Epic level Champions

[assault]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Green Arrow is fine. Sure, Batman is better than he is at pretty much anything he can do, but he's got a coolness factor and an Atomic Warhead Arrow. And he's dating the hot blonde.

 

Actually, she's probably the lowest powered member of the team. Particularly before she developed her canary cry back in the 70s.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Well, I'd also point out that, technically, you could have characters with different power levels who were built on the same number of points--Batman comes to mind here, since he's probably throwing attacks several DC weaker than other JLAers, but he has a ton of skills, gadgets, perks, etc. and all that stuff costs points too.

[Tasha]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

One thing that I would like to see in any Epic Champions book is making the character. What I have always struggled with after a champions character goes above 14DC is how the other stats should be set so combat works. ie What Con, Defenses etc one should have. I guess I could figure it out now, but it's always nice to see this kind of stuff talked about in the supplement. I was actually pretty annoyed that Galactic Champs basically ignored this stuff. How does one structure such a game and how does it effect gameplay. How to make various point levels work and things like that.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

I have to weigh in with Tasha on this one. Sure, Galactic Champions had characters lobbing humongous DCs around... and tissue-paper defences.

Oops, there goes the arch-villain in Phase 12. Phase 2 next Turn, he's out of the running. Battle to save Planet Earth over & done in @5 seconds.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

One thing that I would like to see in any Epic Champions book is making the character. What I have always struggled with after a champions character goes above 14DC is how the other stats should be set so combat works. ie What Con' date=' Defenses etc one should have. I guess I could figure it out now, but it's always nice to see this kind of stuff talked about in the supplement. I was actually pretty annoyed that Galactic Champs basically ignored this stuff. How does one structure such a game and how does it effect gameplay. How to make various point levels work and things like that.[/quote']

 

A good rough rule is defense+con =+ 3 or 4 per extra d6, in order that the average attack doesn't auto-stun PCs and NPCs built to the same point level. Of course, now that there are a number of different defenses, it's trickier. In a 10 DC game with max defense set to 2.5 x DC, minimum defense set to 1.5 x DC, and average defense set to 2 x DC, you get a defense range from 15 to 25, which means the average attack will do 10 to 20 stun. If you follow that model, then defense for a 20 DC game would either be between 30 and 50 defense, letting 20 to 40 stun through, or between 50 and 60, letting 10 to 20 stun through. For a 30 DC game, the two possible ranges would be 45 to 75, letting 30 to 60 stun through, or between 85 and 95, letting 10 to 20 stun through. In the alternative, one could set the lower level and permit the use of damage reduction or damage negation to level things off(in fact, one could have an enormously high-powered game where everybody has 10-30 levels of damage negation, so against each other they're only throwing 10-30 dice, but against the agents, soldiers, starships, etc. they're unleashing an overwhelming force.)

Another good rule for stats is Active Points/2 for non-STR stats(i.e., in a 60 AP game, the max INT, DEX, CON, PRE, EGO would all be 30; in a 120 AP game, the max would be 60(though most would only have one stat approaching that level).

[dmjalund]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

One could allow a lower level PC to have powers you have forbidden higher powered characters - so even if he can't throw battleships around, he can have, perhaps, that stealth ability required when subtlety rather than power is key

[JmOz]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Is it bad that I want to now right up a LSH style archer...

[Cinniuint]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Experienced players are less power focused, usually. Or, at least, better players are. As a rule, the better role player will have more fun, and more sucess, regardless of point totals.

 

I think the important thing is that the players understand that the gamemasters job is to keep the game fun for everyone. If it isn't, changes have to be made, possibly to PC's. If players don't understand this, then they aren't ready for a high powered campaign.

 

I am in a campaign right now with a chacter with 32 personalities, on the condition that it is gone if it takes over the role playing sessions. The biggest problem so far, is that one personality came up with a psychic surgery power, and another PC has amnesia. We allowed just enough memory to be recovered to help the story along, without removing the characters amnesia limitation or significantly altering the PC's roleplaying potential. Sometimes, you just have to recognize that your PC can't do what it should be able to do, due to the needs of the story.

[Tasha]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Experienced players are less power focused, usually. Or, at least, better players are. As a rule, the better role player will have more fun, and more sucess, regardless of point totals.

 

I think the important thing is that the players understand that the gamemasters job is to keep the game fun for everyone. If it isn't, changes have to be made, possibly to PC's. If players don't understand this, then they aren't ready for a high powered campaign.

