Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

It boils down to two questions:

 

1. Can an AVAD be applied against something with a non-numerical defense, provided the "all or nothing" limitation is also applied? (That is, do situational actions satisfy the definition of "alternate defense")

 

2. If not, can the "all or nothing" limitation be applied to a power separately of an AVAD?

 

If the answer to either of these is "yes", then there's no problem. If they're both "no", either another mechanism needs to be present to enable it (be it a kludge or something more elegant) or the character designer will have to learn to live without situation-based "all or nothings".

 

Other than that concern (which I'm more than willing to house rule if needed), this looks great. A logical correction of a long-standing problem with the system.

[GamePhil]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Nevermind, archermoo summed it up very nicely.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Very true, though even during discussions of it I don't remember even the idea that it wouldn't be able to reproduce non-standard defenses for NND style attacks coming up. But then again, that might be because we were working with more complete information than what Steve has posted. So with apologies to Steve if I'm overstepping, and having seen the more or less complete writeup of these Advantages, they should be perfectly capable of exactly reproducing any NND build that 5e was capable of supporting.

 

Does that help?

 

Think so. Glad to hear it. Thanks mate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

To be fair you have a different perspective from allot of people in the thread if you were on the SETAC group. You've seen it for awhile longer' date=' possibly in play or even developed part of it. The rest of us are seeing it for the first time and haven't actually used it or even fiddled with it yet. It's a totally new way of looking at it so there will be some adjustment time.[/quote']

 

Very true' date=' though even during discussions of it I don't remember even the idea that it wouldn't be able to reproduce non-standard defenses for NND style attacks coming up. But then again, that might be because we were working with more complete information than what Steve has posted. So with apologies to Steve if I'm overstepping, and having seen the more or less complete writeup of these Advantages, they should be perfectly capable of exactly reproducing any NND build that 5e was capable of supporting.[/quote']

 

I agree with Archermoo. One issue that perhaps merits some clarification (and hpefully I'm not revealing any state secrets) is that I don't believe anyone on SETAC was playtesting any of these rules. Certainly, that was not the purpose. At least from my perspective, it was a discussion forum. Generally, any changes Steve wanted to release (and I'm sure there will be surprises in 6e for SETAC members) were sent out with a "what do you guys think?" tag, followed by points being raised. Sometimes, these resulted in changes. Sometimes, they didn't. I suspect Steve didn't tell us every change the discussion may have resulted in as he would have no reason to unless he wanted more feedback, or it might impact discussions of other issues (or someone point blank asked him).

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Think so. Glad to hear it. Thanks mate.

 

You are quite welcome.

[Jhaierr]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

This looks pretty awesome to me.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Looks great. I do have one question, though. If this incorporates the old AVLD and NND advantages, is a "Does Body" advantage still required for an AVAD, in order for it to, well, do Body damage?

[Lucius]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

No such thing in gaming. One of the great things about RPGing' date=' and one that often makes it tough to market RPG products, is that there are a million different views out there about what's good or bad, what style of play is preferable, etc. Somewhere along the minutely-gradated spectrum there'll be someone who loves any idea, and someone who hates it. [/quote']

 

So far, no one hates it.

 

The only reservations seem to have been based on a misunderstanding.

 

I'd bet that the disagreements, when they finally come up, will be purely about costing issues.

 

Seriously, I don't see a downside to this at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary can't even kick a hole in it.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Meh. Nothing I couldn't house rule if I wanted to.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

The only reservations seem to have been based on a misunderstanding.

 

I wouldn't call it a misunderstanding. More like an area that is unclear based on the preview description. But that's okay. I certainly liked the rest of it, and I won't truly judge until I've had a chance to take the full thing for a spin.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

This is the first change in 6E that I think is brilliant, and long overdue. Well done, Steve!

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I'm thinking that the biggest (and arguably most drastic) changes were revealed earlier.

 

If this first showcase is any indicator, I'm willing to bet that the remaining five weeks will be much lighter revelations, the kind that were not heatedly discussed, and which would not be polarising.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Very interesting- I like it! A significant step forward in terms of character realisation. It will be interesting to see what modifier value you get if you build what we currently use (AVLD and NND) with AVAD.

 

What is even more interesting is how positive and and avid the response has been. If this is truly a taste of things to come, I do belive that Mr Long will have a hit on his hands.

