How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

[knightwriter]

I'm somewhat new to this system, having come from more d20 based systems. I am relishing the creative freedom that I have to do anything I want. I've been reading on the boards that a lot of people put down the DnD game, which is fine by me, however it got me to wondering what angle or viewpoint do Hero System gamers come from when viewing DnD. Is it just scoffed at for being a simple game? I am interested to hear what people think.

[AirborneRob]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

I'm somewhat new to this system' date=' having come from more d20 based systems. I am relishing the creative freedom that I have to do anything I want. I've been reading on the boards that a lot of people put down the DnD game, which is fine by me, however it got me to wondering what angle or viewpoint do Hero System gamers come from when viewing DnD. Is it just scoffed at for being a simple game? I am interested to hear what people think.[/quote']

 

No, i wouldn't say that D&D is scoffed at. After all it really is the grandfather of RPG's that also helped spawn various other games for people to enjoy. As much as i like HERO, D&D is still a very enjoyable game for me. In fact, alot of people enjoy other types of RPG's and you will see posts here that reflect that. Im a 2nd Ed D&D guy myself and have enjoyed 3.0 and the new Pathfinder system. Just my opinion, but as enjoyable as HERO is for me, if i want a fantasy game i go to D&D

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Whenever you go to a board for a particular game system youre not going to get the most unbiased perspectives regarding _other_ systems.

 

But, for all of that, I don't think people on these boards are generally dismissive of most other games. Most HERO System players view other games as rich sources from which to steal...er borrow...ideas from. There's a pretty strong tradition of converting other games to this game.

 

It is true though that HERO System players sometimes look down their noses at the _mechanics_ behind other games, vs the games themselves.

[knightwriter]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Maybe I was using to harsh of words. I don't mean any disrespect towards Hero gamers and their views. Possibly I could rephrase the question as, "If a gamer prefers the Hero System as their game of choice, how do they view the DnD game."

[AirborneRob]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Killer Shrike brought up a good point. Most people that play/run HERO will convert other systems into this one, one of the advantages of flexibility that HERO has. IMO, i doubt that the majority of folks take a dim view of D&D, it's more that they prefer the freedom of creativity that HERO offers.

[Wolf]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

This has caused issues in the past. As a whole, we have mostly played DnD, but we also feel that it's a very flawed system. The feeling goes from complete contempt through mild distain, to preference. Ragitsu even has a "Quit bashing other systems" on his sig because of several conversations he has gotten frustrated with due to some of the feelings on the board, but we all like to game, and most will play whatever, but gripe about the lack of Hero gaming they have gotten in. Others have been lucky enough that they have only played Hero for the last 20+ years. Here are some threads you can read through to see some of the sentiments... expressed, as it were.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/79642-D-amp-D-like-it-or-lump-it.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/80263-What-is-D-amp-D

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/74184-Is-Pathfinder-the-D-amp-D-Killer

 

I think that'll work for now. But I think it gives you an idea of how the board thinks as a whole.

[Wolf]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

As an afterthought:

Here is another one that shows how we tend to view our own beloved system, when it's critiqued.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/80564-The-Hero-System-is-bland-and-over-complicated

Edit: OR

The front lines of the "Edition Wars" witch admittedly isn't as bad as the D&D 3.5-4e war, but it was bad for how generally a positive Rep this board has...

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/75997-Who-is-sticking-to-4th-or-5th-Ed-HERO

[knightwriter]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Thanks for the views and the links Wolf!

[AirborneRob]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Those links are pretty good. It's really all about what you enjoy as a gamer. There is no such thing as an RPG that has no flaws and while some have more than others, in the end play and run what you like For me, I could play D&D or HERO or Robotech etc. and be happy because i enjoy the systems for what they offer. The one basic truism in any RPG is if there is something you dont like, change or eliminate it.

[Wolf]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Thanks for the views and the links Wolf!

 

No prob, just remember that "the squeaky wheel get's the grease" and most of these threads show some pretty "verbal" reactions about certain games... there are a great deal of others on the board who haven't commented at all in any of these threads. Some of that is that they just aren't regulars, with others, they have no opinion, and others still don't care/ don't care to comment in an internet, "my opinion is more valuable than your opinion" type debate... I'm sure there are other reasons. But For the most part I have seen that many people here left D&D many ages ago, looking for "more," and found it in Hero/Champions.