 

I am in a campaign right now with a chacter with 32 personalities, on the condition that it is gone if it takes over the role playing sessions. The biggest problem so far, is that one personality came up with a psychic surgery power, and another PC has amnesia. We allowed just enough memory to be recovered to help the story along, without removing the characters amnesia limitation or significantly altering the PC's roleplaying potential. Sometimes, you just have to recognize that your PC can't do what it should be able to do, due to the needs of the story.

 

/agreed

 

The thing is that the standard Champions campaign feels like a marvel comic. The powerlevels just seem to be built to give that feel. What Champions has always struggled with was that DC comics feel where the main characters are on the level of Superman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern. Those guys have this feel that puts them on a level above the average Marvel Superhero.

 

What I am getting at is that "Epic" champions is a legitimate genre that is separate from "normal" champions. This genre was kind of explored in 5e's Galactic Champions, but many of us found that supplement to be lacking when it came to mechanics and dealing with the genre. Since GC didn't sell that well and it doesn't seem likely that Steve will rewrite it for 6e (though that would be very cool if he did). We are talking about the issues around making and running a game that has characters based on 16DC or more. This isn't a thread where we are trying to force the whole high powered concept on the normal champions games.

[Escafarc]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

/agreed

 

The thing is that the standard Champions campaign feels like a marvel comic. The powerlevels just seem to be built to give that feel. What Champions has always struggled with was that DC comics feel where the main characters are on the level of Superman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern. Those guys have this feel that puts them on a level above the average Marvel Superhero.

 

What I am getting at is that "Epic" champions is a legitimate genre that is separate from "normal" champions. This genre was kind of explored in 5e's Galactic Champions, but many of us found that supplement to be lacking when it came to mechanics and dealing with the genre. Since GC didn't sell that well and it doesn't seem likely that Steve will rewrite it for 6e (though that would be very cool if he did). We are talking about the issues around making and running a game that has characters based on 16DC or more. This isn't a thread where we are trying to force the whole high powered concept on the normal champions games.

 

A lot of these topics which would not sell enough books on their own could be put together in let's say An Advance Game Master's Guide.

[Susano]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

/agreed

 

The thing is that the standard Champions campaign feels like a marvel comic. The powerlevels just seem to be built to give that feel. What Champions has always struggled with was that DC comics feel where the main characters are on the level of Superman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern. Those guys have this feel that puts them on a level above the average Marvel Superhero.

 

What I am getting at is that "Epic" champions is a legitimate genre that is separate from "normal" champions. This genre was kind of explored in 5e's Galactic Champions, but many of us found that supplement to be lacking when it came to mechanics and dealing with the genre. Since GC didn't sell that well and it doesn't seem likely that Steve will rewrite it for 6e (though that would be very cool if he did). We are talking about the issues around making and running a game that has characters based on 16DC or more. This isn't a thread where we are trying to force the whole high powered concept on the normal champions games.

 

Correction: Darren wrote GC.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Very interesting. There are lots of things that might be done and they seem to go against what most people think of as HERO's main selling point - no character classes. However, I think that the strict enforcement of schtick is pretty much the way to go - enough all-round power that the man in the street with a gun is not a threat at all. Or even the mob in the streets with guns. In one facet however, the power levels become epic and able to go toe to toe with epic level opponents.

 

I think that it would be good to think of how to do the genre - backwash and fallout of powers could be a big issue - guidance on how to tear up the scenery to enhance the storytelling - troupe play (Ars Arcana style) - some good guides to balancing stuff.

 

As pointed out - perhaps not a go-er as a stand alone product but as part of an Advanced Playing Guide - it would make very interesting reading.

 

 

Doc

[megaplayboy]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Well, one could play a generalist, so long as said generalist was 2nd or 3rd best in every area--a common shtick in comic book teams.

[Tasha]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Correction: Darren wrote GC.

 

I know that... but I am still hoping that STEVE will rewrite it. No offense to Darren, but Steve tends to put a lot of info in the books that he writes and I am sure that if he were to do the 6e version of Epic Champions that it would have that detail that I found missing in 5e Galactic Champions. Perhaps what I was hoping for was a Genre book and what we got was a campaign setting.

 

Tasha

[Tasha]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Very interesting. There are lots of things that might be done and they seem to go against what most people think of as HERO's main selling point - no character classes. However, I think that the strict enforcement of schtick is pretty much the way to go - enough all-round power that the man in the street with a gun is not a threat at all. Or even the mob in the streets with guns. In one facet however, the power levels become epic and able to go toe to toe with epic level opponents.

 

I think that it would be good to think of how to do the genre - backwash and fallout of powers could be a big issue - guidance on how to tear up the scenery to enhance the storytelling - troupe play (Ars Arcana style) - some good guides to balancing stuff.

 

As pointed out - perhaps not a go-er as a stand alone product but as part of an Advanced Playing Guide - it would make very interesting reading.

