Not D&D

[Vondy]

Re: Not D&D

 

Personally, fantasy kitchen sink religion doesn't do much for me. It doesn't look anything like real religion, pagan or otherwise. Religions aren't about magical supply and demand, and mystic medical corps. They are about belief, culture, ethics, faith, worldview and values. Fantasy religions would produce radically different social paradigms and power structures than real world religions did, which means most fantasy world's make little sense in that they do tend to reflect real world cultures and paradigms fairly strongly. These thoughts aside, as a religious man, I don't care for the pan-genre default paganism in FRPG cultures. Nor do I agree with the argument that paganism and monotheism are mutually exclusive concepts that can't exist side by side in a game world. Within a single culture this may make more sense, though a bright GM can create factors allowing for both. Our world today has a panapoly of religious flavors.

 

A few alternatives:

 

Don't take a position on the validity of religions and existence of various gods. Clerical magic is either non-existent, or unique forms of sorcery. Have clerical magic AND sorcery be based on pacts/relationships with various extraplanar or spiritual beings with competing-contradictory philosophies on the divinity of such beings. Have no clerical magic of any kind and competing interpretations on the validity of various religions be the norm.

 

An Example:

 

Create a religion focused on a cross between clan/house based ancestor veneration (which is not worship) that serves as a transmission of cultural norms and values (as our fathers have done, so shall we do) via the transmission of the genius of the line to clan heads that exists along side more public cults dedicated to assorted mystics, prophets, and saints. Some of these cults/churches/sects may function like mystery cults, while others function like societies of values. For instance, a saint modeled on joan of arc might explain the existence of chivalrous virtue and courtly love in a setting. A cult of kings may convey legitimacy on a monarch as well as establish their moral right to rule via the belief in the transmission of the so-called genius of previous kings. This creates a robust religious environment that shapes the world without a single spell being cast. Some cults might be widespread throughout a geographic region, while others might be intensely local. Individual kingdoms might ban some cults. Its possible they even have a convocation of elders/peers/whatnot who form a convocation to maintain a concordat of cults and to determine if they are detrimental to the nations good order and the traditions of their ancestors or not.

[Curufea]

Re: Not D&D

 

I've got to rep that. So much of fantasy these days almost entirely consists of what the tropes are - not what the sources are.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Not D&D

 

Vondy, you continue to astound me.

 

Miracles and miracle-like effects are very far from the point of a working religion. A religion is a system that guides one's entire life -- even if it doesn't call for a deity of any kind who directly intervenes in human affairs (or intervenes through chosen intermediaries). You can have a complete system of social and moral guidance without any belief in any deity at all.

 

Whether religious officers can work magic depends only on how their religious system feels about magic. If they take the Western approach that altering the laws of nature would be somehow "cheating" then their priests, monks, nuns and lay brethren won't use magic. Magic may well work, and indivudals might use it in what they believe to be the interests of their religion, but the religious organzations might disapprove of or even condemn their use.

 

For a more positive example of such a thing, read Randall Garret's novel Too Many Magicians or any of the other Lord Darcy stories from the late sixties and early seventies. The Catholic Church trains its priests and bishops in the "laws of magic", but a rabbi or a Muslim cleric can be an equally good spell-caster following the same laws. Secular mages also use the same laws to train in different forms of magic (such as the "forensic magic" used by Master Sean). And the novel mentions the practices of the Aztec and Maya, albeit from a heavy veil of disgust at its "perverted" nature (largely because of the penchant for human sacrifice -- one of Garret's catchphrases throughout the series is "Black Magic is a matter of symbolism and intent" that leads to user on an inexorable path to destruction -- which makes the use of magic as a weapon problematic at best). The Laws of Magic are laws of nature like any other science, that just happen to have been researched and codified by an Anglo-French monk. You can also get from those books a sense of what an admittedly idealized feudal state would be like given the "technology" of magic, where the driving force of governance is mutual obligation and duty.

