Independent limitation in 6E

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Aren't Followers technically Independent by default? I mean, if they die you lose the points, don’t you? While I haven’t seen Independent used a lot, I have seen it used on low point foci, (30-60 AP limited down to 10 RP, so it’s not a major loss). Also, many GMs allow you to change your powers adding new Advantages or buying off Limitations, so a player might risk losing 10-20 points in the long run to have some more power right off the bat then buy off the Independent Lim rather than increasing a weaker power or buying off Disads. While I wouldn’t suggest this as a common use, it has it’s place.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Character Points and XP are really metagame concepts anyway, and Independent is all about character points: it doesn't limit you at all until it is gone. I think you can do everything that you might want to do with Independent in other ways, including simple storytelling.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Very true, but you could say that about most of the aspects of a roleplaying game, couldn't you?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Aren't Followers technically Independent by default? I mean' date=' if they die you lose the points, don’t you? While I haven’t seen Independent used a lot, I have seen it used on low point foci, (30-60 AP limited down to 10 RP, so it’s not a major loss). Also, many GMs allow you to change your powers adding new Advantages or buying off Limitations, so a player might risk losing 10-20 points in the long run to have some more power right off the bat then buy off the Independent Lim rather than increasing a weaker power or buying off Disads. While I wouldn’t suggest this as a common use, it has it’s place.[/quote']

 

Given you can buy off limitations at any time, what prevents the player waiting until the power gets lost and then buying off "Independent"? Well, it's not Independent any more, so now I can get it back, right?

 

Alternatively, rather than repurchase the entire Independent ability, why not spend 5 points to have a spare? If you lose that one, spend another 5 to have 2x as many.

 

Duplication suffers from an inherent Independent limitation, in that dead duplicates are gone permanently.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Aren't Followers technically Independent by default? I mean' date=' if they die you lose the points, don’t you? While I haven’t seen Independent used a lot, I have seen it used on low point foci, (30-60 AP limited down to 10 RP, so it’s not a major loss). Also, many GMs allow you to change your powers adding new Advantages or buying off Limitations, so a player might risk losing 10-20 points in the long run to have some more power right off the bat then buy off the Independent Lim rather than increasing a weaker power or buying off Disads. While I wouldn’t suggest this as a common use, it has it’s place.[/quote']

 

Given you can buy off limitations at any time, what prevents the player waiting until the power gets lost and then buying off "Independent"? Well, it's not Independent any more, so now I can get it back, right?

 

Alternatively, rather than repurchase the entire Independent ability, why not spend 5 points to have a spare? If you lose that one, spend another 5 to have 2x as many.

 

Duplication suffers from an inherent Independent limitation, in that dead duplicates are gone permanently.

 

I prefer a structure where character points cannot be created or destroyed, and address issues with storytelling instead. Sean made the point about character rebuilds. The character has lost a Focus not reasonably recoverable? Then let him rebuild the character to spend those points on something else, possibly with a restriction on how quickly his new abilities can manifest.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

You could be required to buy your STR DEX and CON as independent on the basis that you'll permanently lose them when you get old

[Lucius]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

You could be required to buy your STR DEX and CON as independent on the basis that you'll permanently lose them when you get old

 

 

 

 

Only if the game is such that many years of game time are likely to pass during play, or there are attacks that prematurely age you that are difficult or impossible to reverse.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Only In Palindromedary ID

[prestidigitator]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

You could be required to buy your STR DEX and CON as independent on the basis that you'll permanently lose them when you get old

 

I'll just shift those points into Int, Ego, and Pre, thank you. Or do you think you can live with a more shrewd, stubborn, "sophisticated" me?

[Vondy]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Given you can buy off limitations at any time, what prevents the player waiting until the power gets lost and then buying off "Independent"? Well, it's not Independent any more, so now I can get it back, right?

 

Alternatively, rather than repurchase the entire Independent ability, why not spend 5 points to have a spare? If you lose that one, spend another 5 to have 2x as many.

 

Duplication suffers from an inherent Independent limitation, in that dead duplicates are gone permanently.

 

Because he already lost it?

 

No. Really.

[Greywind]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Independent can also lead to a quest to try to regain said item...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Independent can also lead to a quest to try to regain said item...

 

The point is - it's not really supposed to. The underlying premise of the Limitation is that Gone is Gone. Not Gone for a While.

[Greywind]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

I did say TRY...

[Lucius]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

So allow a Limited Power limitation - "Power is permanently lost under the following conditions". The higher the limitation, the more likely the power will be lost, and the more likely it will happen sooner rather than later.

 

(and other thoughtful comments deleted)

 

In other words - take its vanishment from the official rules as an opportunity to rethink the Limitation and possibly make it even more flexible and useful, even if now "unofficial."

 

Sometimes I like the way you think.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Culture Knowledge, Palindromedaries

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

In other words - take its vanishment from the official rules as an opportunity to rethink the Limitation and possibly make it even more flexible and useful, even if now "unofficial."

 

Oh, absolutely.

