Photographic Reflexes

[HollowOne]

There have been a few characters in comics and shows that possess this ability that is often referred to as photographic reflexes or adoptive muscle memory or the like. If there anyone who doesn't know, what this ability entails is the person is able to gain the abilities of someone just by watching them. However, this isn't the case with superpowers, just physical skills like playing the piano, fighting, acrobatics, and the like. Taskmaster is the most well known character with this ability.

 

I'm rather new to the 6th edition rules, so I was hoping people who have a better grip on it could help me figure out how to properly make this power work in a Champions or superhero based HERO System game.

[Naanomi]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

Probably a Variable Power Pool of skills, martial arts, and 'super' skills. Limited based on how long the skills are retained.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

Probably a Variable Power Pool of skills' date=' martial arts, and 'super' skills. Limited based on how long the skills are retained.[/quote']

This is pretty close to how I would do it with the exception that as frameworks cannot contain skills and talents, I would change the VPP to Multiform only (with each form representing the same character but with copied skills).

 

For example:

"Photographic Reflexes"; VPP, Cosmic (+2) One Type of Power (Multiform) (-1/2), Multiform can only be used to transform into the base character plus any copied skills, martial arts, talents, and "super skills" of the target (-1/2)

[Naanomi]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

meh Id just allow the skills/talents in there and watch it carefully for exploitation. If one would allow a VPP of multiforms, skills/talents VPP seems less dangerous.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

For example:

"Photographic Reflexes"; VPP, Cosmic (+2) One Type of Power (Multiform) (-1/2), Multiform can only be used to transform into the base character plus any copied skills, martial arts, talents, and "super skills" of the target (-1/2)

 

Assuming a 400 point 6e character, this costs 80 points for the pool, plus 60 points for the control cost. For 140 points, he could probably just buy all the skills. Or he could have a Multiform with 4,096 different forms - probably more than enough to run through the entire campaign adopting the desired skills. Or adopting any other abilities he wants, for that matter.

 

Assuming I were prepared to allow the resuly, a character who can duplicate these various skills at will, the VPP seems the appropriate mechanism to use.

[fbdaury]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

Actually done in the 5th and 6th edition powers books as a VPP with special GM permission required.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

Just hold some points in reserve on character creation and spend them to 'instantly learn' physical skills the person observes, plus Universal Jack of All Trades for the 'physical' professional skills picked up. Maybe some levels to represent versatility. No need for squeaky rules tweaking, it's just letting the character spend points more freely, and how many of us are really strict about that? I know I'm flexible with 'I learned that a long time ago, it just never came up before' or 'I've been training for that in my downtime' or even 'I would have got that in the first place because it makes sense for my character, but I forgot'. The only difference between Taskmaster and the people he's copying is the special effect of how he learns.

[Mathew]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

This is pretty close to how I would do it with the exception that as frameworks cannot contain skills and talents, I would change the VPP to Multiform only (with each form representing the same character but with copied skills).

 

For example:

"Photographic Reflexes"; VPP, Cosmic (+2) One Type of Power (Multiform) (-1/2), Multiform can only be used to transform into the base character plus any copied skills, martial arts, talents, and "super skills" of the target (-1/2)

 

I don't have 6th editon, but I think in earlier editions you can use skills with GMs permission. I'd allow it if the function of the pool was specificlly to create ONLY skills. So you couldn't be allowed a pool that could do powers AND skills, but you could make one that had just skills, since that's the theme of the character.

 

Of course there are other ways of doing this power... for instance you could mix Images and Invisible Power Effects Transform to make your hero able to copy any outcome he has observed. For instance if he copies a safe-cracker opening s safe, make the illusion he undid the safe too and then transform the safe from closed to open. If he copies playing a piano then make the illusion he's playing it. If he copies a cooking skill, transform the food ingredients into the finished meal he copied.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

The question I would have to ask is: how likely is the character to learn something new at this point? If they're anything like the Taskmaster, then they know about their power and they're going to seek out as many displays as they can, which in the modern media age is vastly easier than anything Tasky had to do. Hell, spending a day on YouTube will give the character most martial arts, parkour, sports and circus skills. While the special effect of learning what he sees is important, what else is there to see, realistically? Even a semi-dedicated hero (or villain?) will have learned nearly every physical skill they can, especially when they don't have to study or practice.

 

I think you should just give the character the skills from the beginning. Add some skill levels (or similar) for Unknown Skills just in case he sees anything new.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

The question I would have to ask is: how likely is the character to learn something new at this point? If they're anything like the Taskmaster, then they know about their power and they're going to seek out as many displays as they can, which in the modern media age is vastly easier than anything Tasky had to do. Hell, spending a day on YouTube will give the character most martial arts, parkour, sports and circus skills. While the special effect of learning what he sees is important, what else is there to see, realistically? Even a semi-dedicated hero (or villain?) will have learned nearly every physical skill they can, especially when they don't have to study or practice.

