Not D&D

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Not D&D

 

Again' date=' only [b']your own conscience[/b] can tell you what you should or should not participate in.

I just wanted to emphasize this. Many people have expressed not understanding why it would be an issue because it is just pretend, but if you are uncomfortable with it than that is the issue. Even the New Testament says that if you think something is wrong, and you do it anyway, you are in the wrong, because you did it even though you thought it was sinful. Don’t do anything that makes you uncomfortable and don’t compromise on the issue. It’s your setting, your world, do what you want with it.

 

Sadly, most sites Christians write about RPGs end up looking like this one. I got four lines in and said, "No, thanks!"

I got to where it lists Benny Hinn being listed as a “hero of the Faith” and threw up in my mouth a little.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Not D&D

 

The wolves who attacked the children for making fun of a bald man - Enoch' date=' IIRC.[/quote']

[nitpick]Actually it was Elisha (not to be confused with Elijah, who preceded him) and they were bears that killed the "children" (a poor translation with some English versions reading "young men").[/nitpick]

Sorry, my compulsive correcting habit is now calmed.

[quozaxx]

Re: Not D&D

 

I have been playing Champions for years. I currently play on Hero Central on a daily basis. I have, on other occasions, avoided topics that have bothered my conscience before. Such as the realm of the dead / afterlife.

 

I don't have a problem with magic just being a special background effect. Like cold powers, fire powers, or mental powers. I don't go into detail where the special effect of magic comes from in those campaigns any more than I do the other powers I have mentioned.

 

But I do wonder if that would be a "problem" if magic is an essential theme in the story lines.

[Maccabe]

Re: Not D&D

 

You are not alone, friend QUOAXX, I once GM'd a game set in Imperial Rome I told my players that " I had no objection to anyone playing a 'religious character' but to use the word 'diety' and NOT G-d because using G-d would be taking G-d's name in vain." I had my religious quirks No one objected.

In a post long ago I asked our fellow gamers how they would handle a setting like Chronicles of Narnia, since I feared that some people would object to it on religious grounds.

I wish you luck.

[azato]

Re: Not D&D

 

Dude, since you seem so hesitant don't bother with it. You have been given plenty of options to not even have deities, or even magic, in your campaign. I get the feeling that you feel that it is a requriement of some sort (perhaps unspoken) that you have magic and deities.....but you don't. Players don't really care about those details, they just want to have fun playing. You are wasting a whole lot of emotional energy on this. Do or don't do, but don't put yourself in some weird mental box you cannot escape.

[Escafarc]

Re: Not D&D

 

One more idea is replace "magic" with "Psionics".

[Mister E]

Re: Not D&D

 

Sadly, most sites Christians write about RPGs end up looking like this one. I got four lines in and said, "No, thanks!"

 

Was it this line?:

 

"Seance’s are frequently held in production lines where these games are made to increase their evil hold and addiction levels."

 

“Faith and Relevance” (F&R) is only $199!

[quozaxx]

Re: Not D&D

 

Dude' date=' since you seem so hesitant don't bother with it. You have been given plenty of options to not even have deities, or even magic, in your campaign. I get the feeling that you feel that it is a requriement of some sort (perhaps unspoken) that you have magic and deities.....but you don't. Players don't really care about those details, they just want to have fun playing. You are wasting a whole lot of emotional energy on this. Do or don't do, but don't put yourself in some weird mental box you cannot escape.[/quote']

 

Ah, but my personality makes me ask such questions; besides I am getting plenty of great responses.

 

When I hear the word "fantasy", I think of magic. When I think of magic, I have to wonder how far is too far when applying it.

 

I don't have as much troubles with Champions. Thus laying the groundwork for such questions helps me sort out my thoughts, feeling, and conscience. I appreciate everything everyone has said. Because I would also ask if playing a "christian" game would interrupt fun play and other people's opion on the subject.

 

There are many religions. And even many denominations of christians, each with their own view of how to approach God. Some say directly, some say through Jesus, and some say through a saint, some say only through the Virgin Mary.... and so on.

 

I would fear that if I focus a game on my personal beliefs; not only would I not get any players to play, but also end up in conflict with the players I do get. I don't mind the idea of battling orcs, ogres, and dragons. I just don't like the idea of making a hack and slash and greed the primary goal of the game.

 

See, if it wasn't for these threads I wouldn't have even questioned magic. I am glad the subject came up. I believe discussing subjects like this one can only help. Maybe someone else was considering these questions but were afraid to ask.

