How best to replace "Find Weakness"

[BLHarrison]

I've going over some of the older Hero/Champions stuff I have (currently the 1993 V="Viper" soursebook) and I've come across several characters/agents with "Find Weakness".

 

As that ability has been removed from 6th Edition, how would you or what would you use to replace it?

[Steve Long]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

This seems to be a conversation topic more than a rules question, so I've moved it to the Discussion board.

 

Personally, I probably wouldn't replace it at all; if I did, I'd probably use the "multiple AP" rule from the APG.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Aromor Piercing that Requirs a Skill Roll works.

 

Really, anything that adds damage and relies on a skill roll works to achieve a similar effect.

[BLHarrison]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

This seems to be a conversation topic more than a rules question, so I've moved it to the Discussion board.

 

Personally, I probably wouldn't replace it at all; if I did, I'd probably use the "multiple AP" rule from the APG.

 

So even though the Power (and associated defense) was removed from 6th edition you would still use it, no problem I've got 4th edition still so no problem on a reference to lookup

 

And at this time I don't have the APG. Am I correct in assuming it is different from the 1 level of Hardenend cancels 1 level of AP rule?

[RPMiller]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

I think Steve is saying that he wouldn't put anything in for the Find Weakness. He would just drop it entirely.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Using Combat Skill Levels to add DCs to an attack would seem to a be an approach in the same spirit as the old Find Weakness power, though of course the mechanics are very different.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

1. using CSLs to increase damage

2. AP or multiple levels of AP, requires Skill roll(Analyze: Weakness)

3. NND (vs hardened defenses), may or may not add Does Body

4. +4d6 to attack, 0 END cost, RSR(analyze: weakness), extra time

5. Suppress PD, only vs attacks from this character(+0), RSR, IPE, extra time, level of effect proportionate to skill roll success

etc.

 

There must be 50 ways to find a weakness...

[Chimera 12]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Using Combat Skill Levels to add DCs to an attack would seem to a be an approach in the same spirit as the old Find Weakness power' date=' though of course the mechanics are very different.[/quote']

 

Hmm, point. Similarly, I imagine one could replace Find Weakness -- for agents, at least -- with an appropriate form of Deadly Blow or Weaponmaster. (While their descriptions only mention killing attacks, I would have no problem letting them apply to other forms of attack under suitable circumstances. They're built using Combat Skill Levels not actually limited to KAs in any fashion according to their writeup on 6E1 447 anyway.)

[Fearghus]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Find Weakness always was kind of a naked AP advantage with a skill roll anyway so that is how I would do it.

[Tasha]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Find Weakness always was kind of a naked AP advantage with a skill roll anyway so that is how I would do it.

 

Kind of. the problem with that approach is that you cannot simulate the further halving of defenses as you made more skill rolls in later phases. I kind of miss Find Weakness. Nothing exists that really can replace it.

[Vulcan]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

The simple way to replace it is, well, to just pull it (and Lack of Weakness) over whole-cloth from 5E. I haven't seen anything in the 6E rules that would be overtly negatively affected by doing so.

[Chimera 12]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Kind of. the problem with that approach is that you cannot simulate the further halving of defenses as you made more skill rolls in later phases. I kind of miss Find Weakness. Nothing exists that really can replace it.

 

Well, there is the optional APG rule (presumably) referred to by Steve which lets multiple levels of Armor Piercing halve defenses that many times, at an increasing Advantage cost per level of course.

 

But yeah, Find Weakness kind of always was its own special snowflake. As of this writing, I'm honestly not sure how to best model it -- or at least its precise mechanics, as something that simply has "I know how to hit you where it hurts" as a special effect isn't hard at all -- using only stock 6E parts.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

From an earlier 5er thread:

 

It's probably easier to start at the other extreme with the following:

 

Naked Advantage: NND, Does Body

Limitations on the Naked Advantage: Requires Skill Roll, Gradual Effect.

[dmjalund]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

How about a rule that allows you to use combat skill levels to decrease to DEF against which the attack applies (say -1 PD per 2 levels or -1 rPD per 3)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

How about a rule that allows you to use combat skill levels to decrease to DEF against which the attack applies (say -1 PD per 2 levels or -1 rPD per 3)

 

That would allow a really really good sniper with a blowgun to do Body to Grond.

