CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Except that the average DEX in the CU is 20. Not 23.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The best way to show the era of the default 23 DEX is dead is to take the 39 pts that used to be budgetted for supers-minimum DEX and spend them more wisely, and by wisely I mean in a way that lets you whup on those still playing by old rules that don't apply any longer.

 

DEX is only for enhancing DEX-related skills and determining who goes first now. If those two things don't really matter to your character concept you may want to consider a DEX in the low to mid-teens. Slightly faster than a VIPER Agent should suffice for most.

Yeah, if a character really doesn't need a 14- DEX Roll for those Agility Skills, then 23 DEX doesn't really do that much that 13 DEX and +10 Lightning Reflexes doesn't also do for less.

[Peregrine]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

SUGGESTED RANGE.

 

not RAW.

 

DEFAULT range. Deviations from which are legitimately in houserules territory.

 

Understand me, houserules are not in any way a negative. But expecting published material to substantially deviate from the defaults (even suggested ones) is not realistic, IMO.

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

DEFAULT range. Deviations from which are legitimately in houserules territory.

 

Understand me, houserules are not in any way a negative. But expecting published material to substantially deviate from the defaults (even suggested ones) is not realistic, IMO.

 

NO!

 

Go read the RULES. The paragraph says Suggested

 

It happens to be the Champions **Universe** default ranges.

 

But that is one setting for a wide open genre with lots of space to play.

 

They are, for intents and purposes, as House Rule as well. Any parameters about what is "human" or "superhuman" or "powerful" or any label like that will be a Game/Setting Specific Parameter. Not A Rule.

 

So yes, I expect a Genre Book to look at deviating from suggested norms. I expect a Genre Book to tell me how to play in a range of sub-genres, a range of suggested parameters. I want Low Powered, High Powered, Normal. I expect a Genre Book to look at a variety of flavors. Not just one specific flavor mentioned in the Core Rules.

 

Not RAW. It's not even a Rule. It's a list of Guidelines. Helpful, but still not Rules.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Maybe Steve should give guidelines and/or sample characters for:

• Games where supers are above-normal only in characteristics covered by their shtick, and normal in the others.
  
• Games where supers have relatively high characteristics across the board.
  
• Games where few superheroes have significantly above-normal characteristics.
  

All of these conventions have ample precedent in the source material.

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I was reading about the optional versions of Pushing the other day when I had this idea: what if there was the suggestion that superheroes could use any and all of them at once?

 

The Human Torch really can perform that supernova in a 60 AP game and the Hulk really could hold up that mountain and so on and so forth.

 

But there needs to be something to counterbalance it and I have a proposed solution: Heroic Action Points!

 

What if it cost 1 HAP to use each version of Push?

 

Given the various suggestions, that would come to a possible +50 CP for -2 BODY, Drain CON 4d6, Drain STUN 5d6, 10 END, and 5 HAP, however they are generated.

 

Not too shabby for superheroics, I'd say.

[Tasha]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

They did, however, have a lot of violence and sex, and that's what matters.

 

JG

 

Actually I dropped the title when Comico died so I never did get to see what happened to the series under other publishers. The title had kind of jumped the shark before their original publisher went out of business. Though it was the first title that comes to mind where a group of Superheroes decide that the only way to deal with the Superprison Revolving door is to kill the Supervillains if they escape to do evil again.

 

This continued on with The Watchmen (now that I think of it) with many of the "heroes" deciding that killing millions of people is a small price (esp since it had already been done before they could prevent it) to pay for avoiding possible nuclear annihilation and creating lasting world peace.

 

Martial Law also killed his insane opponents. He hated them as much as he hated himself.

 

In "The Authority" they don't always kill their opponents, but they aren't afraid to do so if they "have" to.

 

Now "The Boys" is a more mainstream/updated/modern Martial Law. Where all other supers are degenerate frauds who work for a media conglomerate that exploit the supers for money. The Boys kill the ones that kill too many civilians or get too out of hand. Of course the greatest irony is that while "The Boys" hate supers, they themselves are super.