 

The original appearance of Independent was based on a flawed premise, that wizards would set up assembly lines to crank out magic items leaving the world littered with them. The counter to that argument should have been that in Champions, we didn't have the Independent Limitation, but we also didn't have assembly lines of gadgeteers cranking out high tech blasters, powered armor, and the like. (In fact, Aaron Allston "hung a lampshade" on this notion in the Strike Force supplement, making it an in-world phenomenon with a reason behind it, allowing the PCs to defeat the entity and change the world in that way.)

 

The general notion of a Focus was that, for instance, Batman shouldn't pick up thugs' guns and use them; the reason for that was that guns were not part of his concept, and that if he wanted to start carrying a gun he should pay points for it. There were occasional characters who did carry guns (and who did pay points for them) but there was also a notion that you could pick up a dropped Focus and use it on an emergency, one-time basis, and that, somehow, it would go away afterward. It was also encouraged (in 3e and prior) for gadget-using characters to hotwire and otherwise modify their gadgets; it was also assumed that, if you had a friend on your team who was a gadgeteer, you could at some point pick up a gadget of your own, for which you would pay the points. If I had a Focus, and it got lost somehow, I could go home and, eventually, have another one; it might take several weeks of in-game time during which time I would be without the Focus, and if I weren't the gadgeteer myself I might have to find one willing to help, which might take even more time. Or, with GM permission, I could spend those points on something else.

 

Independent changed the thinking on this. There was some weird assumption that if there was a Focus, there had to be points backing it. This had never been the case before, but it was now, and that led to some odd thinking. For instance, the idea that GMs might hand out character points "locked in" to magical ingredients to be used for making magic items; that always seemed to me to sort of defeat the purpose of Independent, which was really to make characters think twice before putting their hard-earned points into a position where they might go away.

 

I'm glad that the latter notion, of points going away permanently, can be seen to be on the way out, and I'm perfectly willing as a GM to say that the reason there aren't assembly lines cranking out magic items in my fantasy world is that you can't do that. If I need mechanical support for it, I can require magic items to be built with exotic ingredients that cost a lot of money or are difficult or dangerous to acquire; I can also require that building a magic item takes weeks or months in-game. In much the same way as I might do for a gadgeteer in a Champions game.

 

The points aren't, and don't have to be, locked into the item. The points are inherent to the character. (Consider the lowly I-beam. It has maybe DEF (or, in 6e, PD and ED) and BODY, but nary a point to be spent. Yet if my brick decides to carry one with him wherever he goes, to use as a club or whatnot, I need to figure out what I want it to do as a weapon and spend the points for it.)

 

If, as a Fantasy Hero GM, I throw a magic item into an adventure, it's well within genre for a character to pick it up and begin using it. At that point he can spend the points on it, or not, as he chooses. If he doesn't, his ability to keep it rests entirely on whether I, the GM, want him to; if he does, it becomes part of his character concept in a way -- but I'm still under no obligation to let him keep it. If he loses it, he can simply re-spend the points elsewhere, or re-file them under "unspent experience".

 

If we want a way to disconnect a Power from a character... Champions always let us do that; there was never some sort of assumed "connection" between a gadgeteer and his gadgets. We've assumed that was the case with Fantasy, but we don't have to. If we want magic to be permanent once cast, that can be a campaign decision by the GM, or we have other ways of doing that; Uncontrolled, for instance. It should really be an Advantage of its own. First edition Fantasy Hero had a supplement that suggested a Permanency Advantage. For (I think) +1, the item was in fact permanent, and didn't have to worry about simple Dispels (though you did have to specify some means for destroying it, like dropping it into the fires of Mount Doom). This was effectively a Stop Sign ability, even though the concept didn't exist at the time, but the GM was warned to keep a close eye on its use. As a GM, I see no reason not to include it in my own fantasy games, if I choose.

 

The notion of taking character points away from a character permanently, really kinda sucks. I've never seen it actually done, myself, and I can only see bad feelings if it does happen. (Someone might reasonably point out that Favors work similarly, and Duplication, and maybe one or two other things; I've never bought a Favor, but if I did I'd be less worried about the permanent loss of a point or two than ten or more, and I also hate the "permanent loss" part of Favors for the same reason I've always hated Independent. I would treat Duplication similarly to a Focus; a dead Duplicate isn't necessarily gone permanently (that goes back to the quote on 6e1 p. 9). I'd certainly be willing to somehow mess with the character a bit, though, in exchange for getting it back.)

[tesuji]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

The notion of taking character points away from a character permanently, really kinda sucks. I've never seen it actually done, myself, and I can only see bad feelings if it does happen. (Someone might reasonably point out that Favors work similarly, and Duplication, and maybe one or two other things; I've never bought a Favor, but if I did I'd be less worried about the permanent loss of a point or two than ten or more, and I also hate the "permanent loss" part of Favors for the same reason I've always hated Independent. I would treat Duplication similarly to a Focus; a dead Duplicate isn't necessarily gone permanently (that goes back to the quote on 6e1 p. 9). I'd certainly be willing to somehow mess with the character a bit, though, in exchange for getting it back.)

 

Well i have also seen the reverse in play.

 

Ran a fantasy game once using FHero. In it the gang encounted a mysterious vault with some mcguffin they wanted surrounded by a "life draining field". it was made clear by legend that those violating the tomb suffered for the rest of their life from weakness and sickness etc.

 

So the first guy started into the effect and lost some con and body and end etc. When he realized this was not going to be resolved quickly he got out.

 

the impact was there and most of the people started to try and firue a way to beat the trap.

 

Except one guy said no problem and went in and took his time and got the stuff out losing a butload of con and body and end. Everyone was shocked at how cavalierly he did so.

 

"hey its not problem, i just get the points back to spend anyway."

 

that brought the game to a halt as i explined his character wouldn't be recovering soon and that lost points were lost points. he did not just get to respend the points - on replacement stats or elsewhere.

 

he was not pleased but it really explained the disconnect between him and everyone else. They saw the trap as a loss - he saw it as "i get to respend"

[Rapier]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

I never liked Independent. I used it a time or two. I mean sometimes you are just strapped for points and have no choice. But one of the very first things you drop points on is to dump the Independent.

 

To take a power that is Independent means that it has to have a physicality. It has to have some kind of Focus Limitation. Having a Focus Limitation states that at some point you are going to lose the item's use. It might get stolen, broken or just out of power.

 

By taking Independent you are saying to the GM, 'please screw me like a [heh, I'll just delete that phrase now...use your imagination].' You might as well flush those points right down the toilet. Because once that focus is gone...so are those points. Sure, the GM will 99.9% of the time take pity on you and allow you to spend a buttload of game time 'replacing' it. But then, are you really being penalised for taking that -2?

 

The only time Independent was important was in those games where you were given an Equipment Pool. So the GM just gives you an extra 15 or 20 points and Independent is not needed.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Sure, the GM will 99.9% of the time take pity on you and allow you to spend a buttload of game time 'replacing' it. But then, are you really being penalised for taking that -2?

That just sounds like bad GMing. Taking spotlight time from everyone else to get your toy back? Hardly. A good GM may let you get it back, AFTER you buy off the Limitation and jump through some hoops in game, but making the whole party suffer, I don't think so.

[Lucius]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

To take a power that is Independent means that it has to have a physicality. It has to have some kind of Focus Limitation.

 

Actually, no, it doesn't. There was never a requirement to take Focus along with Independent.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an Uncontrolled Area Effect Palindromedary

[archermoo]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Huh. I would never let someone buy off the Independent Limitation. Once you take that Limitation, the points are no longer yours, they have been invested in the power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

I would allow a buy-off.

 

But I would require some forewarning - a lot actually, make it an in game reason why you've become personally invested in said ability/power/item/aspect/thing, and then I would remove it immediately and force all Gained XP into those points until you'd paid the debt - you're not growing in any other direction until Independent is gone.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Okay. Guilty. While I would take away things built with Independent, I did allow the character to put those points somewhere else. They just couldn't put them back into the same thing without really good story justification (finding the item again, or one just like it; proving himself to his god well enough to convincingly regain his favored status after a bad deed...). And since I rarely allowed characters to simply spend their points--or at least many of them--immediately (they had to give me some idea of what they were "working on", and that often took at least a game session or two to fit into the storyline unless it was between adventures), it was a penalty that was felt even though it wasn't permanently crippling.

 

A simple (non-Independent) Focus, though, they could always expect to get back without too much time or hassle. Usually I'd conveniently work it into the plot, or they'd be able to to back to their lab and get/build another one when there was a little down time, or whatever.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

Okay. Guilty. While I would take away things built with Independent' date=' I [i']did[/i] allow the character to put those points somewhere else. They just couldn't put them back into the same thing without really good story justification (finding the item again, or one just like it; proving himself to his god well enough to convincingly regain his favored status after a bad deed...). And since I rarely allowed characters to simply spend their points--or at least many of them--immediately (they had to give me some idea of what they were "working on", and that often took at least a game session or two to fit into the storyline unless it was between adventures), it was a penalty that was felt even though it wasn't permanently crippling.

 

I think somewhere along the way, someone suggested that if the points do come back they should come back at the same rate as BODY. (No bonuses for Regeneration; nice try.)

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

I must admit, I've only ever given Independent Foci to NPCs, since if they lose their item for good, they can just fade into the background and it's no biggie. PCs not so much.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

I like the usage of Independent to build that Star of Urizen artifact in the Mystic World. It wasn't a focus, so the power would be available to the character who possessed it even while astrally projecting (mirroring the behavior of its inspiration from the comics, the Eye of Agamotto), but if the source of its power decided the user wasn't living up to his end of the bargain it could stop working or even turn against him.

 

It also worked for things like permanent protective spells and wards that would continue on even after the caster died, but would partially deplete said mystic's power when cast.

[dmjalund]

Re: Independent limitation in 6E

 

the first sounds more like a Limited Control limitation (say -1/2) and/or potential side affect (Power used against owner)