[Edsel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Alternate Combat Value and Attack Versus Alternate Defense

 

One of the things I’ve tried to do in 6E (and I think I succeeded ) is identify game elements that are largely similar, break them down into “pieces parts,” and rebuild them for greater flexibility and ease of use. You’ll see examples of this in several Showcases I expect, including this one.

 

A couple such elements in 5E (and previous editions) are AVLD and NND, which are pretty similar in most respects. BOECV also has a lot in common with them. Rather than maintain such a confusing hodgepodge, I’ve taken all three out of the rules and replaced them with two new Advantages: Alternate Combat Value and Attack Versus Alternate Defense.

 

Alternate Combat Value (“ACV”) allows you to change the type of CV used with a power. You can make a non-Mental Power use Mental Combat Value (either OMCV or DMCV), or make a Mental Power use OCV and/or DCV. Each type of “switch” has a defined Power Modifier value; you make the switches you want and add the values together to derive a final cost. So you could have, for example, a Hypno-Pistol (Mind Control, uses OCV versus DMCV) or a Mindshredder Blast (RKA, uses OMCV versus DMCV). I’m sure you can think of plenty more cool examples of things you can create with this.

 

Attack Versus Alternate Defense (“AVAD”) allows you to change the type of defense a power works against. Defenses are listed in a “ladder” of four categories: Very Common, Common, Uncommon, Rare. (Default examples are given, but naturally the GM has the final say about which category a defense belongs to in his campaign.) Every step “up” the ladder is a cumulative Advantage; every step “down” is a cumulative Limitation; shifting within the same category is a +0 Advantage. “No Normal Defense” is an additional Limitation defined basically as “all or nothing” (i.e., if you have the defense, you take no damage at all, rather than applying the defense to reduce the damage as usual). I think this is more logical, consistent, and flexible than the pre-6E scheme. In most cases powers either become no more expensive than before, or cheaper. For example, a Mental Transform now costs less, because in most campaigns Mental Defense and Power Defense are in the same frequency category, so AVAD is a +0 Advantage (and ACV is cheaper than the +1 BOECV).

 

ACV sounds like the BOECV advantage, only with a different name. Steve’s examples only deal with changing from OCV to OECV and there is no mention of changing to a CV based on some other characteristic. Of course, in my opinion, it would be a bad precedent to allow characters to buy a CV based on a wide assortment of characteristics. Pretty soon there would be so many different alternate characteristic CVs that everyone would be an easy target far too often. ACV, as I currently understand it, doesn’t sound so much like an improvement as a simple name change.

 

AVAD, as I understand it, is essentially AVLD but you can further modify it make it work like an NND. Varying the cost of the advantage based upon the commonness of the defense is already an optional rule in Hero System and one I have used. Currently you either buy an AVLD or you buy an NND. Now, if you want an NND, you’ll have to buy an AVAD and modify it further with a limitation to make it an NND. Just sounds like more steps to me with a result that doesn’t really change what was going on with NND in the first place. To me this seems to be unneeded additional complication.

 

Perhaps (hopefully) I am simply misunderstanding some things.

[GamePhil]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

ACV sounds like the BOECV advantage, only with a different name.

 

From the post, it sounds more like you can change an OCV vs. DCV attack to be OECV vs. DCV, or OCV vs. DECV, or, yes, OECV vs. DECV. You can also do likewise with attacks that use ECV, just in the other direction. I see nothing that says that there will be other types of CV in the game, but ACV would also work for that if it were houseruled in. Finally, there is no indication that ACV actually makes the Power a Mental Power if it isn't already, so you don't get LOS or IPE, or like that, nor is it against a Class of Mind. So, quite a lot different if all of that is correct (I'm only sure from the post about the first few things).

 

AVAD, as I understand it, is essentially AVLD but you can further modify it make it work like an NND. Varying the cost of the advantage based upon the commonness of the defense is already an optional rule in Hero System and one I have used.

 

And now, it's going to be official and more clearly defined based on somewhat less arbitrary criteria, rather than being +3/4 if it's not quite so uncommon. From the post, NND is simply adding in All or Nothing and using the same chart, and will likewise be expanded upon and clarified in the official rules. It being in the official rules will also impact how characters are published, so it goes beyond whether or not any given person has used the optional rules before, and may mean that more people will use it, so that's probably good.

