Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

"x-ray" specs, Special Edition: Partially penetrative for normal sight, sees through artificial and synthetic fabrics, blocked by human skin--IAF, 3 points

 

ok, now I feel eebil...

 

"Pink"

[rjcurrie]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Actually Steve just said "as with Force Field you can define this as Power Defense' date=' Mental Defense, or the like instead of just PD and ED". Doesn't seem very ambiguous to me. It has the same cost structure as Armor, but can be bought for the same type of defenses as Force Field. Though he does note that you can make the Resistant Defense Power cost END if you want by slapping "Costs END" on it, there is nothing to indicate that that is required to make any of the defenses that it can protect against available.[/quote']

 

One other thing that might distinguish Resistant Protection from buying PD and ED as Resistant is if the Protect Carried Items Adder from Force Field is carried over to this new construct.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Yikes. I like the Barrier idea, but I liked the old Force Wall too (if I had a choice I'd definitely go with the old one). Is there going to be an official means for recreating the old construct, like Resistant Protection with Costs End, Area of Effect, and some Limitation that deactivates it if penetrated or something? Or Barrier with some kind of non-Instant Modifier that lets you maintain control of it, move it with your character, banish it at will, etc.? Or are we left with a big, gaping hole there?

[ajackson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

One other thing that might distinguish Resistant Protection from buying PD and ED as Resistant is if the Protect Carried Items Adder from Force Field is carried over to this new construct.

And doesn't also apply to PD/ED, which would be weird -- why does it not make sense to be able to provide non-resistant protection to carried objects?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Yikes. I like the Barrier idea' date=' but I liked the old Force Wall too (if I had a choice I'd definitely go with the old one). Is there going to be an official means for recreating the old construct[/quote']

 

Yes.

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Yikes. I like the Barrier idea' date=' but I liked the old Force Wall too (if I had a choice I'd definitely go with the old one). Is there going to be an official means for recreating the old construct, like Resistant Protection with [i']Costs End[/i], Area of Effect, and some Limitation that deactivates it if penetrated or something? Or Barrier with some kind of non-Instant Modifier that lets you maintain control of it, move it with your character, banish it at will, etc.? Or are we left with a big, gaping hole there?

Barrier already will affect a given area which is bought up like with FW. To make it easily penetrable I would guess that you simply do not buy any BODY for it. Lastly, I'm sure that one could apply a Costs END to Maintain Power Limitation if they wanted to do so.

[novi]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Since there is now a Resistant Advantage I do wonder why Resistant Defense was kept as a separate Power. Players could get additional PD' date=' ED, MD, etc and get the Resistant modifier and any others needed to fit their particular sfx.[/quote']

 

I have to imagine that it is there because we're not supposed to put characteristics in power frameworks. Also, I think it gets the same sort of treatment that growth et. all get, that it is a composite power written up as a single power in the book for reasons of conceptual simplicity and convenient shorthand. There is no reason to have a growth power since you can just buy all of what it gives you separately. On the other hand, that would kill sales by turning off casual gamers who don't want to think that hard about things. It also makes it simpler to build a character since you only have to write down one thing as opposed to the 8 or 12 things with growth. Resistant Defense falls into a similar situation, where many people find it easier to grok a separate defense power than buying it all as characteristics.

 

I personally like it because it causes me mental discomfort to write "26 Forcefield: 15 PD and 15 ED, resistant(+1/2), visible(-1/4), costs END every phase(-1/2)" on a character sheet.

 

Lastly, I'm not sure how adjustment powers are going to work, but I imagine it is helpful to have separate power to work with for building a force field disruptor.

[Beast]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

since the cost comes out the same

you can make all of your PD,ED,MD, PowD resistant not just the extra you buy

it also gives 3 options on defining vs NND

 

 

• Resistant (+1/2): excellent.
  
• Resistant Protection (3/2): a why power. It's always either the same cost or more expensive than PD(resistant)+ED(resistant), so unless there's some reason I can't just buy PD and ED as powers, I'd do so.
  
• Barrier: excellent.
  
• Microscopic: I've had some issues with this advantage because it can be hard to figure out its game effects, but I don't have a big problem with the price.
  
• Penetrative: Good (I hated the way 5e did senses), though I'm unclear why 'partially penetrative' is listed, as opposed to just buying Penetrative (Only Through X), which allows varying the cost depending on how common the substance is.
  