 

So talking about these dystopian Crapsack Worlds (to use a TV tropes term) would be a good thing. Also it would allow for the conversion of worlds like Underground

 

though I brought this up, and while I found many of the comics fascinating. I personally have no interest in gaming in one of these worlds. Though at least one recent poster to the champions forum was asking for info on "The Boys"

 

Tasha

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

OK, looks like it's time to take a little break, since this thread seems to have veered off-topic into discussion of The Elementals, arguments about campaign standards, and other things that are no help to me for writing Champions. I'll open it back up in a day or two and see if everyone's calmed down.

[Steve]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Heroic Action Points: This is one thing that I would like to see expanded upon when applied to superheroics. It would be helpful to have guidelines on using HAPs to better present superhero tropes and give players more control over the plotline when it comes to their character. Maybe some ideas on expanding HAPs for use in non-combat ways as well.

[torchwolf]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Heroic Action Points: This is one thing that I would like to see expanded upon when applied to superheroics. It would be helpful to have guidelines on using HAPs to better present superhero tropes and give players more control over the plotline when it comes to their character. Maybe some ideas on expanding HAPs for use in non-combat ways as well.

This can have any number of uses - I'd love to see some suggestions on how HAP can be used to expand or regulate the use of the Power Skill, for instance.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

This can have any number of uses - I'd love to see some suggestions on how HAP can be used to expand or regulate the use of the Power Skill' date=' for instance.[/quote']

 

I concur with this -- greater flexibility in improvised use of Powers is something I often hear the desire for among Champions players. Particularly those who favor systems which have that flexibility, notably Mutants and Masterminds.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The Power Skill and HAPs is already covered on APG 40; I don't expect to reprint that but I might refer to it.

[phookz]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Something that might help bring new players in would be a one-page summary of a brief combat. I seem to remember something like this from 4th, but something like a brief script of a GM and a couple of players entering a combat and completing a turn or so of it. Granted - for those of us that have played the game there isn't much value in this (but I always find them fun to read), but for the player/GM new to the system something like this could really help put the rules in context.

 

Champions 5E had some great information in it about creating adventures, but I'd like to see a little more exposition and hints on planning and creating sub-plots and story arcs. These seem so important to the superhero genre, more-so than other genres IMO.

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

There's a combat summary in the Core Rules, I'd hope a GENRE book wouldn't waste space on that kind of thing.

[JmOz]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing I do, that should be able to be incorporated into a expanded HAP (Disclaimor I use a luck die mechanic that is similar to but slightly different from HAP's) is to spend luck points to change the enviroment, small changes cost less points (1-2 a usefull and appropriate item is handy, 10 a small meteor falls from the sky and hits him on the head doing 3d6+1 damage)...I ripped the idea off from the old DC HEROS game put out by mayfair games, but modded it for hero

[CorpCommander]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

25 years later is Secret Wars still good? By that I mean given the ever rising bar and looking back, was the story, the dialog and the graphics of Secret Wars up to par? I saw it when it first came out (yes that makes me old now) and I wasn't into comics at all. I was in college. But I remember reading it and finding it interesting as my roommate was into it. He later convinced me to buy TMNT of which I have #1 through #12 in mint condition... the first and last comics I ever collected. Back when the Turtle's shtick was new it was good. Now its a bit of a predictable gag. So, with that in mind, does Secret Wars hold up? If so how do you fit something like that into a campaign?

[redwulfe]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

First I would like to apologize if I hit on something that has already been stated or answered, as I skimmed this post and decided to reply without fully reading it. Here is my take on what I would like to see. I will try to think of the main purpose of this book as an introduction of the genre to new players while I post.

 

Chapter One: The Superheroes Genre: The elements' date=' themes, tropes, and "bit" of the genre; major subgenres (Golden Age, Silver Age, Teen Champions, etc., etc.); mixing Champions with other genres and meta-genres.[/quote']

 

This seems very good. I liked it in the first book and think that it was very well written.

 

Chapter Two: Superhero Character Creation: Superhero archetypes (with some sample powers); a review of HERO System elements with any special notes or rules for the Superheroes genre; a discussion of superhero origins; a discussion of superteams.