 

But, we'll see.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

This is the first change in 6E that I think is brilliant' date=' and long overdue. Well done, Steve! [/quote']

 

 

I agree. This is the sort of "wow" I've not been finding in any announced changes until now.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I agree. This is the sort of "wow" I've not been finding in any announced changes until now.

It hardly matters since our group is sticking with 5ER, but perhaps we can poach a few ideas from 6E when it comes out and house rule them in.

 

Half of me is excited about this development and half of me was sorta hoping "There probably won't be anything in 6E worthwhile anyway." Obviously, that's no longer the case.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

ACV sounds like the BOECV advantage' date=' only with a different name. Steve’s examples only deal with changing from OCV to OECV and there is no mention of changing to a CV based on some other characteristic. Of course, in my opinion, it would be a bad precedent to allow characters to buy a CV based on a wide assortment of characteristics.[/quote']

 

There are no CVs based on Characteristics anymore. So far as we know, there are 4 independent CVs: OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV. They are not based on Dex or Ego, but are stand-alone traits with fixed starting values and fixed costs for buying them up.

 

See the 6E Rules changes confirmed so far thread.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

ACV sounds like the BOECV advantage' date=' only with a different name. Steve’s examples only deal with changing from OCV to OECV and there is no mention of changing to a CV based on some other characteristic. Of course, in my opinion, it would be a bad precedent to allow characters to buy a CV based on a wide assortment of characteristics. Pretty soon there would be so many different alternate characteristic CVs that everyone would be an easy target far too often. ACV, as I currently understand it, doesn’t sound so much like an improvement as a simple name change.[/quote']

 

One of my first thoughts in the SETAC group was actually this. In fact, I took it and ran with it, and got about half a mile down that road before Steve said "Whoa, slow down there. That may be APG material." Then we started working on CVs proper.

[Edsel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

There are no CVs based on Characteristics anymore. So far as we know, there are 4 independent CVs: OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV. They are not based on Dex or Ego, but are stand-alone traits with fixed starting values and fixed costs for buying them up.

 

See the 6E Rules changes confirmed so far thread.

I realize that, but since one of my biggest dislikes of the 6E changes is decoupling and removal of DEX as the basis for CV (and EGO for ECV)... I will be either recoupling them via house rules or I'll simply carry on with 5ER. In either eventuality (in my particular case) this makes ACV not worth the trouble.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

If you're recoupling CVs back to Characteristics, it stands to reason that you could also likely adapt ACV to your needs.

 

But, hey, judge the rule without reading it first. Suits me. I'll just say it's not BOECV renamed.

[GamePhil]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I realize that' date=' but since one of my biggest dislikes of the 6E changes is decoupling and removal of DEX as the basis for CV (and EGO for ECV)... I will be either recoupling them via house rules or I'll simply carry on with 5ER. In either eventuality ([i']in my particular case[/i]) this makes ACV not worth the trouble.

 

I'm sorry, I'm entirely failing to see how the two issues are related. You're still using OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV, yes? The only difference is in how they are calculated, so ACV works exactly the same either way, which, again, is very little like BOECV. I suppose it may still not be worth the trouble, but I don't see how it has anything to do with how CV is figured.

 

But, carry on.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I realize that' date=' but since one of my biggest dislikes of the 6E changes is decoupling and removal of DEX as the basis for CV (and EGO for ECV)... I will be either recoupling them via house rules or I'll simply carry on with 5ER. In either eventuality ([i']in my particular case[/i]) this makes ACV not worth the trouble.

 

The point was that the existing CV values aren't even derived from Dex and Ego anymore, so there's no point in speculating that the Advantage might extend to CVs somehow calculated from other Characteristics. I suppose if there are some additional new CVs that Steve hasn't told us about then the Advantage could certainly apply to them, but I don't think that's likely given what he has let slip so far.

 

But the new Advantage certainly isn't BoECV. At least without a house rule, you can't use BoECV to create a power you target with OCV against the defender's ECV, nor can you use BoECV to create a power you target with ECV against the defender's DCV. Those things are covered by the new Advantage, however, so it's not quite the same.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

 

Um, anyone have any clue about my question on "Does Body": do you still need to buy it, or can an AVAD automatically do body damage if the original attack did body damage?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

 

Um, anyone have any clue about my question on "Does Body": do you still need to buy it, or can an AVAD automatically do body damage if the original attack did body damage?

 

I don't think Steve has let that one slip publicly.