[azato]

Re: Not D&D

 

That is cool. I just know of people who don't make a clear decisions because they keep going in circles.

 

"I would fear that if I focus a game on my personal beliefs; not only would I not get any players to play, but also end up in conflict with the players I do get. I don't mind the idea of battling orcs, ogres, and dragons. I just don't like the idea of making a hack and slash and greed the primary goal of the game. "

 

I think the game can focus on your personal beliefs, but it must be done in an engaging way and not in a preachy way. Obviously people don't want to hear a sermon, or to be taken through a bible story, but there are plenty of scenarios, themes and situations that can be presented. What about taking a group of persecuted people to another land? What about allowing a character to sacrifice his life for a greater good? What about sitting up situations where the players can act in a way that is larger than life to benefit the community and, maybe, the world. What would Lewis do? How about Tolkien? What about G.K. Chesterton?

 

To me, one of the most moving "moral" movies in the recent past was Spider Man 2. He had the powers. Using the powers made his life miserable. His powers helped other people. He realized he had a choice...he could be Spider Man or he could walk away. He chose to take the path of suffering. ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE. Obviously not a theme that only comes from Christianity, but is is a theme of the Christian faith. The

 

Now for my soap box....

Yeah, as I mentioned I am running a sword and sorcery campaign. I am wanting to deemphasize humanoids, undead and general craziness. I have been looking through many, many published modules from various companies and it is almost impossible to find any adventures that do not make the main antagonist or his minions a undead or humanoids. I don't feel that these types are morally wrong to place in a game...but I feel that they are work against any sort of deep role playing since the logical answer to any humanoid or undead it to kill it . In fact, one does it without any remorse. See an orc standing by a tree? Kill it. The alignment system also works along the same path. Is something "EviL" (lawful, neutral, or better yet Chaotic) kill it without remorse since it is evil.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Not D&D

 

...the logical answer to any humanoid or undead it to kill it . In fact' date=' one does it without any remorse. See an orc standing by a tree? Kill it. The alignment system also works along the same path. Is something "EviL" (lawful, neutral, or better yet Chaotic) kill it without remorse since it is evil.[/quote']

 

Are these things truly logical things, or just things that those of the D&D mindset see as the next step?

 

To me, the enjoyable game would be one in which such things are not as black and white. The trick is to create a game world fabric in which undead or humanoids play a vital role. Ok, you can think orcs are smelly and stupid, but perhaps an orc tribe is the only thing standing between the rest of the world and an ancient evil. Kill the orcs, and whatever it is they were keeping there escapes. Sure, you may have an "evil" ruler, but once you kill the evil ruler an even WORSE ruler, or even bloody anarchy, pops up. A legendary king becomes undead to watch over and protect his people from beyond the grave. Should he be destroyed or lauded? There are plenty of ways to make a game world more nuanced and complicated. Much like real life, no?

 

Personally, I view the whole "kill the orc just because it's an orc" thing to be rather "evil" myself, actually, not to mention stupid. Genocide, anyone?

[Spence]

Re: Not D&D

 

With 6th Edition, Fantasy Hero and Bestiary coming out relatively soon; I am considering Gming a Fantasy Hero game. But there are some barriers in my way.

 

1. I don’t know D&D terminology or anything D&D. I played D&D only a couple of times in the late 1970s. I don’t remember much about it. I have played Fantasy Hero (but have always preferred Champions type games). What do I need to know?

 

Not a drawback, and as some have said, most likely a benefit. You won't be held back by preconceptions.

 

2. Deities: I am somewhat religious and do not like the idea of deities. It seems WAY too close to breaking the first and second commandment for my taste. How do I present this fact? (It would be an online game)

 

I simply do not define the overall religious picture in my worlds. I have settled on making all 'religious' types quasi-shrine types borrowing heavily from anime and manga I have read complete with shrine maidens and priests. But we never actually name/define anything beyond good/bad/trickster.

 

3. Hack and slash and greed game: Fantasy Hero games can sometimes be hack and slash. Go to point A' date=' kill a monster, steal it’s treasure. Got to point B, kill a monster, and steal it’s treasure., etc. I distinctly remember going into a D&D cave and doing such “activities”. I would like to downplay this., but Fantasy Hero is partially about survival. If a band of orcs or ogres attack the players, they are going to want to defend themselves. So how do you downplay it?[/quote']

 

Fantasy Hero isn't really any different than any other genre IMO. If you give your players plot-lines and adventures with more depth than just fighting. Something to sink their role-playing selves into that rewards more than just killing, they will give you a better session in turn.