 

I have heard complaints about this section especially the random generator. Though it simplified the time of creating a character most people did not use it as intended. I know this has been said before but I thought I would give my opinion for completeness, most players like a buffet style to creating there character where they pick and choose power from a list of options rather than a Russian roulette of you get get what you roll. I would probably move the Until superpower section to this section so the lists are beefier and give an examination of what each of what the archetypes are and what makes them what they are. Many people I have explained the game to did not even know what makes a brick a brick so this could possible be touched on. This is also where I would touch on the archetypes of special effects and teach the new player about them.

 

Chapter Three: Gamemastering Champions: Planning and running a Superheroes campaign; creating a Superheroes world; and so on. I expect this will be shorter than the equivalent 5E section because I swiped some chunks of it for 6E.

 

Here I would like to see the traditional story style for comic books and the way they broke down over the different ages. In most stories of tradition fiction and movies you have the exposition, rise of conflict and so on. how does this relate to telling stories in comics? Is there a possibility of putting a quick plot generator in here. As far as min campaigns go I would not want to see more than a list of champaign styles with a couple of sentences to a paragraph dedicated to each. i.e.

 

Behind enemy lines (GA/IA): you could base your campaign around characters in covert situations like undermining the Nazi war effort in a golden age game or the team may be a group of super-spies trying to end the cold war in a bronze age game. You could also set the campaign around a governmental top secret base that is trying to imprison mutants that the general population fears and loathes in an Iron age game.

 

I would also like to see a discussion on power levels and your game, from cosmic beings to vigilantes. as well as running campaigns that run with differing power levels within the group itself like the justice league story lines.

 

Finally and most importantly to me as a new player to your system I would like to see a discussion on how to make my favorite super hero into a champions character. I know that the online community helps out allot in this area but When I first started playing I didn't have access to this or the internet for that matter. My old group still does not have access to these resources. so a tutorial on the steps of converting heroes from comic to champions so I could take the juggernaut and have him face off against my party would have been very helpfully.

 

Chapter Four: The Champions: Five example heroes and their headquarters and resources; six sample villains. These will follow the Cryptic take on the characters' date=' naturally.[/quote']

 

I hate to say this but as a new player I would find this chapter to be only marginally useful. Seeing the sample characters is helpful but I would probably not use the Champaions universe as it is not well enough known. I want to play DC and Marvel, because that is what most comic book people know. So instead of giving the Champaions I would make generic versions of the most popular superheroes in those comics. I know that you can't say that this is the x-men and justice league but you can change the names. Though of us into comics can see the resemblance and change the names back if we want to. Please don't get me wrong I like the champions universe but it was not what got me into playing a superhero RPG. I really am not trying to step on anyones toes here I am just trying to see this from a new players perspective on what I would like to get from my comic book-genre book. I am buying Champaions Universe as a fully fleshed out comic book world, however. In all honesty I would rather see this books title changed to Super Hero and the CU book changed to Champions. But that is only my opinion as a person who has had to explain that champions is a genre book and not a world book to too many people.

 

Chapter Five: Champions Sourcebook: This is currently planned as five sections of out-of-the-box usable material to help GMs and players. I may have to trim some here' date=' though, if the book is running long. As it stands I'm thinking of: Powers (40 pages, one page for each major category in the USPD, with sample powers of that special effect); Gadgets (10-12 pages of various super-tech); Bases; Vehicles; and Characters (I take 20 major superhuman types and give each a two-page spread with a basic character sheet, and then sample powers to pick and choose from to fill it out, allowing you to quickly whip up all sorts of supervillains and such; also there's a section of generic thugs and minions).[/quote']

 

Like I said before I would like to the the the powers and USPD sections incorporated into the character creation chapter to make it feel more like a traditional superhero character creation. I would also like to see the 20 major superhuman types replace the champions section and see the champions in there universe book. I truly think gadgeteering could be covered in the archtype discussion. And with ultimate Base just coming out I am not sure it is needed here. Of course I haven't read your notes. With a vehicle manual coming out latter any vehicle discussion would just be replaced.

 

I really am liking the 6th ed stuff and Hero Games has generally out shined my expectations with there products so. I know this book will be great and I look forward to reading it.