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Barrier already will affect a given area which is bought up like with FW. To make it easily penetrable I would guess that you simply do not buy any BODY for it. Lastly' date=' I'm sure that one could apply a Costs END to Maintain Power Limitation if they wanted to do so.[/quote']

 

I can imagine ways to hack it out as well. Here's how I view it. Currently, we can build barriers quite easily using an Entangle with Autofire or Area of Effect or something. We can build force walls quite easily using...well, Force Wall. It looks like now we'll be able to build barriers quite easily using Barrier, and force walls very strenuously using some big, clunky, overcomplicated, ugly power construct. A large step back IMO. As always I will reserve FULL judgement until I see the whole thing, but I guess I was just fishing for a little more assurance that there might still be a clean, simple, unambiguous, official option for this.

[Simon]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

I can imagine ways to hack it out as well. Here's how I view it. Currently' date=' we can build barriers quite easily using an Entangle with [i']Autofire[/i] or Area of Effect or something. We can build force walls quite easily using...well, Force Wall. It looks like now we'll be able to build barriers quite easily using Barrier, and force walls very strenuously using some big, clunky, overcomplicated, ugly power construct. A large step back IMO. As always I will reserve FULL judgement until I see the whole thing, but I guess I was just fishing for a little more assurance that there might still be a clean, simple, unambiguous, official option for this.

 

People frequently boggle my mind --- you've got a rather decent explanation of a new ability and how it helps the system. You've got multiple people who have actually seen the writeup telling you how much they like it. And you somehow manage to ignore this and come up with a worst case scenario in your head that ignores many things you've already been told....just so you can be pissed off, from what I can tell.

 

Barrier 10PD/10ED, 0 BODY

 

How hard is that? How is that a "big, clunky, overcomplicated, ugly power construct"?

 

Seriously.

 

Oh...wait. You want it to cost END to maintain or it disappears.

 

Barrier 10PD/10ED, 0 BODY, Costs END to Maintain

 

Wow. Clunky and overcomplicated all right.

 

From where I'm sitting, you've got more options and more elegant approaches to common schticks than you did before. But hey, feel free to ignore this as well and be all negative.....it's apparently what many do best.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

The current "Force Wall" did not go away as a Mechanical reality, it is not a clunky build, it is merely one option with the purview of Barrier.

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

I have to imagine that it is there because we're not supposed to put characteristics in power frameworks.

 

We aren't? ECs are gone and the only rule I recall about Characteristics in Multi Powers is they have to have No Figs chars which are also gone. There are several published characters with Chars in Multipowers too.

 

Resistant Defense falls into a similar situation, where many people find it easier to grok a separate defense power than buying it all as characteristics.

 

 

I personally like it because it causes me mental discomfort to write "26 Forcefield: 15 PD and 15 ED, resistant(+1/2), visible(-1/4), costs END every phase(-1/2)" on a character sheet.

 

Honestly you can say the same thing about Armor and Force Field. The division between them is "artificial" but comfortable and simpler to write on the character sheet.

 

Lastly, I'm not sure how adjustment powers are going to work, but I imagine it is helpful to have separate power to work with for building a force field disruptor.

 

Now that could be a problem but then I've always felt Adjustment powers should work on SFX not Game Mechanics by default. I guess you write it up as Drain ED/PD and limited the sfx that it can affect.

 

It's not really a big deal for me either way, I was just curious why the line was drawn where it was.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

P

 

Barrier 10PD/10ED, 0 BODY, Costs END to Maintain

 

That's good enough for me.

 

The longer it goes, the more I think I will be using 6th powers/Advantages/ect more, and just build all the 5th Powers I like from it, and make them base powers in my games. I'll still have figured Chars, Com and EC though.

[ajackson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

since the cost comes out the same

Only for unadvantaged defenses. Compare:

+8 PD, resistant, hardened (14); +8 ED, resistant, hardened (14); 28 total

+8/+8 resistant defense, hardened (30)

 

That's without even abusing roundoffs.

[Vondy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

 

Barrier 10PD/10ED, 0 BODY

 

How hard is that? How is that a "big, clunky, overcomplicated, ugly power construct"?

 

You could even write it: "Barrier 10/10/0"

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Since there is now a Resistant Advantage I do wonder why Resistant Defense was kept as a separate Power. Players could get additional PD, ED, MD, etc and get the Resistant modifier and any others needed to fit their particular sfx. I'm also curious if the "Protects carried objects" adder will still be available in some form.

 

re: Sue Storm style Force Walls

 

Not having seen the Barrier Power, I'd WAG you could do it by getting a Continuous Barrier with 0 Body the required Concentration and caused Feedback (as a Side Effect?).

 

*clears throat*

 

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Looks like another winner.

 

If you guys aren't careful, I'll end up being the only player in my group to be using 6E.

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Looks like another winner.

 

If you guys aren't careful, I'll end up being the only player in my group to be using 6E.

 

"We've switched Trebuchet's group's game system with Folger's Crystals, let's see if they notice."

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Actually Steve just said "as with Force Field you can define this as Power Defense' date=' Mental Defense, or the like instead of just PD and ED". Doesn't seem very ambiguous to me. It has the same cost structure as Armor, but can be bought for the same type of defenses as Force Field. Though he does note that you can make the Resistant Defense Power cost END if you want by slapping "Costs END" on it, there is nothing to indicate that that is required to make any of the defenses that it can protect against available.[/quote']

Whoops! I misread his post. I overlooked one little word "as". Apologies to Steve.

 

(Lamb Disdexia! What do you expect from someone in my condition?)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

That's good enough for me.

 

The longer it goes, the more I think I will be using 6th powers/Advantages/ect more, and just build all the 5th Powers I like from it, and make them base powers in my games. I'll still have figured Chars, Com and EC though.

The GMs in our gaming group were discussing this today, and this looks like the path we'll take too. There are clearly just too many good ideas and tweaks in 6E to ignore it even though we'll be retaining 5ER as our core system.

 

None of which precludes the possibility we'll fully adopt 6E at some time in the more distant future. Maybe with the release of 6ER...

[GamePhil]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Late to the party, but let me just say that Barrier is one of the coolest additions to the rules. Ever. I foresee hundreds of uses for it while still being able to do the old-fashioned Force Wall with a few more words. It is a thing of beauty.

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

The GMs in our gaming group were discussing this today, and this looks like the path we'll take too. There are clearly just too many good ideas and tweaks in 6E to ignore it even though we'll be retaining 5ER as our core system.

 

None of which precludes the possibility we'll fully adopt 6E at some time in the more distant future. Maybe with the release of 6ER...

Well, I'd say that the beauty of HERO is it's bottom-to-top design that makes it easy to add, remove, and/or alter things to suit your tastes.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

People frequently boggle my mind --- you've got a rather decent explanation of a new ability and how it helps the system. You've got multiple people who have actually seen the writeup telling you how much they like it. And you somehow manage to ignore this and come up with a worst case scenario in your head that ignores many things you've already been told....just so you can be pissed off' date=' from what I can tell.[/quote']

 

Actually at first I merely asked if there was an simple, official option for building the original Force Wall. I then got shouted at and told basically, "Duh! It's obvious." That, I'll admit, I got a little annoyed at, and don't agree with. It seems to me that creating an independent, stand-alone, permanent object is quite different from actively maintaining a continuous power. There are benefits (remove the barrier at will just by ceasing to maintain it), drawbacks (End cost, having to be around and coherent), and other differences (the possibility of keeping it centered on yourself). So can we stop with the, "What, are you stupid/mean/trollish?!" and actually talk about the differences?

 

And yes, I focused on the negative. Actually I wouldn't say, "negative," is the biggest thing that focused me on it. I'd say, "unknown/uncertain," is bigger for me. The other changes I think are pretty simple and straightforward, and I like them. I probably should have said that first, but I tend to focus on the mechanics, and I should've done a little friendly ego stroking first. But I must ask, are we not allowed to ask questions about bits of this that we find a little disturbing, uncertain, or unclear? If so I'll gladly shut my yap, but I'll have a somewhat reduced opinion of this company as well.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

....

 

Barrier 10PD/10ED, 0 BODY

 

.......

 

or cost END to maintain or it disappears.

 

Barrier 10PD/10ED, 0 BODY, Costs END to Maintain

 

 

First, the enthusiasm by the folks 'in the know' makes me feel good.

 

However, the above example makes me wonder whether 'cost END to maintain or it disappears' is somehow becoming an 'adder like' option built into the 'initial costs' of Barrier.

 

Why do I think this might be important?

 

Well, if it's just a regular Limitation then the maximum defense of a 'force wall like' Barrier within a framework just became smaller (than by the current 5er rules) due to the Active vs. Real point limits of Multipower Reserves and Variable Power Pools.

 

Regardless, I'm guessing that other parts of the system will be balanced with this as well (like the cost of building or re-building an Entangle).

 

[Beast]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

for me it is a question of cost.

Force wall was an ok build so long as active point caps where not involved

 

62 points to get a 12/12 to get a dome to place over you and cover 1 hex

and that was all you could do with it

unless you paid more points so you could alter it

 

now we are getting Barrier

a crunchy force wall ,cool

but what are the costs of the various pieces

for 60 points I feel you should be able to have a barrier that can take a 12d6 hit and cover say a 6m diameter area(2 hex radius covers 7 hexes)from both pd and ed attacks

or it could make a 7"long bridge