 

I think you should just give the character the skills from the beginning. Add some skill levels (or similar) for Unknown Skills just in case he sees anything new.

 

This would probably work...you might also add cramming as well.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

I have built this power before with Cramming, but using some house rules. Still, I will throw it out in case it helps. The problem with using Cramming normally for this kind of thing is that Cramming will only give you an 8- roll and you can't apply levels. Our house rule is that if you have Cramming x2 and put both Cramming slots toward a single skill, you can have the learned skill on 9+(CHA/5)-. Depending on how fast you want the muscle memory to develop, you might also apply Rapid borrowed from the Enhanced Senses (3pts for x10 learning speed). So the power looks like this:

 

Muscle Memory Skill: Cramming x2, with Rapid (x10), only after witnessing skill performed (-½), both Cramming skills must be used together (-¼), Active cost: 16, Real cost 9

 

You could replace the "Cramming must be used together" limitation with Linked on one of the Crammings, but the cost is the same. I had a telepath with a very similar ability who could duplicate any INT-based skill by reading the mind of someone who already had it, and I have to say it came in pretty handy at times.

[Epic Legand]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

I always liked to show the power as VPP, only to copy skills seen(skills/talents/powers that are skills)(lim worth only -1/4), with the 2X adder for at will(cosmic). If you do not allow powers...how do you explain glidding(with focus cape) or missil deflection?. Some people don't like it, becuse you always have something to contribute. But if limited to whats you can see...gotta find someone with acro and 6 extra points in it before you can say... I dump all my points into acro. Plus, push him out of a plane with no parachute...not so super after all. If you are building someone like this, you will have to buy lots of skill anyway( how about driving like Marrio, while shooting like punisher?)a small pool will cover lots of weird skills, but buy most of what you use day to day so it is always available.

[fbdaury]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

Reason I would still do it as VPP is simple- a starting character will be able to acquire new skills faster than points and to buy everything individually A LOT of points would be needed , even for a more experienced character it would be way too costly- Taskmaster, if made on seperate skills would be over 1000 points easy, even if you did much of his abilities through super skill MP or something like that.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

The real issue with allowing the use of a VPP to build abilities for a character like Taskmaster is one of "why does he get to if no one else does?".

It's essentially the same argument for not allowing Superman to purchase super senses as part of a power framework (which I happen to agree with).

 

re: Taskmaster

He is actually a character in the same vein as Rogue (X-Men) or Parasite (Superman Villain) or Amazo (Justice League Villain) if not the same power level.

The best way to build all of those characters is to use a combination of VPP with Multiform.

This provides a method to track the limits of what abilities the characters can and cannot copy/absorb simultaneously.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

I tend to agree with Hyper-man, a VPP of skills is simply far too cheap for this. Option A is to buy him every "standard" skill, and then PS: Things He's Seen People Do 27-. Option B is the multiform/VPP, which also has the important advantage of letting him copy super-skills. Option C is to start throwing houserules at it.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

For Taskmaster, you buy:

1. Levels of Hand to Hand damage, with an appropriate limitation(only to emulate X (or somesuch))

2. Overall levels, same limitation

3. KS: Martial Arts, Acrobatics, Archery, Shield-throwing, etc.

4. A bunch of Weapon familiarities

5. Multiple levels of cramming, "only for physical skills", plus similarly limited Eidetic Memory

6. A VPP specifically for emulating learnable physical talents, not physical skills

7. A "Comic Book Martial Arts" package, including all of the standard maneuvers(items 1 and 2 and 6 are for covering specialized or unique martial maneuvers)

 

Should about cover it.

[dmjalund]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

If I were to have a VPP for skills. I would have increased skill costs as inspired by the rules for skill levels as powers

[fbdaury]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

I tend to agree with Hyper-man' date=' a VPP of skills is simply far too cheap for this. Option A is to buy him every "standard" skill, and then PS: Things He's Seen People Do 27-. Option B is the multiform/VPP, which also has the important advantage of letting him copy super-skills. Option C is to start throwing houserules at it.[/quote']

 

Actually, the best option is the one you haven't mentioned- the official one, from the 5th and 6th ed power books, which is the Skill Vpp- you may not like it, but it is the easiest and most elegant way to model the effect.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

Actually' date=' the best option is the one you haven't mentioned- the official one, from the 5th and 6th ed power books, which is the Skill Vpp- you may not like it, but it is the easiest and most elegant way to model the effect.[/quote']