 

Also make your non-PC creatures/beings smart. In a past game the players learned the hard way that goblins were not just throw away kills. They came across a small goblin village and just killed everything because "they were only goblins". Then had to fight their way back through 100 miles of rugged forestland hounded by the warriors of countless small bands and villages.

 

Gave them some perspective

 

Not to mention losing every single bit of loot and most of their equipment, supplies and on hand wealth in the running fight. Long term endurance can be a hoot

[Markdoc]

Re: Not D&D

 

I would fear that if I focus a game on my personal beliefs; not only would I not get any players to play' date=' but also end up in conflict with the players I do get. I don't mind the idea of battling orcs, ogres, and dragons. I just don't like the idea of making a hack and slash and greed the primary goal of the game. [/quote']

 

So don't. I ran a campaign for years in which none of the players were magic-users and magic - though often "in the background" was never a major focus. problems were solved with diplomacy, cunning intrigue or (more usually) fists and swords. There were priests and temples and evil cults, but I used (more or less) historical structures. Priests were people, like the PCs and temples were political players and sources of manpower, housing and finance - not wellsprings of magical power.

 

There was plenty of hacking and slashing, but the game wasn't - at all - about gathering loot. I didn't even bother to track the PCs' cash: they were simply "poor" "had enough" or "wealthy" depending on recent events. The whole focus for the players was about honor, duty and political power.

 

The nice thing about Hero - more so than most other games - is that you are totally free to make your own setting. You don't need to be tied down to the D&D-verse, if you don't want to go there.

 

If you are worried about player familiarity, there are plenty of settings you can choose that will be familiar to your players, but where high-magic, clerics and gods is a non-issue. The campaign I described above was set in fantasy asia (mostly Japan). But you could, as easily, use the exact same campaign with a few tweaks, in Romantic Arthurian Britain. There you have a distinctly Christian setting, but you can very easily focus on knightly adventures: it doesn't have to be - probably won't be, in fact - about the religious aspects. It's easy enough to simply tell your players that overt magic isn't available. But powers and magic castles, and all the fantasy paraphernalia is. And moral dilemmas - even overtly religious ones - are entirely appropriate.

 

If there's a fantasy series you and your players like, use that as a setting. Or just make up your own: simply tailor it to what you feel happy GM'ing/designing.

 

cheers, Mark

 

cheers, Mark

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Not D&D

 

I've been reading this with some interest. I am with everyone else who say that if you are uncomfortable then you dont do. That means about religion as well as sex or anything else.

 

My take is that you are playing a game. You want to play fantasy and you want magic and all the other stuff that goes with it. That's what you want to deliver to your players but the context of that magic and gods etc may tug at your conscience too much.

 

You could then change the context behind the world. The characters in the world do not have to know how the world works. Not even the players need to know how the world works but you could, in essence, be playing a Star Hero game where the players and characters think they are playing Fantasy Hero.

 

If the deities are essentially mega powerful machine intelligences running organic based programmes (they use the actions of humans on a backward planet to introduce randomness and insight to their machinations) and using advanced nano-technology to deliver magical effects to those who perform the required sequences on their behalf. The intelligences compete for processing units. There you have what appears to players and characters to be deities that they can pray to and have powers granted to them.

 

The magic in the world is a confounding factor introduced by other advanced lifeforms who want to confound the machine intelligences. These provide random individuals with the ability to produce magical seeming effects (either through the use of nanotechnology or perhaps, as suggested above, by enhancing these individuals to generate psionic effects). These people are your wizards etc.

 

None of the things you write down for the players need pierce this facade, they are seeing the world as the characters see it and are trying to manipulate it in the same ways. You know that there is no magical or clerical effects, simply the acquisition of technological or psionic abilities through the intervention of more developed civilisations. You also provide a backstory that may or may not be revealed if the characters played get powerful enough to find the curtain behind which these intelligences hide and exploit their world.

 

 

Doc

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Not D&D

 

conversely you could play it as a low powered champions game set in an alternate world

[quozaxx]

Re: Not D&D

 

I think I may also have gotten a little off the original track. So, let me show you kind of what I had in mind...

 

The Kingdom of Dannabar.

 

The Kingdom of Dannabar is a Fantasy Hero based game with some important differences. Please read the rules in Campaign Messages before applying

 

Please note the following non-standard rules for this game.

