nexus Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Since there is now a Resistant Advantage I do wonder why Resistant Defense was kept as a separate Power. Players could get additional PD, ED, MD, etc and get the Resistant modifier and any others needed to fit their particular sfx. I'm also curious if the "Protects carried objects" adder will still be available in some form. re: Sue Storm style Force Walls Not having seen the Barrier Power, I'd WAG you could do it by getting a Continuous Barrier with 0 Body the required Concentration and caused Feedback (as a Side Effect?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Barrier is probably one of the coolest things that SETAC kicked around' date=' it ranks up there as one of my favorite changes to the system.[/quote']Agreed. In fact, I like the changes to Defenses in general, especially getting rid of Armor and Force Field as separate Powers. (Though unlike Scott, I'm not sure I wanna kiss Steve over it. After all, what would my wife say...? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Barrier is probably one of the coolest things that SETAC kicked around' date=' it ranks up there as one of my favorite changes to the system.[/quote'] Yeah. And I think it's also one that we pretty much all had some input into the final form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers I like Barrier as a concept' date=' but I'll have to see the power for sure - We still need to able to model Invisible Woman's Barriers that she has to concentrate to keep up, and gets feedback from. If the appropriate limitations are in place to do that - cool.[/quote'] I don't think I'm giving anything away by saying that you'll be able to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Resistant (+1/2): excellent. Resistant Protection (3/2): a why power. It's always either the same cost or more expensive than PD(resistant)+ED(resistant), so unless there's some reason I can't just buy PD and ED as powers, I'd do so. Barrier: excellent. Microscopic: I've had some issues with this advantage because it can be hard to figure out its game effects, but I don't have a big problem with the price. Penetrative: Good (I hated the way 5e did senses), though I'm unclear why 'partially penetrative' is listed, as opposed to just buying Penetrative (Only Through X), which allows varying the cost depending on how common the substance is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted August 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Do we have a definite publish date yet? When can I order? On the first question, we can't really provide much in the way of specifics until the books leave the printer in China -- and even then we have to leave plenty of "wiggle room" in case Customs takes longer than expected, Typhoon WotC sinks the ship, or what have you. On the second question, the current plan is to start taking orders on August 19. That way GenCon attendees get to see it first as a little perk, and I'm back in the office ready to field questions. No matter how well I explained things, there are inevitably gonna be questions, and I want to be in place to jump on 'em as they come in, rather than return from Indy to find two workdays' worth of questions waitin' for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Despite your rude tone, I'm going to try to say this politely. If you stop and think about what you're asking for, it will probably occur to you that the type of Microscopic you're describing cannot work without a table describing the modifiers for things like perceiving viri, bacteria, and atomic particles. There is no good reason whatsoever to have a table like that in the main rulebook. In the APG, where I can do things like provide an Expanded Shrinking Table that goes all the way down to atomic sizes, there can in fact be PER Roll modifiers for things like viri, bacteria, and atomic particles. And if we flip back a few pages in the APG to the "Enhanced Senses" entry, hey, whaddaya know? There's an optional rule for buying Microscopic like Telescopic, since now there's an easily-referenced chart that makes that sort of power structure feasible. Microscopic as it exists is in no way, shape, or form "un-Hero-like," and I guarantee you that as long as I'm in charge it's going to stay just the way it is. First and most importantly, I'm sorry my tone seemed rude. It was meant to be whiney (which, I suppose, could be considered a form of rude -- so I apologize for my intent as well as the result). Second, I'm glad to see that option in the APG. If there's a switch in Hero Designer for it, I'll be a very happy camper. I don't really think it would be so unworkable without said table; and even if it was, a small handy reference table with no more than a dozen entries or so (not unlike the ones that exist in earlier editions) should be sufficient for most purposes. Plus, I'm also unsure whether doing it this way really eliminates -- or even affects at all -- the importance of such a table. I'll agree to disagree on that last point, though; this isn't the time nor place to debate it, and I'm not sure such a thing (as a time or place for debating this point) exists, unless it's a now-hypothetical 7th Edition forum another decade from now. As for it being "un-Hero-like," I say it because there's no other mechanic in the system (at least, that I can think of) that also works this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers I don't think I'm giving anything away by saying that you'll be able to do that. I think it's fair to say that Steve was clear through the entire process that the goal was to add, not remove, options. So removing the ability to build a Sue Storm Force Wall wasn't on the agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers As for it being "un-Hero-like," I say it because there's no other mechanic in the system (at least, that I can think of) that also works this way. Another Sensory Adder that magnifies an aspect tenfold per level, but remains somewhat functionally vague?Rapid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Unless it's changed dramatically since 5e, Megascale also uses powers of 10. In the end, powers of 10 are easier to work with than powers of 2; while not really practical for legacy reasons, if redoing the Hero system I'd be in favor of lots of things going over to powers of 10 (or fractions thereof; doubling is very close to a 0.3 power of 10, for example). Incidentally, looking at Barrier: will this also be the Create Object power, or will that be a separate power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Intrigued. I have a feeling I'll be spending a lot of time at GenCon writing up characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Another Sensory Adder that magnifies an aspect tenfold per level' date=' but remains somewhat functionally vague?Rapid.[/quote']That's one ability that I'd rather worked on the Time Chart, though I'm a little less strident about that. Microscopic has been annoying me since Telescopic became what it is now. (I have a similar annoyance with the changes to Telekinesis as of 4th Edition, but I've already gone over that far too much to expect to change anyone's mind if it hasn't been changed already.) Incidentally' date=' looking at Barrier: will this also be the Create Object power, or will that be a separate power?