Is that a good thing?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

How about a rule that allows you to use combat skill levels to decrease to DEF against which the attack applies (say -1 PD per 2 levels or -1 rPD per 3)

 

That would allow a really really good sniper with a blowgun to do Body to Grond.

Is that a good thing?

 

Well, it is the sort of thing that might happen with (extreme levels of) Find Weakness...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Well' date=' it [i']is[/i] the sort of thing that might happen with (extreme levels of) Find Weakness...

 

Except for one major difference. That level of effect with Find Weakness would require multiple successful rolls which would take several Phases.

The suggested OCV/CSL based approach doesn't inherently require the extra time.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Piercing points are another alternative to Armor Piercing. (APG p113.) I like the fact that Piercing points have a flat cost, rather than a variable cost (+1/4 of base power).

 

I'd figure out how many Piercing points you can get from one skill roll. Then put the Cumulative advantage on those Piercing points, with a max of x2, x4 or maybe (eek!) x8. Then impose a -2 on each skill roll after the first, until the Piercing points have reached the maximum purchased with the Cumulative advantage.

 

Note that per rules as written, Piercing points must be purchased for a single attack. To work with a group of attacks, or with all attacks, this power will have to be further customized.

 

Find Weakness: Resistant Piercing: 4 points, Cumulative: x4 (16 Piercing points) (+3/4); Requires A Roll (Skill roll: Find Weakness (Dex-based); Must be made each Phase/use; -1) Active/Real pts: 20/10

 

Obviously this will work differently from the original version of find weakness; it doesn't suffer from the 'diminishing returns' of halving defenses with each use. It removes a flat 4pts of defense per successful skill roll, up to a maximum of -16 PD or ED. It also requires purchase of a separate Dex-based skill: Find weakness, at a cost of 3pts.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

That would allow a really really good sniper with a blowgun to do Body to Grond.

Is that a good thing?

 

If you're trying to replace Find Weakness, then it is, sinc FW could achieve the same mechanical effect. Maybe Steve thinks it's a bad thing so he got rid of FW? Others wanted the tool, so he put an option in APG.

 

Piercing points are another alternative to Armor Piercing. (APG p113.) I like the fact that Piercing points have a flat cost' date=' rather than a variable cost (+1/4 of base power).[/quote']

 

They also have a fixed effect. The problemn with FW was its flat cost effectively adding an advantage to any power, without scaling in cost for the level of that power.

 

You could always limit your Piercing to have diminishing returns. I like that approach if you want a similar mechanic.

[Tasha]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

How about a rule that allows you to use combat skill levels to decrease to DEF against which the attack applies (say -1 PD per 2 levels or -1 rPD per 3)

 

one can already use levels to increase the DC of an attack. I guess you could have cheese Skill levels that just increase DC. Yeah have enough of these to actually have a big enough attack that could do body to Grond.

[Tasha]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

If you're trying to replace Find Weakness, then it is, sinc FW could achieve the same mechanical effect. Maybe Steve thinks it's a bad thing so he got rid of FW? Others wanted the tool, so he put an option in APG.

 

 

 

They also have a fixed effect. The problemn with FW was its flat cost effectively adding an advantage to any power, without scaling in cost for the level of that power.

 

You could always limit your Piercing to have diminishing returns. I like that approach if you want a similar mechanic.

 

One could use limits to have a cascading amount of piercing that require harder and harder Activation rolls each phase.

 

ie 3 piercing points 15- Activation roll, Extra time Half phase

+3 Piercing points 14- Activation Roll, Extra time half phase, Linked to base 3 points

+3 Piercing points 13- Activation Roll, Extra time half phase, Linked to base 3 points

etc.

 

nice thing about this approach is that the GM doesn't have to worry about someone having an 11- chance to half their Villain's Defenses. With Piercing it's more linear in progression. Which can be good and bad.

[Chimera 12]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

On a bit of a tangent, depending on how old the original books are one possible option to update those characters might also be to forget about Find Weakness altogether and instead spend those points on other skills or talents that just plain didn't exist back then but do in 6E. For example, do those agent writeups have the Teamwork skill already? If not, they probably should...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

one can already use levels to increase the DC of an attack. I guess you could have cheese Skill levels that just increase DC. Yeah have enough of these to actually have a big enough attack that could do body to Grond.

 

Levels are a legitimate mechanic for increasing damage, OCV or DCV. Why is it "cheese" to reduce the versatility and cost of an ability? Is it cheese to buy DCV only or OCV only levels? It's not needed in 6e since one can now buy OCV and DCV directly (and, if desired, limit them to "only with certain attacks"), but the ability to buy DC on anything but an attack by attack basis does not yet exist.

 

Thinking on it, those levels could be limited to be unable to increase the damage through to the target above the base damage of the attack (or the base damage less a fraction of the target's defenses) to achieve the same maximum results as FW. This would be complex to track, though. Mind you, tracking which targets you have Found Weakness on, and to what level, requires some effort too.

 

If we were going to allow levels to reduce defenses, it should be consistent with the manner in which levels enhance damage. 2 levels add 1 DC, which would typically be 1d6, or 3.5 STUN and 1 BOD. Given that, lowering defenses by 2 for 2 levels (enhancing STUN and BOD damage by 2 each) would seem reasonable. That's -1 to the relevant defense for every level so allocated.

 

This could be problematic for attacks where only BOD matters (ie 1 level to reduce Flash Defense by 1 is virtually the same as +1d6 Flash). But maybe that indicates a pricing problem with combat skill levels, rather than a flaw in the logic that adding DC's and reducing defenses are, in principal, similar. Reducing defenses is actually more limited, since adding 2d6 to an attack against an opponent with 2 defenses will add more STUN than reducing his defenses by 4, with no enhancement to BOD done. As well, reducing defenses will not increase Knockback.

[Escafarc]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

Levels are a legitimate mechanic for increasing damage, OCV or DCV. Why is it "cheese" to reduce the versatility and cost of an ability? Is it cheese to buy DCV only or OCV only levels? It's not needed in 6e since one can now buy OCV and DCV directly (and, if desired, limit them to "only with certain attacks"), but the ability to buy DC on anything but an attack by attack basis does not yet exist.

 

Thinking on it, those levels could be limited to be unable to increase the damage through to the target above the base damage of the attack (or the base damage less a fraction of the target's defenses) to achieve the same maximum results as FW. This would be complex to track, though. Mind you, tracking which targets you have Found Weakness on, and to what level, requires some effort too.

 

If we were going to allow levels to reduce defenses, it should be consistent with the manner in which levels enhance damage. 2 levels add 1 DC, which would typically be 1d6, or 3.5 STUN and 1 BOD. Given that, lowering defenses by 2 for 2 levels (enhancing STUN and BOD damage by 2 each) would seem reasonable. That's -1 to the relevant defense for every level so allocated.

 

This could be problematic for attacks where only BOD matters (ie 1 level to reduce Flash Defense by 1 is virtually the same as +1d6 Flash). But maybe that indicates a pricing problem with combat skill levels, rather than a flaw in the logic that adding DC's and reducing defenses are, in principal, similar. Reducing defenses is actually more limited, since adding 2d6 to an attack against an opponent with 2 defenses will add more STUN than reducing his defenses by 4, with no enhancement to BOD done. As well, reducing defenses will not increase Knockback.

 

I would make reducing Defenses with Skill levels 2x the cost of increasing Damage in the same way that Adjustment Powers do.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: How best to replace "Find Weakness"

 

one can already use levels to increase the DC of an attack. I guess you could have cheese Skill levels that just increase DC. Yeah have enough of these to actually have a big enough attack that could do body to Grond.

 

This is precisely how the Deadly Blow and Weapon Master Talents are constructed. And yes, you can buy as many levels as you want until you overload on cheezeeness.

 

 

The Deadly Blow / Weapon Master scale of Cheezeeness:

 

1 level: sliced velveeta

2 levels: block of sharp cheddar

3 levels: giant wheel of limburger

4 levels: Case of cheeze-whiz

5 levels: you just put Chester Cheetah out of a job, skippy!