6E1 & 6E2 help

[Jason_Sunday]

I have looked read thourgh 6E1 and looked over 6E2. I feel overwhelmed. I really don't know how I will ever grasp this system. I currently use Mutants and Masterminds for all my superhero needs, so some of it is kind of similar. I have read the Hero System vs Mutants and Masterminds thread and decided to give the Hero System a chance. It is hard for me to tell what is a Batman vs a Superman like level in power. How should I go about learning the system? :confused:There just seems to be so much info.

[Steve Long]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

Since this is a Discussion topic rather than a rules question, I've moved it so other folx can chime in.

[mayapuppies]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

Yay! I've been dying to get to answer this all morning. LOL

 

I have looked read thourgh 6E1 and looked over 6E2. I feel overwhelmed. I really don't know how I will ever grasp this system. I currently use Mutants and Masterminds for all my superhero needs, so some of it is kind of similar. I have read the Hero System vs Mutants and Masterminds thread and decided to give the Hero System a chance. It is hard for me to tell what is a Batman vs a Superman like level in power. How should I go about learning the system? There just seems to be so much info.

The first step is to buy the books. That mission is accomplished.

 

Now there is a lot to digest, it took me a while to go from the level/class everything is handed to (some say forced upon) you style of games to the wonderful wide-open toolkit that is Hero System. The reason for that is the brain...or more specifically the way it has been wired to think of game systems.

 

With Hero System you are free to design and develop your game. There is nothing telling you that you HAVE to do 'X' in order to acquire 'Y' and since you choose 'B' you are not allowed to have 'C'. There are no level progressions, there are no hard and fast rules for character progression or even power levels, since the points you build your characters on are highly flexible and arbitrary.

 

To be more specific, I can build Batman or Superman on the same amount of points then turn right around and develop James Bond or Conan or Elminster on those very same points. It's a matter of relativity.

 

If every normal person in your game is built on 150pts, then the superheroes must likely be built on significantly more than that, say 300pts. But if every normal person in your game is built on 50pts then the superheroes could reasonably be built on less.

 

The real trick to getting a handle on your campaigns and thus a handle on Hero System is decide what you want to accomplish with your first setting (or pick up one of the already established settings for an easy kick start) and then begin hitting the boards here for information. we're an easy to get along with group and you will quickly realize the flexibility of the Hero System as you receive a half dozen different (and legal) builds as answers to your questions.

 

And welcome aboard.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

First do not be overwhelmed. There is a lot to digest, so don't eat it all at once: start off with a taster.

 

I'd recommend anyone new to Hero to start playing before they start character building. There are example characters in the second book, and all the rules you need - which are not that complicated.

 

You need to know how to roll to succeed with skills, how to roll to hit in combat and how to apply damage. Grab a couple of characters and you and a mate can see who can knock the other out.

 

Once you get a feel for how Hero characters play, THAT is when I'd delve into the immensely powerful character creation system.

 

NB I have no idea how many points Batman is built on - he's beaten up Superman so many times

[Karmakaze]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

It is hard for me to tell what is a Batman vs a Superman like level in power.

 

One of the tricks with this is that Batman and Superman don't necessarily have different power levels. (I know, I know, Kryptonian vs. 'normal' Earthling... bear with me.) When Batman is in his own comic book, he deals with threats that Superman probably wouldn't bother with. Yet, when Batman and Superman are teamed up in Worlds Finest or the Justice League, Batman is able to defeat as many thugs and threaten as many supervillains as Superman is - he just uses more tools and less direct force. So Superman has spent his points on powers, and Batman's spent his on skills, contacts, and gadgets, but they can still be the same point-level.

 

To get a gut feel for how points and stats relate to power level, I'd refer you to the tables on SE1 p34 (Character Types Guidelines and Character Design Guidelines), SE1 p35 (Character Ability Guidelines) and SE1 p48 (Characteristics Comparison). Those make good guidelines to start with.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

re: Batman and Superman

 

There are versions of both characters posted on the board ranging in points from as low as 250 all the way up to 1000+. All are equally good builds if used in an appropriately powered game world.

[ideasmith]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

 

Now there is a lot to digest, it took me a while to go from the level/class everything is handed to (some say forced upon) you style of games to the wonderful wide-open toolkit that is Hero System.

 

Mutants and Masterminds does not have character classes, and Mutants and Masterminds 'character levels' are nearly identical to HERO System AP Maxima.

[mayapuppies]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

Mutants and Masterminds does not have character classes' date=' and Mutants and Masterminds 'character levels' are nearly identical to HERO System AP Maxima.[/quote']

Cool, then the transition should be easier. I know absolutely nothing of M&M.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

Cool' date=' then the transition should be easier. I know absolutely nothing of M&M.[/quote']

 

Nuts covered in chocolate, according to Google.

 

Sounds more like Southpark.

 

Hmm.

[NestorDRod]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

Nuts covered in chocolate, according to Google.

 

Sounds more like Southpark.

 

Hmm.

 

But hey, they melt in your mouth, not in your hand. It's good to remember that.

 

If I were to make a blanket comparison between M&M and Hero, it would be that M&M is still focused on emulating the "comic-book" genre, while Hero attempts to fulfill the "Quest For The Universal Game System."

 

Mechanically, Hero is a lot more concerned with the gears and wheels in the guts of the system, which is why I can understand that moving to it from M&M might be overwhelming...

[gojira]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

How should I go about learning the system? :confused:There just seems to be so much info.

 

 

That's normal. It IS a big system, and there's lots to learn. Frankly, most of us started on an earlier, simpler edition, and have built up understanding slowly. It's easier to grasp the fundamental concepts if you've seen them evolve over time.

 

The unfortunate bit is that one solution is just buy another book. You've got the BIG RULLE BOOK. There's a Basic Rule Book too, which is shorter, more compact and generally easier to start with. You might look into that.

 

Otherwise, we're a friendly bunch here. Feel free to ask questions. You can probably start with a few character questions, like "how do I make Batman" and "how do I make Superman."

 

 

As was pointed out, the equivalent of Levels in M&M is AP (Active Points) which is set differently for each genre. In the older rules (I don't have the new ones yet), there's a table in the Character Creation chapter with guidelines. It's called the Character Ability Guildelines Table. There are different levels like "Standard Heroic" and "High-Powered Superheroic".

 

Pick which one feels right to you. Modern Batman is probably around High-Powered Superheroic. Modern Superman is probably Very High-Powered or even Cosmically Powered (I haven't read his comic in a long while, however). Older versions will be less powerful. The original Batman might be a Standard Heroic (not even Superheroic) pulp character.

[dsatow]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

The easiest way to learn HERO is to play it. I've always found that a Heroic level game is the best way to indoctrinate yourself and remove powers out of the scenario. It then becomes fairly easy to learn the core system, how the dice work, etc. Add in superpower later once you have a feel for the base game system.

 

Example: Start with a martial arts heroic campaign, kind of like the karate kid level. Up the level of the martial art to next level which would be similar to all those 70s karate movies. Final push it to the Kung Fu fantasy level. From there you have everything you need to do supers.

 

The other way to play, is to join an established group. Most HERO players love to help others learn how to play their favorite game.

[archermoo]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

I'd recommend anyone new to Hero to start playing before they start character building. There are example characters in the second book, and all the rules you need - which are not that complicated.

 

Whereas my standard way of learning a new game is the dive in and make a character or two.

[JmOz]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

I would also recomend for your first super game (Probably a 6-8 session campeign) start with a team similar to the original X-man, on a low point campeign

 

See the original X-men you had 5 members, a small group, and one NPC (Xavier)

 

They all had fairly simple powers

 

Cyclops was a strait Energy Blaster

Marvel Girl was a no thrill Telekinetic

Angel, Winged Flight, so small secondary powers (Telescopic Vision I beleive)

Iceman, had Resistant Defence, EB, and an Entangle...IIRC, he actualy had the widest range I think

and Beast. What did beast do back then, large Feet/hands, high agility minor Super strength, not much there really

 

Easier to learn to play when the characters are simpler IMO anyways...

[Susano]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

I can always recommend my website (just google "Surbrook's Stuff") as a source of HERO System goodness for those wanting to see what things look like on the character end.

[Phil]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

I'll throw my two penneth in, and give you my thoughts on how to start getting to grips with things.

 

1. Firstly, my preference in learning a system is to make a character first and then play it later. Yours may be different. Do what you prefer, and ignore everyone's advice - except this, of course, that would be self defeating

 

3. Attributes & Skills - both M&M and Hero use attributes, and there's a lot of similarity here. While M&M uses d20+Char Bonus, Hero uses 3d6-Char/5. But the idea is the same, and there's a lot of the same characteristics too. In both games, skill levels simply adjust this dice roll, although M&M will tend to have higher skill levels while most Hero characters will only invest in the basic skills and maybe one or two levels.

 

Attributes are important because...

Strength sets your hand to hand damage and says how much you can lift

Dexterity affects lots of skills, and in earlier editions was also vital to combat accuracy (I confess, I'm not sure if this is true in 6th edition)

Constitution affects how easily you are Stunned and also some attacks like Poisons may attack vs. Con

Intelligence affects both Perception rolls and Skills

Ego is vital both to make and to resist Mental Attacks

Pre is your force of personality, used for social skills and Presence attacks (e.g. intimidation)

PD/ED represent your ability to ignore Physical and Energy damage respectively. In an average Superhero game where attacks are 8-12d6, these values would probably fall in the range of 12-28 (maybe lower if your character's theme is non-combatant or based on dodging)

Rec helps you heal when you're hurt or tired

Endurance represents your personal energy for powering attacks. If you've ever played any online RPGs, many of these have an Endurance or Mana type ability. This is the same sort of thing.

Body represents your Hit Points for killing attacks. When BOD = 0 you die

Stun represents your Hit POints for normal attacks. When Stun = 0 you're unconcious.

 

4. Attacking & Defending - in M&M, you know that you buy your Attack and Defence values. These are fairly generic, unless you buy Feats that modify them for specific abilities. Hero is similar. It uses Combat Values which apply for all of your attacks, unless you buy Combat Skill Levels (CSLs) which adjust this as you want. CSLs are a bit more flexible than most Feats though, in that you can often use them to increase Attack OR Defence OR Damage.

 

 

5. Damage - M&M has it's fairly unique Damage Saving Throw system, where you make a Toughness Save based on the damage value. Hero uses a much more traditional Hit Points system, which is only complicated by having two types of damage. Normal Damage mostly reduces your "Stun" attribute, while Killing Damage mostly reduces your "Body" attribute. M&M also has a distinction between Normal and Killing damage, but in Hero the two types of damage really do work differently.

 

6. Powers - At a "game philosophy" level, M&M and Hero are the same. They both focus on defining your superhero by chosing what Effects you want to create and then building the power. This is particularly true if you use the M&M Ultimate Power book. M&M is a little more abstracted, but the fact you know M&M should help you.

 

7. Power frameworks - this is where Hero gets complicated. In M&M you can create Power Arrays very cheaply and very simply. Hero has a similar framework called the Multipower, which is a little more complicated.

 

8. Speed - this is different from M&M, where every character gets to go once. In Hero, a round is made up of 12 segments, and each character can go a number of times equal to their speed attribute.

 

9. Advantages and Disadvantages - Like M&M, you can make powers more or less expensive by slightly changing how they operate. M&M's system for doing so is built around speed and clarity, but is based on Hero's original concept. This is where you can really have fun, making a power do exactly what you want. However, you may need to bear in mind some game terminology here relating to Cost - check out the rules relating to Active Cost and Real Cost to make sure you understand how these things link together.

 

9. Staggered Learning - here I bestow my advice upon you once more. I suggest you learn the game by creating some characters and running a few fights.

 

a) Create yourself 2 characters. Use around 350 points for each (the exact amount doesn't matter really), and just spend points on Attributes, Combat Skill Levels and some basic powers. Don't use Killing Attacks, or Power Frameworks, and ignore Endurance for now. Maybe try making one with a speed of 6 and one a Speed of 4, to see how Speed affects combat.

 

Create a third character and give him a killing attack. Bring him into the action and see how this can turn combat in different ways.

 

c) Look at the Endurance rules, and try and run your combat again using Endurance. See how this changes things and how you might create characters differently in the future.

 

d) Go back and look at Power Frameworks. Multipowers are the most common, so try and get your head around these. A gun with multiple settings or a utility belt with several gadgets on it are two possible explanations of multipower, but in essence it's the same as a M&M Power Array. Most multipowers are like Variable Arrays (i.e. +10 Array containing +10 Forcefield and +10 Blast, which allows you to have both powers running at the same time, up to a combined +10). However, multipowers may also be fixed, so that you can only have 1 power at a time. See if your two characters would benefit from being rebuilt using Multipowers or even Variable Power Pools.

 

e) Now for Power Advantages. Who wants a plain Ranged Attack, when you can add Armour Piercing or Area of Effect or all sorts of other constructions! Try a few of these out.

 

f) Keep going. Gradually add one or two rules on each time, and before you know it, it will all be clear as crystal!

 

In short, good luck and enjoy! I learned the Hero system in this way, just by getting my hex map out and running battles, and it's great fun in a sad lonely geek kinda way

[archermoo]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

Body represents your Hit Points for killing attacks. When BOD = 0 you die

 

Of note, when Body = 0 you are dying, but you aren't dead. You don't actually die until you reach Body = -{your starting Body}.

[Jason_Sunday]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

Thanks everyone for taking the time to try and help. I will finishing 6E2 and then try making a few characters and run a few fight scenes and see how it goes.

[Phil]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

Thanks everyone for taking the time to try and help. I will finishing 6E2 and then try making a few characters and run a few fight scenes and see how it goes.

Or just stop reading and get on with the character generation already

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

The Hero Designer software helps with character generation as well. Keeps the math in the background and lets you concentrate on concept. I highly recommend picking that up as well.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

Cool' date=' then the transition should be easier. I know absolutely nothing of M&M.[/quote']

 

To be honest when folk start talking about M&M, I automatically think of the WWII Minatures game Mustangs and Messerschmidts. So I keep getting visions of converting that game to hero (What can I say, I've been gaming for awhile )

 

As for the OP. Using a genre book and looking at the characters in those books are the best way to start gaming. Unfortunatly 6e Champions is still months away.

 

Also 6e changes character gen somewhat compaired to previous editions. So to use the existing hero resources on the web, you will have to do some slight conversions. That can be a bit daunting for someone who isn't conversant with the rules. It's easy to do the conversion, but as a new player you might not see how to convert as easily as an veteran player would.

[casualplayer]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

It can be daunting because most RPGs are Monogram Snap-tite models and HERO is virtually build-from-scratch, although imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. There are no bad questions and, with a brand new edition, you'll see questions coming from all quarters.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

It can be daunting because most RPGs are Monogram Snap-tite models and HERO is virtually build-from-scratch' date=' although imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.[/quote']

 

I've always described Hero as, "a box of Lego bricks."