 

1. No deities. That’s right. No Odin, Zeus, or any of that. If you submit a character that worships such deities, your character will NOT be accepted. Nor will they be a part of the game.

 

2. Magic is a special effect only. Which means you can have magic and even the normal limitation associated with magic (gestures, incantations, focus, “magic” roll) but it will be treated no differently than if you were a mutant with probability manipulating powers. Yes, this is an important distinction for this game.

 

3. Not a hack and slash and greed game: Yes, you will face “monsters”. Yes you will hunt and fish and survive. Yes you will be able to defend yourselves. But this is not the main focus of the campaign. It’s not a go to point A, kill a monster, grab treasure then go to point B and do the same. If you are discovered taking a “magic” item from a dead person, you will be labeled as no better than a grave robber.

 

4. Role playing is essential: I need players willing to play a role. You need to interact with other players. You need to interact with npcs. Which means a high posting rate. (No less than 3 days apart). If you can only post once a week, maybe this campaign isn’t for you. If you like to sit and wait and wait and wait to be talked to before interacting, maybe this campaign isn’t for you.

 

-------

 

I don't want a "religious" game. This is going to be presented in Hero Central AFTER the new Bestiary and Fantasy Hero come out and I've had a chance to read them. I apologize if there has been any confusion.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Not D&D

 

So, unfortunatly I don't have that much great advice that hasn't been given already. Here's what I do have:

 

1) Go with what makes you comfortable, this specifically applies to gods, divine power, and characters ideas of theology. If you don't want them to be a big part of the game, don't focus on them and they won't be.

 

2) D&D simulates a very specific genre: D&D. If you want to tell a story that's not D&D genre, it doesn't matter at all that you don't know anything about it.

[AlHazred]

Re: Not D&D

 

FWIW, most of the original, inspirational fantasy novels/series that led to fantasy RPGs were not focussed on religions other than Christianity. Narnia is essentially Christian allegory, and while God is mentioned, religion is not obviously an institution of the fantasy world. Middle Earth was ostensibly based on Germanic-style epic poetry, but there are no religious organizations mentioned in the books; the cosmogenesis story in The Silmarillion is essentially Christian cosmogeny with a thin veneer of fantasy overlaid. Earthsea, despite being fantastically magical, implying that a being with a language created the world, and having a religious institution as the site of the second book, doesn't really delve into the real or unreal existence of gods; the "deities" of book two are apparently meant to be ancient heroes and the religious organization is an instrument of state tyranny.

I'm actually having a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea that you can have morality plays or intrigue in a game that doesn't involve religion or politics. Action can be mindless' date=' but sex and religion are the driving forces behind human society.[/quote']If I were overly sensitive, I could take exception to the idea that morality plays are necessarily religious in purpose. All state governments have attempted to legislate morality since Time Began, and in a preliterate society you'd need the use of a play to illustrate the concepts. Morality as a topic of inquiry has always been placed in the subject of Philosophy, not Theology. I will agree that religion and politics are big drivers of social forces, but the number one is probably economics.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Not D&D

 

Fantasy in literature -- at least good fantasy in literature -- has something about our world connected to it. That's how we understand it and are drawn into it. Good fantasy, like good science fiction, often revolves around the question "What if (theme or object de jour) were real and true?" Fantasy without that connection tends to be forgettable.

 

It doesn't have to be a connection to a specific object either. The Lord of the Rings worked because it was built around plausible dilemmas -- we wonder what we would do if we were in the impossible situations faced by Frodo and Sam or if we faced the choices Aragorn faced. Much about the world of Middle-Earth is inexplicable to us, but we are connected to it by the characters and the very real problems they face. It could be the value and limits of loyalty, the need to choose between safety and freedom, do we cherish or destroy what is alien -- any number of themes that resonate with human beings of this and future times.

 

It takes a rarely gifted GM to make an RPG campaign that has this degree of resonance, but even more so if he has to work with the very limited tools provided by D&D.

[Spence]

Re: Not D&D

 

 

If the deities are essentially mega powerful machine intelligences running organic based programmes (they use the actions of humans on a backward planet to introduce randomness and insight to their machinations) and using advanced nano-technology to deliver magical effects to those who perform the required sequences on their behalf. The intelligences compete for processing units. There you have what appears to players and characters to be deities that they can pray to and have powers granted to them.