 

Builds from the USPD (the one you are referencing, Reflex Memory, is on page 266) are not official in the same sense as the Ultimate series or the APG. They are essentially suggested builds and/or house rules. Reflex Memory even states implicitly that GM permission is required for its use (arguably making it a house rule). Mimicking variant 7 on the same page (essentially the full Parasite/Rogue version of what I suggested) has no such warning included.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

I'd just call this an in-game excuse to spend XP in mid-game. VPPs don't really work because the character will lose access to some skills while using others, whereas photographic reflexes are essentially permanent; you don't lose the skill, ever. So, when the PC sees someone performing a skill, he can drop XP on it to get it at its full skill roll instead of starting with familiarity.

 

Add some combat skill levels that only work against people he's studied, because he knows their moves, and I think you've got it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

Marvel's Taskmaster does appear to have limits to what he can copy simultaneously. He's not just 'spending XP' to match everyone he's ever seen.

 

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taskmaster

Taskmaster has had his scientists duplicate versions of a variety of weapons used by Marvel characters, which he can use with nearly as great facility as their respective owners. In the past, he carried duplicates of Daredevil's multi-purpose billy club, Hawkeye's trick arrows and bow, and Captain America's throwing shield. He also carried a 36-inch sword (in emulation of the Black Knight), a lasso, and a Colt .45 semi-automatic pistol (in emulation of the Punisher). He has been seen throwing "crescent darts" during his bout with Moon Knight, in imitation of Moon Knight's fighting methods[volume & issue needed] (However, Taskmaster has said he prefers not to use Moon Knight's style, since Moon Knight would rather take a punch than dodge it).

 

This seems to imply that if he copies Moon Knight's fighting style he suffers the consequences of it not being as defensive oriented as others he might copy. This sounds a lot like the built-in limitation of the full Mimicking variant 7 from USPD that I mentioned earlier. I'm referring to published examples of when Parasite steals Superman's powers he also gets his weakness to Kryptonite. The only way to make something like that work is a VPP of Multiforms.

[Cardinal]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

While I agree with your analysis with respect to parasite, Taskmaster not liking to use Moon Knight's style is not a matter of taking on a complication. Rather it is a case that moon knight does not use any levels for DCV and his martial arts maneuvers are all items like offensive strike, etc. As such, when he attacks he has a very high OCV, but low DCV.

 

This is simply reflective of the variety of styles that you can reflect with a small number of maneuvers plus different allocations of levels.

[JPicasso]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

This might be better balanced if the character could only have x points of skills / MA and would require him to re-observe someone exhibiting those skills (in real life, no videos) for a certain time. I'm not familiar with this task master, but it sounds like he has powers that "as written" are too unbalancing for an RPG.

[ned-kogar]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

If this was for a PC, I think it would be much more fun to start with a relatively blank slate, and see them expand their capabilities in play. It would be nice double-edged motivation: I want to be able to fight like him, so I'd better go and fight him...

 

Obviously, Taskmaster can learn other people's styles from viewing footage of them - I'd set some kind of limit on this - only face-to-face observation / interaction can allow full mastery of the style.

 

Here are some other mechanisms to consider, in addition to those already suggested. Excuse the lack of costs/detail, I'm not near my books.

 

Absorption vs Hand to Hand Combat Attacks: points go to DCV and OCV: only vs Person who did damage (-1)

[this would be a character who learns best from his failures, but quickly adapts to them... each times he takes damage from an opponent, he learns to counter them]

 

Buying Strength (or HA), HKA, RKA, Blast with Variable Advantage: +1/2 max Advantage, limited to physical qualities of weapons (+3/4) - to cover most weapons he could carry.

 

Ambidextrous

 

Analyze Combat Technique

 

Penalty Skill levels vs Surprise Manouevres and to offset Unfamiliar Weapons (each only vs. people he's met/studied)

 

Shape Shift vs Sight and Touch groups; Imitation; Instant Change; Only to alter gait, fighting style, mannerisms (-2)

 

AND See the APG for an expanded version of Cramming and - even better - the expansion of Universal Translator into other 'Universals', including True Jack of All Trades..!

 

Ned

[Matt Holck]

Re: Photographic Reflexes

 

though I haven't used it

I am intrigued by the 6th edition advanced player guilds solutions

 

the problem with using skills in variable power pools and multipowers

is most times skills aren't applied simultaneously but only when a situation calls for it.

The infrequency of a skills application is already reflected in the skills low cost (3 usually).

So placing skills in a variable power pool or multipower redundantly cuts the cost on an ability that is already infrequent.