[/quote']I do hope so, and it looks like it may be the case here. At the very least, it looks like one can make proper bridges with it, which gets both and from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers That's one ability that I'd rather worked on the Time Chart' date=' though I'm a little less strident about that.[/quote'] I'd like to see general rules for reducing the time taken for specific actions (on the time chart). Rapid Senses seem to have one of two (nearly unrelated) purposes: either rapid data acquisition (speed reading), which seems like something that fits properly on the time chart, or the ability to perceive events that occur too fast for human perception (which could reasonably be handled with perception modifiers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers I think it's fair to say that Steve was clear through the entire process that the goal was to add' date=' not remove, options. So removing the ability to build a Sue Storm Force Wall wasn't on the agenda.[/quote'] In fact as I recall making sure that you could still build them was actively ON the agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers OK, maybe I am misreading (Probably true), but I am a bit confused. Barrior is an instant power, is this an instant power such as entangle (where the barrior would be around afterwards) or an instant power like Force Wall with instant added to it, so it disapears after it is used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers I like Barrier as a concept' date=' but I'll have to see the power for sure - We still need to able to model Invisible Woman's Barriers that she has to concentrate to keep up, and gets feedback from. If the appropriate limitations are in place to do that - cool.[/quote'] This is probably easily done via limitations. I could be wrong, but that's my impression. You can make entangles that disappear when the creator stops maintaining them, which is the closest approximation I have based on the limited data available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers It's Instant the way that one can create Entanglement Barriers in 5e. You attack a defined space (almost said "hex") and it is covered with said Barrier. It sounds like it is a hybrid of Force Wall and Entanglement Barriers, two rather similar concepts that I am glad have been merged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers I like the roll-up of resistant defenses, Steve! I think I like the Barrier rule. I have to read it to really know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers I have a character whose giant robot is basically just a durable force wall in 4th/5thEd, so I'll be curious to see how I might have to rewrite that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers I have a character whose giant robot is basically just a durable force wall in 4th/5thEd' date=' so I'll be curious to see how I might have to rewrite that...[/quote'] You just gave me two ideas:1) Telekinesis only to move the Barrier aroundor2) Vanilla Mobile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Well, with any luck it looks like Silver Age Spider-man can now put Barrier into his web-shooter multipower & we can all stop putting "Cannot form barriers, -1/2" on 75% of all entangle builds. It always struck me as wrong that buying some powers actually gave you two abilities & you had to limit them if you only wanted one. As for keeping Resistant Defense as a power while adding Resistant as an advantage? I would guess this lets you use the advantage on your characteristics without being forced to buy them as powers, but still lets you buy equipment and non-persistent defense without having to break out the "Characteristics as powers" rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Penetrative Senses! No more clunky N-Ray crap! Barriers with BODY - good! Although you could always form bridges with Force Wall, because otherwise it makes no sense - either physical objects pass through them or they don't. But with BODY, those bridges will be safer - they can be damaged befor going down completely. From the way Steve described Resistant Defense, it sounded like you can't put Power/Mental/Flash in it unless you make it into a Force Field by taking Costs END. I assume that's not correct and it was just a bit of ambiguity on his part. (And yes, I know that you very rarely need those defenses to be Resistant.) Has the Barrier function of Entangle been taken away? If so, Spiderman and Iceman will need new powers/frameworks, as will "earth movers" and other similar entanglers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers As for keeping Resistant Defense as a power while adding Resistant as an advantage? I would guess this lets you use the advantage on your characteristics without being forced to buy them as powers' date=' but still lets you buy equipment and non-persistent defense without having to break out the "Characteristics as powers" rules.[/quote'] It did strike me as a little odd to have a separate Power that you could have constructed with PD/ED and the new Resistant Advantage. I could buy +5 PD/+5 ED as a Characteristic Power and add Resistant to it, then limit it with OIF (Armor) for 10 points, or I could buy +5 PD/+5 ED Resistant Defense and limit it with OIF for 10 points. Unless there's something I'm not seeing, that would make Resistant Defense a shorthand way to do what could be done as a Characteristic-based construct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers Penetrative Senses! No more clunky N-Ray crap! Barriers with BODY - good! Although you could always form bridges with Force Wall, because otherwise it makes no sense - either physical objects pass through them or they don't. But with BODY, those bridges will be safer - they can be damaged befor going down completely. From the way Steve described Resistant Defense, it sounded like you can't put Power/Mental/Flash in it unless you make it into a Force Field by taking Costs END. I assume that's not correct and it was just a bit of ambiguity on his part. (And yes, I know that you very rarely need those defenses to be Resistant.) Has the Barrier function of Entangle been taken away? If so, Spiderman and Iceman will need new powers/frameworks, as will "earth movers" and other similar entanglers. Actually Steve just said "as with Force Field you can define this as Power Defense, Mental Defense, or the like instead of just PD and ED". Doesn't seem very ambiguous to me. It has the same cost structure as Armor, but can be bought for the same type of defenses as Force Field. Though he does note that you can make the Resistant Defense Power cost END if you want by slapping "Costs END" on it, there is nothing to indicate that that is required to make any of the defenses that it can protect against available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers "x-ray" specs, Special Edition: Partially penetrative for normal sight, sees through natural and synthetic fabrics, blocked by human skin--IAF, 3 points ok, now I feel eebil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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