 

Red

[lemming]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

25 years later is Secret Wars still good? By that I mean given the ever rising bar and looking back' date=' was the story, the dialog and the graphics of Secret Wars up to par? I saw it when it first came out (yes that makes me old now) and I wasn't into comics at all. I was in college. But I remember reading it and finding it interesting as my roommate was into it. He later convinced me to buy TMNT of which I have #1 through #12 in mint condition... the first and last comics I ever collected. Back when the Turtle's shtick was new it was good. Now its a bit of a predictable gag. So, with that in mind, does Secret Wars hold up? If so how do you fit something like that into a campaign?[/quote']

 

Secret Wars wasn't very good when it came out IMO. It wasn't completely horrible like II, but not good.

[gojira]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The Power Skill and HAPs is already covered on APG 40; I don't expect to reprint that but I might refer to it.

 

Hey that reminds me. Way back when, about two years ago I think, we had a discussion of HAP and SFX and how it compares in Hero to Mutants and Masterminds. What I recall is the M&M has a much more permissive system of "pushing" that allows superheroes to use their powers in novel ways much more than Hero System does. What I'd like to see is a discussion, and optional rules, for doing similar things in Hero.

 

Kind of like Fantasy Hero, which has a lot of crazy things one can do for spell systems, I'd like to see a range of optional rules for supers that a GM can use to make things more comic-book-like.

 

Here's some off the cuff suggestions by Y.T.:

 

1. Relax the restriction of Power Skill allowing players to use their powers in unusual ways, from "once" to "occasionally." Better, don't worry too much about what "occasionally" means unless it starts to affect play, and once character starts to overshadow others, and fun. Once other players seem to be having less fun because of one player's use of unusal powers, then it's time to step in an make his character pay some points.

 

2. Relax the restriction needing Power Skill at all. Use EGO instead of Power SKill, and use an extra End rule similar to Pushing. Remove the -1 per 10 AP penalty to the roll, too (or maybe use a flat penalty, like -2 to EGO rolls). Anyone can use their power in unusual ways with an EGO roll and paying some extra End. This would simulate a very comic-book-like environment, where players always have the option of doing something tricky with their powers. If a character has to pay an extra 1 END per 10 AP of the power for "pushing" that power to some unusual use, that might be enough to keep it in check. There's a bunch of other graduations that could be added here, like "extra time" to push powers to unusual use.

 

3. Inspirations: Here's another way to use Luck dice like HAPs. Rather than rolling your Luck dice, the player just keeps the dice handy. Then, when needed, the player "turns in" one or more dice to gain an effect for an entire Turn. This is a little less fiddly that having to keep track of individual pips, so it might be seen as "easier" by some folks.

 

A. Insight - for one Luck die, the player gains +2 to all Attack rolls for one Turn.

B. Lucky - for one Luck die, the player gains +2 to DCV for one Turn.

C. Tough - for one Luck die, the player gains +6PD/+6ED Combat Luck for one turn

D. Free! - for one Luck die, the player gains +20 STR to break free of Entangles, for one turn

F. Shake it Off - for one Luck die, the player recovers 6 Stun points.

G. Second Wind - for one Luck die, the player recovers 12 End points.

 

The player always retains the option of rolling some of their dice for pips, which then go into a pool to be used like regular HAPs. Every dice used for this purpose is "used up" and can't be use for the effects listed above.

 

I've tried to keep the actual cost of that list to be around 5 points. For example most of those are bought as One Continuing Charge for One Turn (-1 1/4), with an additional -1/2 for being one step less than One Charge per Day. I felt that one step less that once per day was a good simulation of what occurs in a play session. So the full limitation is -1 3/4, which is One Charge per Week, Last a Turn.

 

"Insight" for example is +2 with all combat, 16 AP, One Continuing Charge Per Week for One Turn, -1 3/4, for a real cost of 5.8 points. The other are similarily purchased. The +Recovery and +End doesn't use Continuing Charges because they fade naturally. The +Recovery is 2d6 Aid STUN, Standard Effect, Self Only -1/2, One Charge Per Week, -2 1/2.

 

If you desire more or less effect from Luck dice, adjust accordingly.

 

4. I'd also like to see a system of giving players Luck die in each scene, or each major scene at least. That way, they slowly build up their luck as they encounter various minions and other encounters. Then when the fight the Bad Guy De Jur, they have lots of extra luck to spend during the fight. These luck dice go away after the designated GM big fight, so use them up!

