Blocking and relative strengths

[saiyanslayer]

I'm starting a new game soon that's a combination of Arthurian legend and Anime rules (yes, scary isn't it?). I have plans to modify blocking to have it work up only up to the strength of the blockee, +10 Str. So if a Str 20 person blocks, they can block up to 6d6 attack without problems.

 

Has this been mentioned before? The main reason I'm adding it is to encourage players to use some of their powers or maneuvers more defensively.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

I apply a -1 OCV to the blocker for each 5 points of strength the attacker has above the blocker

[Dino]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

Works for straight up resistance blocks like a boxer or someone using a large shield, but defensive blocks (like you would see in Kenjutsu or most "soft" martial arts) shouldn't be affected by relative STR as the goal is to redirect the attack rather than stop it. Also, how is making blocks less effective going to encourage players to be more defensive? Seems like the thing to do is crank your damage as high as you can so that your opponent cannot block it and go for a first strike.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

Has this been mentioned before? The main reason I'm adding it is to encourage players to use some of their powers or maneuvers more defensively.

 

I know what you are talking about. I like the rule about throwing, but they never mentioned per se a rule about blocking. Can Batman block Superman ? I came up with a house rule (though sadly never got to play it ) was use the same formula for throwing except, the if the strength goes past the pushed, then the blocker takes half damage.

 

I.e. Ninja has 15 str. If he blocks anyone including 25 str - no damage. If he blocks Chesire Cat with 30 str, then he takes half damage or 3d6. Now I was still going to allow the person to apply their normal defense, but I could see them take it nnd also. Good Luck.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

Whether or not Batman can Block a punch from Superman has a lot more to do with abilities besides just super-strength possessed by Superman (super-speed being a prime example).

It's also worth noting that a Hero System Block does not have to look like a 'block'. It can look like a 'dodge'. It just happens to have a game mechanical difference from a Hero System Dodge (Primarily being the potential to gain 'initiative' vs. an otherwise higher DEX attacker).

 

If anything, this kind of house-rule would probably discourage the use of Block.

Many 'soft' martial art styles make it clear that the STR of the attacker is virtually irrelevant when attempting to re-direct (Block) their attack.

I would instead recommend building a Naked Indirect Advantage 'Talent' for characters who have seemingly 'un-blockable' attacks.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

dodge works great for block unless the character isn't the target

[ayinde]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

i like the idea but mabey make it only effect the reg block but not martial block

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

dodge works great for block unless the character isn't the target

What?

[Matt Holck]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

in games I play

A character can get in between an the attacker and the target and block a HTH attack.

If a character engages and energy projector in HTH, he/she is allowed to block their ranged attacks against themselves and others.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

Works for straight up resistance blocks like a boxer or someone using a large shield' date=' but defensive blocks (like you would see in Kenjutsu or most "soft" martial arts) shouldn't be affected by relative STR as the goal is to redirect the attack rather than stop it. Also, how is making blocks less effective going to encourage players to be more defensive? Seems like the thing to do is crank your damage as high as you can so that your opponent cannot block it and go for a first strike.[/quote']

 

Seems to me that the answer for most defenders will be to forget Block, and focus on Dodge instead. It applies against all attacks (ranged and HTH; no degredation for multiple attacks) and a high OCV defeats it and Block at the same scale, and Dodge starts with a 3 CV advantage over Block (=3 DCV vs +0 OCV/DCV, or +5 DCV vs +2 OCV and DCV for the martial versions). If I have to add "and a high power attack can still be Dodged but can't be blocked", what is the point of investing points to be good at Blocking or using a phase to Block instead of Dodge?