 

 

That is eerily similar to the premise of the anime Scrapped Princess.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Not D&D

 

That is eerily similar to the premise of the anime Scrapped Princess.

 

Then I guess that proves there's nothing new in heaven or earth.

[DusterBoy]

Re: Not D&D

 

After all, when it's your created world we're talking about, then you are "Supreme Being", as it were and you can have whatever you want.

 

(PS: In Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion sequence, the gods are actually "emergent intelligences", who exist because humans exist (I think) and are not depicted as creators. According to Lois, the sequence of intelligence goes: animals, then humans, then gods. There is the Daughter of Spring, the Mother of Summer, the Son of Autumn and the Father of Winter. And then, last bu by no means least, there is the Bastard, god of things out of place. Lois says she deliberately did it that way to avoid the problems of duality.)

[azato]

Re: Not D&D

 

You may want to frame all of these in a more positive way. I think you are coming across a little too strong. Instead of stating what the game isn't tell people what the game IS.

 

 

I think I may also have gotten a little off the original track. So, let me show you kind of what I had in mind...

 

The Kingdom of Dannabar.

 

The Kingdom of Dannabar is a Fantasy Hero based game with some important differences. Please read the rules in Campaign Messages before applying

 

Please note the following non-standard rules for this game.

 

1. No deities. That’s right. No Odin, Zeus, or any of that. If you submit a character that worships such deities, your character will NOT be accepted. Nor will they be a part of the game.

 

2. Magic is a special effect only. Which means you can have magic and even the normal limitation associated with magic (gestures, incantations, focus, “magic” roll) but it will be treated no differently than if you were a mutant with probability manipulating powers. Yes, this is an important distinction for this game.

 

3. Not a hack and slash and greed game: Yes, you will face “monsters”. Yes you will hunt and fish and survive. Yes you will be able to defend yourselves. But this is not the main focus of the campaign. It’s not a go to point A, kill a monster, grab treasure then go to point B and do the same. If you are discovered taking a “magic” item from a dead person, you will be labeled as no better than a grave robber.

 

4. Role playing is essential: I need players willing to play a role. You need to interact with other players. You need to interact with npcs. Which means a high posting rate. (No less than 3 days apart). If you can only post once a week, maybe this campaign isn’t for you. If you like to sit and wait and wait and wait to be talked to before interacting, maybe this campaign isn’t for you.

 

-------

 

I don't want a "religious" game. This is going to be presented in Hero Central AFTER the new Bestiary and Fantasy Hero come out and I've had a chance to read them. I apologize if there has been any confusion.

[quozaxx]

Re: Not D&D

 

You may want to frame all of these in a more positive way. I think you are coming across a little too strong. Instead of stating what the game isn't tell people what the game IS.

 

 

I'll have to think on how to reword this.

[quozaxx]

Re: Not D&D

 

Let me know if this sounds better:

 

 

Welcome to the kingdom of Dannabar. Dannabar is located in another dimension. One where trolls, orcs, ogres, unicorns, and other fantastic beast exist. But there are some subtle differences that makes this game a little unusual from “traditional” Fantasy Hero games.

 

First, there are no deities. They never existed.

 

Second: Magic is a special effect. What does that mean for the potential player? Well, they have more freedom to choose what their character can do. So if you want your character to be a hunter that can freeze water - there’s no stopping your creativity here. But you are a Heroic character with 175 points and 50 matching complications. So you may have to choose lower level powers or additional limitations. (45 Active points is the cap. Luck and Unluck are maxed out at 3d6.)

 

Third, lots of role playing potential. In fact, I prefer players that can post about 3 times a week (if not more) If you can’t post that often, you may get lost in the background. I wouldn’t want that to happen.

 

Fourth: You may fight fearsome beasts, defend yourselves against a band of Ogres, or anything else normally associated with the genre, but that will not be the main emphasis. There are ways to obtain wealth, but “dungeon crawls” are not usually one of them. Most monsters don’t have treasure, and picking treasure off a dead guy???? Isn’t that grave robbing? Killing a sentient being - (Centaurs, Ogres, “Dark” elves, etc.) is a crime, and only done to defend yourself.

 

Fifth: No excessive vulgar language. My kids sometimes read what is written here. I’d like to keep it rated PG or an occasional PG-13, if you know what I mean.

[Markdoc]

Re: Not D&D

 

Your first post sounds like a game I wouldn't volunteer to play in. This post, on the other hand, sounds not only inviting, but quite interesting!

 

cheers, Mark