[Markdoc]

Re: Not D&D

 

And the novel mentions the practices of the Aztec and Maya' date=' albeit from a heavy veil of disgust at its "perverted" nature (largely because of the penchant for human sacrifice -- one of Garret's catchphrases throughout the series is "Black Magic is a matter of symbolism and intent" that leads to user on an inexorable path to destruction -- which makes the use of magic as a weapon problematic at best).[/quote']

 

This is the key to the game I mentioned above: in this game there is no "evil" magic, per se. However, use of the more powerful form of cult magic incurs a psychic debt, which slowly warps the user. If you keep your use of magic at a low level, using it sparingly or using only small magics, this effect is unnoticeable. However, of course, there is always the temptation to use more power - and the game system is set up to encourage this.

 

Game mechanic: Heretical magic (the "bad guy magic") uses a multipower: it has a side effect attached to the required skill roll. This does 2 things. 1) The required limitations make the whole MP cheaper, tempting people to buy a larger pool 2) a failed roll will activate a transform on the character affecting mind or body, either mentally or physically deforming them. Of course the larger the spell you try to cast the greater your chance of failure . If you restrict your use of magic, you might get away with this for years. However, the transformation itself is permanent, unless you can find a scapegoat who will voluntarily accept it The usual way of doing this is to either find some poor shumck (not easy with the more obvious physical deformities) or by making a deal with a non-human entity. These "entities" (this is where the demons come in) are natural shapeshifters of enormous power who live "elsewhere" and who can potentially ameliorate the effects of the transform. Of course, it's not coincidental that they appear usually as bizarre and extremely quirky amalgams of the human form .... Typically, they require odd services for this deal - which gives mages of this style a very bad reputation: even if they are not crazy from mental transforms, you never know what they're going to do.

 

There are of course, variations on this theme. The "good guys" I mentioned are part of an ancestor cult. They worship the founders of their city - a long ago group of adventurers - who found a way around the limitations of this type of magic - by trapping and binding some of these extradimensional beings within a sort of magical crucible and compelling them to accept the "deals" of cult worshippers. That means cult members, within the precincts of the city (which today is a vast area of ruins, mostly thinly populated, with a few fortified outpposts) can cast magic without any personal side effects. There's much more to the cult than magic, of course - cult members see themselves as the people of the city (which means they are urbane, sophisticated and not all like the barbarians outside the walls), and each of the founders as an exemplar. Indeed, the old founders left magical masks which contains some of their essence. The city council, when wearing the masks acquire some of the founders' power - but also memories and psychological limitations. This means the cult acts as provider of knowledge both mundane and magical as well as a source of inspiration for "correct" behaviour. Cult members are devoted to the idea of their city (to borrow from the greek concepts, they see it as both polis and genius loci). In other words, they believe that they formed the city and the city formed them and they wish to restore it to its former glory. This is more than rhetorical: they believe that the city is, in some way semi-sentient ... and in a way - see below - they're right.

 

The magic's side effects are still in force, however - they are merely being transferred to these other beings and centuries of transformation by thousands of users has long since mutated them out of any semblance of anything humanoid or even recognizably sentient. Indeed, it has been adding power to them. The result has been that they spin off extra bodies - dreams, nightmares, vessels for the power that is flowing in to them ... in a word, monsters. This is the source of the "otherworldly beings" that power the magic of the "evil cults" The players have already speculated on the bizarre ecology of this place, where there are far more monsters than can be explained. So far they have just written them off as escapees from old wizards' lab.s, but they are starting to speculate ... Interestingly, as they dig back into the cults' histories, they are also starting to realise that the backlash must still be present and wondering where it is going.

 

Ultimately, they are going to find out about the vast pool of quasi-sentient goo under the city and face a choice: the same things that powers the magic of the city cults - which most of hem have joined - also spawn the monsters and have spawned the "evil" cults which drew them into this quest in the first place. Will they give up their power to end the plague of monsters? If so, what about the "evil" cults? What about the city? I don't have a scripted answer, so I'll be interested to see how this plays out

 

And all of this backstory spun off a simple mechanism for making a new magic system - and I didn't even get to the Cult of the Destroyer and the Cult of Man, both of which share the city ruins and a long history with the Cult of the City

 

cheers, Mark

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Not D&D

 

Again, while fascinating, a lot of these replies have said "Here, use this (religious idea) instead." When any of those concepts will go against what the poster is espousing as his personal beliefs and the limits his conscience will allow him to go to.

[bobooton]

Re: Not D&D

 

Again' date=' while fascinating, a lot of these replies have said "Here, use this (religious idea) instead." When any of those concepts will go against what the poster is espousing as his personal beliefs and the limits his conscience will allow him to go to.[/quote']

 

This.

 

I have run into players that are troubled by religious elements in games. If they're in my game or I'm in their game, I'll work to accomodate them. For some, sexual content or overly violent content might have very clearly delineated lines that shouldn't be crossed. Some might have limits on all of that, plus an unnatural fear of fire or drowning or whatever. Common courtesy dictates that you don't purposefully put people into an uncomfortable position, especially in an entertainment context, unless they've consented. If you want to explore some other themes or cross those lines, have a side game or excuse the player for a moment.

[quozaxx]

Re: Not D&D

 

Thanks again for everyone's advice. This is the background story I have started:

 

In a dimension filled with mutants with magic-like powers, ogres, trolls, unicorns, dragons, and other fantastic beasts; there is the kingdom of Dannabar. Dannabar was one of the largest kingdoms around.

 

One day the queen of Dannabar was going to give birth to twins. But the queen didn’t want one child to rule over the other. So on that fateful day, the queen went to a private room, locked the door, and managed to have twin boys without a nurse maid present.

 

The boys may have been twins but they couldn’t have been any more different in personality. The only physical difference in their appearance was their hair color. One was blond and the other had black hair. The blond hair boy was Alfred. The black haired boy was Zondar. Alfred was kind, gentle, and freindly. Zondar was envious, mean-spirited, and self-centered.

 

As they boys grew up; the queen continuously refused to say who was born first and was rightful heir to the throne. The king was patient. When the boys grew into adulthood, most of the kingdom became very sick; including the king. So on his deathbed, the king made a decision. The kingdom was separated into two equal parts with the river down the middle. The king decided one son would rule the north half and one son would rule the southern half. This was acceptable to both sons. The present king died.

 

The one who would inhabit the north half would be king immediately. The one who would inhabit the south half would have to wait until the queen died or passed her crown to other son. Alfred asked Zondar which side he would want. He would let him choose first, because he knew if he chose first Zondar would become jealous of whatever decision he had made.

 

Zondar was no fool. Even though he wanted to be king immediately, if he went north. He’d have to travel 5 days through treacherous forest before finding a suitable spot for the northern castle. He’d also have to build it from the ground up, since the present day castle was on the south side of the river.

 

So, he decided to wait for his decision until he could send surveyors to each side of the river. That took a full year. But the north end has the most fertile soil for farming, it had a large hill on which to erect a castle, it was a larger overall area, it had 3 lakes filled with fish, and the forest was filled with not only unusual beasts, but also good hunting. So, Zondar took the north end and about half of the residents followed him as their king.

 

Alfred didn’t hear from his brother for about 5 years. He married during that time and conceived a son. Alfred sent a soldier to see if his brother needed help. He never returned, nor did the next 5 soldiers after that. But one soldier did return. He told stories of greed, lust, corruption, and self-centered people; and a message. Zondar wanted to establish trade relations with his brother. So a trade route from north kingdom to south kingdom was built. It took over a year to build.

 

Now, Alfred’s son is 8. He found out that his brother Zondar could not have any children, with any of his many wives.

 

All the characters live in the south kingdom. The next part of the story continues there.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Not D&D

 

Very interesting backstory. If Zondar is as cruel as you are painting him to be, that trade route is going to come back to bite Alfred very, very quickly. Greedy, lusty and corrupt people will tend to live in an appealing sort of luxury that will tempt many of Alfred's people with whom they come into contact. Zondar may not even need an invading army to destabilize Alfred's kingdom (in fact, it would get in the way).

 

On the other hand, people who have come out on the losing end of Zondar's regime may seek refuge in Alfred's lands -- which could infuriate Zondar, especially if an important person chooses to defect.

 

What are the good points of living in the south as opposed to the north? Many people would be willing to put up with a tyrannical regime if they were comfortable enough, and many will be genuinely loyal to Zondar and hope his house would prosper.

[quozaxx]

Re: Not D&D

 

Very interesting backstory. If Zondar is as cruel as you are painting him to be, that trade route is going to come back to bite Alfred very, very quickly. Greedy, lusty and corrupt people will tend to live in an appealing sort of luxury that will tempt many of Alfred's people with whom they come into contact. Zondar may not even need an invading army to destabilize Alfred's kingdom (in fact, it would get in the way).

 

On the other hand, people who have come out on the losing end of Zondar's regime may seek refuge in Alfred's lands -- which could infuriate Zondar, especially if an important person chooses to defect.

 

What are the good points of living in the south as opposed to the north? Many people would be willing to put up with a tyrannical regime if they were comfortable enough, and many will be genuinely loyal to Zondar and hope his house would prosper.

 

That is my intentions. This way potential players will "know" something is going to happen; even if not immediately. Alfred is not a fool either (which is why he asked Zondar to pick which side he wanted first). I wouldn't doubt if he has spies in Zondar's castle as Zondar probably has spies in his. Alfred has reasons not to trust Zondar and Zondar is not the trusting type.

 

I already have ideas for the first game, but sometime I get players from this sight and wouldn't want to ruin the surprise.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Not D&D

 

I honestly can't imagine a Fantasy game without religion. Without magic, certainly, but religion? I honestly believe you can't have a society of humans without them developing a religion of some kind. Humanity just has an inborn need to believe in something larger than both themselves and the world around them.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Not D&D

 

I honestly can't imagine a Fantasy game without religion. Without magic' date=' certainly, but religion? I honestly believe you can't have a society of humans without them developing a religion of some kind. Humanity just has an inborn need to believe in something larger than both themselves and the world around them.[/quote']

 

Plenty of Sci Fi has skirted the issue of religion. I don't see why Fantasy could not be the same. I guess everyone's experience and expectations are different in that regard.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Not D&D

 

I honestly can't imagine a Fantasy game without religion. Without magic' date=' certainly, but religion? I honestly believe you can't have a society of humans without them developing a religion of some kind. Humanity just has an inborn need to believe in something larger than both themselves and the world around them.[/quote']

 

True, but nobody said you have to have deities to have a religion.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Not D&D

 

True' date=' but nobody said you have to have deities to have a religion.[/quote']

Also very true.

[Curufea]

Re: Not D&D

 

Religion could exist in the setting - but be completely background to the game. There are plenty of fantasy books that make no mention at all of religion. Not because the setting doesn't have religion, but because it is completely unimportant to any of the characters or the plot.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Not D&D

 

I read that the OP wanted campaign setup advice...

(plonking sound)

[Ragnarok]

Re: Not D&D

 

I read that the OP wanted campaign setup advice...

(plonking sound)

 

And so we've been giving it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Not D&D

 

I read that the OP wanted campaign setup advice...

(plonking sound)

Hence the first 4 pages of the thread loaded with responses. You have anything to add?

[AlHazred]

Re: Not D&D

 

Plenty of interesting fantasy stories start with a single outrageous conceit, and then depend on the author developing a story that supports and expands that conceit. One of my favorites, Jack Vance, is quite capable of spinning incredible yarns from one humble feature of a fantasy society (everyone wears a mask at all times, for example). With a sufficient amount of creativity, you can spin any set of limiters into a golden scenario. If the OP wants a non-religious fantasy setting (for whatever reason), then I see no reason it can't still be a setting of the highest quality.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Not D&D

 

Plenty of interesting fantasy stories start with a single outrageous conceit' date=' and then depend on the author developing a story that supports and expands that conceit. One of my favorites, Jack Vance, is quite capable of spinning incredible yarns from one humble feature of a fantasy society (everyone wears a mask at all times, for example). With a sufficient amount of creativity, you can spin any set of limiters into a golden scenario. If the OP wants a non-religious fantasy setting (for whatever reason), then I see no reason it can't still be a setting of the highest quality.[/quote']

 

'What-if" is at the core of both fantasy and sci-fi. What if we could go faster than light? What if sorcery was a science? What if mad science and mad scientists were a fact of life?

 

Girl Genius is a great example of a fantasy series with neither magic (at least of the non-Clarkeian variety) or generally practiced religion. Not especially relevant to D&D, of course, but an example of fantasy that is based squarely on a "what-if" question.

 

In the original poster's campaign that he is creating, there are some definite "what-if" elements going on. His politics sound very interesting, for example.

[AlHazred]

Re: Not D&D

 

I'm going to go with a non-graphic example. Jack Vance's The Moon Moth is a great short story in which the protagonist is an agent of an interstellar power visiting a people who wear masks at all times, slipping it forward a little to eat. They don't really have a "religion" per se -- masks are based on legendary and mythical figures (of Vance's invention) each of which has a story behind it. The natives wear masks relative to their personal "power" or "force," such that potent people who can get their way wear masks of potent heroes (or anti-heroes, or villains -- Vance's natives don't seem particularly "nice"). If one performs deeds consistent with the mask one wears, one gains status in society and material goods; those who dishonor their mask, or "aim low" consequently wear masks of pedestrian nature and stay at a low level in society.

 

Well worth checking out, and a good example of a dynamic story with no religious (or even non-human) content at all.

[quozaxx]

Re: Not D&D

 

I do not intend for religion to make a big impact in this world.

 

Please note: I said "deities" not God (capital G, in my opinion, the One and Only God). As in no false gods, Roman gods like Zeus or Odin, or Thor, or any other "gods" (smaller case g). If there are no deities, they cannot be worshiped. Thus avoiding the issue.

 

Why, in your opinion, does religion need to be a large part of Fantasy Role Playing? I do value everyone's thoughts on this. Even those violently opposed to my opinion.

[Spence]

Re: Not D&D

 

 

Why, in your opinion, does religion need to be a large part of Fantasy Role Playing? I do value everyone's thoughts on this. Even those violently opposed to my opinion.

 

I think in general, it is not that they think religion has to be part of Fantasy RPG's. It is just that the vast majority of FRPG's tend to use a background based on real world low tech such as Medieval Europe or a corresponding period in Asia. And generally in the real world religion played a very prominent role in all of real world historical periods, with those times having it more than others.

 

You can't hardly find fiction or tale from those periods without a temple, church, shrine, priest or monk. Therefore it seems odd not to have it.

 

It would be like a FRPG with no magic. Or one with no warrior/fighters. It's been done before, but it is very unusual and takes a bit to wrap your mind around it.

[Markdoc]

Re: Not D&D

 

Why' date=' in your opinion, does religion need to be a large part of Fantasy Role Playing? I do value everyone's thoughts on this. Even those violently opposed to my opinion.[/quote']

 

It doesn't, any more than it needs to be a part of real life. For some people - and in some contexts - it's very, very important. In real life, many people I know go day to day, month to month, even year to year, without attending a religious service, thinking about God or really having anything to do with religion. It's kind of there - undiscussed - in the background, but it's barely relevant to them, and then only on a political level.

 

For a game, if the Gods are not constantly - and obviously - interfering in people's lives, it could well be the same.

 

To make an analogy, if you were running a pulp adventure game, how much time would you spend on setting up the religious aspects? Characters might be Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or Jain, and those religions are important in the real world, but so what? The action is on two fisted, fightin' adventure and characters' motivations are only rarely religious. It's part of the background and probably a part which is rarely discussed.

 

It's entirely possible to run a game, where religion simply isn't an issue. Now personally, that's not to my taste - designing reasonable fantasy religions is part of the fun of designing reasonable fantasy cultures, to me. But that is personal taste. A GM could very easily choose to ignore that aspect.

 

Note: that doesn't mean a world with no religion: simply a game where that aspect is glossed over. However, it's equally possible to have a game world with no religion at all (and I have designed and included in my current game several atheist cultures ) In a world where magic does exist, people's perception of religion might be very, very different. After all, what's the difference between a priest who claims to do miracle - and a sorceror who also claims to do miracles?

 

Again, it's simply a question of the GM's intent and desires.

 

cheers, Mark

[Alibear]

Re: Not D&D

 

For many societies religion and gods were a way to explain the universe. If we have magic to explain the unexplainable do we need gods?

[Markdoc]

Re: Not D&D

 

For many societies religion and gods were a way to explain the universe. If we have magic to explain the unexplainable do we need gods?

 

Exactly.

 

Also, (for example) if you can go the edge of the world, peer down and see the turtle, that renders creation myths and debates on "our place in the universe" moot. You know where you are ... on top of a giant turtle!

 

cheers, Mark