 

If you see the issue as so impacting on "realism" that you cannot live without such a house rule, I say go for it - but be aware that you are much more likely to simply remove Block entirely than to make it something more in tune with the genre/game and fun to use.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

How about a house ruling that a Block requires the character to use their STR, and would cost END? (Probably only 1 END, since a 10 STR character can Block effectively.) You could then build a Block with the, "STR+" element (which costs no END) to reflect the Blocker not needing to use their own STR to Block.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

Whether or not Batman can Block a punch from Superman has a lot more to do with abilities besides just super-strength possessed by Superman (super-speed being a prime example).

It's also worth noting that a Hero System Block does not have to look like a 'block'. It can look like a 'dodge'. It just happens to have a game mechanical difference from a Hero System Dodge (Primarily being the potential to gain 'initiative' vs. an otherwise higher DEX attacker).

 

If anything, this kind of house-rule would probably discourage the use of Block.

Many 'soft' martial art styles make it clear that the STR of the attacker is virtually irrelevant when attempting to re-direct (Block) their attack.

I would instead recommend building a Naked Indirect Advantage 'Talent' for characters who have seemingly 'un-blockable' attacks.

 

Well just for argument sake if Batman can block at the same speed as Superman, Supermans strength would still crush Batman's arm.

 

As to a block can look like a dodge, personally I don't allow that, a block is a block and a dodge is a dodge. But that is just me.

 

And lastly, I do practice soft blocks or we call them parries in Hapkido. And I can tell you from experience you do a certain level of strength to move the arm, or you better to be able to move your body around the strike.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

...

As to a block can look like a dodge, personally I don't allow that, a block is a block and a dodge is a dodge. But that is just me.

...

 

Which is fine as a house rule for a realistic heroic game.

However, in a supers setting reasoning from effect should be paramount and allowing a Dodge (Hero maneuver) look like a block or visa versa is just one aspect of that (the multitude of possible sfx for EB's are another).

[Matt Holck]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

one could buy AofE only to suppress attack damage from selecter opponents

[Panpiper]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

I have extensive martial arts training and can answer this with some authority. The way a block works in most martial arts is such that even if the punch being thrown was from the strongest being imaginable, the block would still work, but instead of moving the attacking arm, it would move the one blocking so as to avoid the punch. This is not the same thing as a dodge, as the movement is very specifically focused upon the punch being blocked.

 

Note that this is to some extent dependent upon the style of the blocker. If the blocker has studied an extremely 'hard' style that relies upon strength for damage and other techniques, their block may in fact be insufficiently flexible to avoid a stronger attack. But most martial artists would simply find their block moving 'them' rather than the attacker and achieve the same end of not being on the receiving end of the punch.

[Hierax]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

Yeah, that matches up with my real life martial experience also.

 

But if cinematicaly the GM wants something else that makes STR a factor, then go for it. The important thing is you get the game you want.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

I have extensive martial arts training and can answer this with some authority. The way a block works in most martial arts is such that even if the punch being thrown was from the strongest being imaginable, the block would still work, but instead of moving the attacking arm, it would move the one blocking so as to avoid the punch. This is not the same thing as a dodge, as the movement is very specifically focused upon the punch being blocked.

 

Note that this is to some extent dependent upon the style of the blocker. If the blocker has studied an extremely 'hard' style that relies upon strength for damage and other techniques, their block may in fact be insufficiently flexible to avoid a stronger attack. But most martial artists would simply find their block moving 'them' rather than the attacker and achieve the same end of not being on the receiving end of the punch.

 

 

sounds like that block would involve contact moving with the fist rather than against it

would such a block allow a martial artist to protect others from Grond's fists?

[lemming]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

sounds like that block would involve contact moving with the fist rather than against it

would such a block allow a martial artist to protect others from Grond's fists?

 

In the world of comic book physics, of course. In the terms of something slightly more realistic, the block's special effect would involve redirecting the target instead of the punch.

 

Another person with MA experience here, but blocks are hardly ever static anyway. There's more than just an arm or whatever blocking the attacking appendage, etc... There's a lot of complex actions going into a series of attacks and defenses that are pretty much a larger pattern.