 

 

Doc

 

Perhaps a Champions II that has stuff like playing epic characters and other things that were missed in the base Champions book. IMHO this is really only appropriate as a gonzo Superheroic game, though I guess one could use it's guidelines for really over the top games of any genre.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Is it bad that I want to now right up a LSH style archer...

 

What you mean the guy that could target an opponent from orbit and fire an arrow through the side of a starship?

 

I know that... but I am still hoping that STEVE will rewrite it. No offense to Darren, but Steve tends to put a lot of info in the books that he writes and I am sure that if he were to do the 6e version of Epic Champions that it would have that detail that I found missing in 5e Galactic Champions. Perhaps what I was hoping for was a Genre book and what we got was a campaign setting.

 

Tasha

 

No offense meant to either of them, but they definitely have individual strengths. Either of them can turn in a great book, but I find that I like Steve for the crunch and detail, while I really like the way Darren does characters. I like Darren's default power levels and the character backgrounds he comes up with slightly more than Mr. Long's write-ups. They both write rings around me, but that's my opinion on the matter.

[casualplayer]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Has anyone had a long-running game that worked this way? I have thought about doing something like this a couple of times' date=' but I have my doubts about its long term viability. Most people would always want to play the most powerful person that they can, especially if the other players have access to a high level of power. If you mixed power levels within a PC group , them someone would feel left out. If everyone was always required to match one another in a specific story, then why have multiple characters at all?[/quote']

 

It works best if you have a nominal team leader assigning mission team rosters rather than letting people always go for their Big Guy and also you work with pairings that work for non-power reasons, like Mon-El and Shadow Lass or Ultra Boy and Phantom Girl or Star Boy and Dream Girl or Starfire and Dawnstar.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

It works best if you have a nominal team leader assigning mission team rosters rather than letting people always go for their Big Guy and also you work with pairings that work for non-power reasons' date=' like Mon-El and Shadow Lass or Ultra Boy and Phantom Girl or Star Boy and Dream Girl or Starfire and Dawnstar.[/quote']

 

Yep. A GMPC or an NPC Nick Fury type, saying "we need the following for this mission..." works just fine for that. And if you apply the five guidelines I suggested for character creation, it shouldn't even matter if everyone takes their heavy hitter, because the GM has a variety of options for cutting them down to size if they start getting cocky and complacent.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

What you mean the guy that could target an opponent from orbit and fire an arrow through the side of a starship?

 

 

 

.

 

No! Space Magic Indian!

Wait, that's vaguely demeaning. How about something more uplifting? That's it.* No bows and arrows, though. And no-one can say that a maiden/wilderness scout in buckskin is some kind of Indian stereotype.

They can? Poo. Pressin' the retcon button here.

 

*I have safesearch off on Google Image, a choice I regret sometimes. I was expecting to regret it when I typed "Dawnstar" into the search window, but the Internet classed it up for a change. At least on the first page.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

It works best if you have a nominal team leader assigning mission team rosters rather than letting people always go for their Big Guy and also you work with pairings that work for non-power reasons' date=' like Mon-El and Shadow Lass or Ultra Boy and Phantom Girl or Star Boy and Dream Girl or Starfire and Dawnstar.[/quote']

 

"Good morning, Mr. Harmon. Here is your briefing download for today...

"Good luck. This datastream will self-destruct in 5 seconds."

(Defender tears off his helmet before his eardrums explode.)

"@*&*% it! I've asked them not to do that!"

[JmOz]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

What you mean the guy that could target an opponent from orbit and fire an arrow through the side of a starship?

 

 

.

 

Something like that, I mean Karate Kid would have to be a heavy inspiration for the character

[megaplayboy]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

I actually was planning 5 sets of 5 recommendations vis a vis epic games, but got sidelined by my exams. Maybe next week I can post the other sets.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

good one [the defender/mission impossible gag

[casualplayer]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

Is it bad that I want to now right up a LSH style archer...

 

The character Celestial Archer in The Great Ten would probably qualify. He has shot out the sun (temporarily) and shot a message to his teammates 2000 miles away. When the arrow arrived his teammates commented that if Celestial Archer would have wanted to he could have hit either or both of them with the arrow.

[Susano]

Re: Epic level Champions

 

The character Celestial Archer in The Great Ten would probably qualify. He has shot out the sun (temporarily) and shot a message to his teammates 2000 miles away. When the arrow arrived his teammates commented that if Celestial Archer would have wanted to he could have hit either or both of them with the arrow.

 

Sounds like the archer from Chinese myth who shot down nine of the ten suns so the world would have a normal level of heat.