 

 

 

In summary, the idea here is to give players a specific list of options to use with superhero games. This way they don't feel that "the rules don't let me do that," and there's also a specific list that all GMs are also familiar with and can say "I don't want that" or "yes that's a good idea, I should allow that too."

 

I'd like to see a couple of pages. Some discussion, and then some pick-an-option from the list pages, like the specific examples of spell systems in Fantasy Hero. It's easiest on the players that way.

 

If anyone else has some suggestions for new ways to use Luck or HAP, please feel free to add to this list.

[gojira]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing I do' date=' that should be able to be incorporated into a expanded HAP (Disclaimor I use a luck die mechanic that is similar to but slightly different from HAP's) is to spend luck points to change the enviroment, small changes cost less points (1-2 a usefull and appropriate item is handy, 10 a small meteor falls from the sky and hits him on the head doing 3d6+1 damage)...I ripped the idea off from the old DC HEROS game put out by mayfair games, but modded it for hero[/quote']

 

 

This, I like a lot!

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Something just now occurred to me that I think would be fitting for... well, I'm not sure whether Chapter One or Chapter Three, but I'd put in Three.

 

Basically, superhero worlds are notable for their Grand Cosmic Beings, the ones that are little more than simple embodiments of concepts. Marvel's are probably the most distinctive and memorable, ranging from Galactus to the Living Tribunal, though DC also has its share. As you can guess, they're generally characters of such scope that no character sheet (in Hero System or any other) would likely do them justice; they're essentially just Sapient Plot Devices.

 

Three or four paragraphs on handling such beings in a game, for those GMs who want to use them, would be very handy.

[James Gillen]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Something just now occurred to me that I think would be fitting for... well, I'm not sure whether Chapter One or Chapter Three, but I'd put in Three.

 

Basically, superhero worlds are notable for their Grand Cosmic Beings, the ones that are little more than simple embodiments of concepts. Marvel's are probably the most distinctive and memorable, ranging from Galactus to the Living Tribunal, though DC also has its share. As you can guess, they're generally characters of such scope that no character sheet (in Hero System or any other) would likely do them justice; they're essentially just Sapient Plot Devices.

 

Three or four paragraphs on handling such beings in a game, for those GMs who want to use them, would be very handy.

 

This is what M&M calls "Power Level X."

 

JG

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Over in the "Sixth Edition Showcase #7" thread, I brought up how, possibly, the Time Limit Advantage could possibly be used (or modified) to build characters with powers that are available over only a fixed period of time, as with Green Lantern, Hourman, Roger Ramjet, or even Popeye. It'd be very nice to see this in Chapter One (if you haven't done it already).

 

I'd also like to see a few specific things exemplified in the sample characters, specifically the above Time Limit structure, AOE: Trail, and the practice of building a character with less than the maximum stated Matching Complications. But that's just a more or less personal request.

[Matt Holck]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I know that one can get continuing charges with extra-time

[Guest dan2448]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I thought that I might briefly comment on Steve's explanation in his initial post on this topic that he is starting with the 5e text and that, "a lot of it probably won't change at all."

 

I am of two minds about this to be honest, for whatever that's worth. On the one hand, I thought that 5e "Champions" was far and away the best survey of the super hero genre for table-top role-playing games ever published. It dramatically exceeded my expectations. So in many respects I am hard pressed myself to suggest too many specific changes or deviations that I think should be made in 6e. (Indeed, some of that text was taken more-or-less directly from, among other sources, 1982's "Champions II.")

 

But by the same token, the less that is changed in the 6e version, the less likely I am to buy it immediately upon release. Now, since I've been buying Champions game books since 1983, I will doubtlessly buy the 6e "Champions" book some day no matter what, even if the only changes were a new cover and a new copyright notice. But the less that is changed, the more likely I am to wait and to try to, for example, get a better deal from a re-seller on ebay. And that would be less financially advantageous to DoJ.

 

If others feel similarly, I suppose that the business decision (as distinct from the artistic decision) about how much to change in 6e "Champions" may come down to what percentage of the target market for 6e is new players (who wouldn't know if the text was little changed from 5e), versus existing "Champions" players who already own 5e "Champions."