 

You're trying for realism in something that has to boil a complex set of maneuvers down to a couple die rolls. Not to mention, comic book physics...

[Matt Holck]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

Another person with MA experience here, but blocks are hardly ever static anyway. There's more than just an arm or whatever blocking the attacking appendage, etc... There's a lot of complex actions going into a series of attacks and defenses that are pretty much a larger pattern.

 

what actions?

[mallet]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

I can see how in some situations the GM might rule that a STR check might be needed to block a stronger opponents attack, but that should be on a case by case bases, not a hard and fast rule.

 

For example: A Boxer blocks by holding up his arms and "soaking" the attackers hit. That's what blocking is in the Boxing Martial Art. So, well, sure, a normal person trying to block a punch from a Giant Robot that way is going to get creamed. The GM should rule that the block doesn't work in that instance. But in most normal fights, human against human, it should work fine even if the STR stats are 5-10 points different.

 

In fact this is a good thing and should happen more often. Not all blocks or attacks or maneuvers should work against all opponents. The GM should always be on the look out for reasons why something might not work (or might work extra well) in combat. This is realistic and can be fun, with the players having to learn and adapt to fight different things in different ways.

 

In the example above, the Boxer trying to block the robots punch will quickly learn from his mistake and have to adapt and try something different in order to win the fight. He can't just Block, Punch, block, punch... as normal. He'll have to improvise.

[KA.]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

I always think of it like this . . .

 

You are out in the country when your car breaks down.

You spot a farmhouse in the distance.

Between you and the house is a barbwire fence.

After walking twenty or thirty yards along the fence, you spot a gate.

You go through the gate, close it back, and begin to walk toward the farmhouse.

When you are near the middle of the field, you spot a very big cow.

With horns!

It begins moving toward you, slowly at first, but then picking up speed.

Realizing that you cannot possibly outrun it, you decide to wait until it is running right at you, and then try to get the heck out of the bull's way by any means necessary.

That is what I consider a Dodge.

A Martial Dodge is the same basic thing, but with a bit more style and a better chance of success.

 

Now consider a bullfighter.

He is most likely not any stronger than you.

He is certainly nowhere near as strong as the bull.

He does not have the physical power to shove the bull to the side.

However, during a bullfight, he uses his exceptional skill to not only get out of the way of the bull's charge, but position himself to counterattack with the sword.

That is, to me, the essence of a Block.

It is not "I am strong and I can let an attack bounce off me, or stop it with force, and then hit back."

It is "I am a skillful enough combatant that I can avoid this attack and place myself in a position for a successful counterattack."

That is why it is based on OCV and not DCV (at least in the versions I have played, I don't know what 6E has done to it).

It is using your skill to not get hit, and to be ready to hit back.

 

Just my opinion,

 

KA.

 

P.S.

On the other hand, in a sword and sorcery setting, if you see it as more of a "maces bashing against shields" thing where the big burly Black Knight can

smash his way past the feeble guard of Percy the Squire, then have at it. That is why Hero is made to be flexible, so you can end up with the game you want.

[dmjalund]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

I think non-,artial blocks should take strength into account, and a Martial Block might - but only if you are using it to do something other than just evade the punch WDYT?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

Maybe Block should be renamed "Frustrate Incoming Attack" to satisfy the "block always involves interposition of something between you and the attack" theory.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

I can see how in some situations the GM might rule that a STR check might be needed to block a stronger opponents attack, but that should be on a case by case bases, not a hard and fast rule.

 

... as normal. He'll have to improvise.

 

I agree but would have to say that my scales are often tipped by mass issues

 

 

I always think of it like this . . .

 

However, during a bullfight, he uses his exceptional skill to not only get out of the way of the bull's charge, but position himself to counterattack with the sword.

That is, to me, the essence of a Block.

 

(/SIZE]

 

OK ...

but maybe make a presence attack to impress the bull into charging the cape.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Blocking and relative strengths

 

Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx