting. Does that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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