 

I've seen a great deal of dislike aimed at Hero on RPGNet, and it seems that there are folks who think that the philosophy used to develop the 5th+ editions should have gone in a different direction, or that "generic systems are all fatally flawed." I think some of these arguments have merit, but I've found a system that I dig, and I think, again, that others on here feel similar. I've found that I would like to Understand GURPS better than I do, because I can't seem to shake Hero from my brain when I try to "get" character generation, and so I get frustrated trying to do anything with that system... yet I still prefer Hero. But I think that I'm starting to venture outside of your question, so I'll depart. Though I'll probably watch to see where this conversation goes .

 

-Woof.

[Nolgroth]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Just wrote a long post that really didn't answer the question so let me try again. I personally don't look down on most other systems or games. If they do not have the tools I need to run the game I want, then I just don't use them. On the other hand, I do tend to scoff and boldly look down my nose at all systems' fanboys. I've read a lot of anti- "whatever my game of choice is" posts on nearly every forum I visit and they all just strike me as coming from the depths of complete ignorance. And I've seen those kinds of posts everywhere from here on the HERO boards to just about any other fan site. I suppose it is inevitable, but it is darn annoying.

 

For myself, I am an active advocate of the Shadowrun 3rd Edition rules and the D&D 4th Edition Essentials line, in addition to the HERO System. I've tried and played other systems, but those are the ones that appeal to me and provide me with those tools I mentioned previously. If I had time, I would try running a Pathfinder game as well. Just to test it out.

[Karmakaze]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

I'm somewhat new to this system' date=' having come from more d20 based systems. I am relishing the creative freedom that I have to do anything I want. I've been reading on the boards that a lot of people put down the DnD game, which is fine by me, however it got me to wondering what angle or viewpoint do Hero System gamers come from when viewing DnD. Is it just scoffed at for being a simple game? I am interested to hear what people think.[/quote']

 

Well, I can tell you that my issue with DnD (3.5 and 4 anyway) has nothing to do with it being a "simple" game. I have the exact opposite problem. It's not a system, it's a laundry list of one off rules and exceptions. The Player's Guide of 4E even says so, straight up: "Every class, race, feat, power, and monster in the D&D game lets you break the rules in some way." As far as I'm concerned, that's not simple -- that's the tax code! I do get the impression that people whose first game was D&D and who have iterated up through the systems are enough used to the "stacking exceptions" style that it doesn't throw them.

 

So my main emotional reaction to D&D is frustration, since I can and have run campaigns using HERO in multiple genres, Call of Cthulhu, Ars Magica, Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Hunter, and a handful of other systems. And then I find myself having trouble wrapping my mind around the game everyone else manages intuitively. I did have a series of modules I ran successfully at conventions by keeping to low level characters and emphasizing roleplay, using AD&D2 and DnD3.5, but after reading through the three core 4E books, I just gave up.

 

Past the idiosyncratic personal issue, though, my opinion is pretty straightforward: It's a perfectly good system that accomplishes what it sets out to do, but it's not the sort of game I, personally, like to play. For one, High Fantasy is not my favorite genre, and for another, it's much more focused on combat roles and miniatures-style strategy than I prefer. But for people who do like that genre and playstyle, it reads to me like it works well, and I hear from a lot of people who like it.

[薔薇語]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

HERO is the ONE TRUE SYSTEM. And DnD is but a pale, worthless, and incomplete imp of a competitor. ^^

 

Or something like that.

 

La Rose.

[rjcurrie]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Well' date=' I can tell you that my issue with DnD (3.5 and 4 anyway) has nothing to do with it being a "simple" game. I have the exact opposite problem. It's not a system, it's a laundry list of one off rules and exceptions. The Player's Guide of 4E even says so, straight up: "[i']Every class, race, feat, power, and monster in the D&D game lets you break the rules in some way.[/i]" As far as I'm concerned, that's not simple -- that's the tax code! I do get the impression that people whose first game was D&D and who have iterated up through the systems are enough used to the "stacking exceptions" style that it doesn't throw them.

 

So my main emotional reaction to D&D is frustration, since I can and have run campaigns using HERO in multiple genres, Call of Cthulhu, Ars Magica, Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Hunter, and a handful of other systems. And then I find myself having trouble wrapping my mind around the game everyone else manages intuitively. I did have a series of modules I ran successfully at conventions by keeping to low level characters and emphasizing roleplay, using AD&D2 and DnD3.5, but after reading through the three core 4E books, I just gave up.

 

Past the idiosyncratic personal issue, though, my opinion is pretty straightforward: It's a perfectly good system that accomplishes what it sets out to do, but it's not the sort of game I, personally, like to play. For one, High Fantasy is not my favorite genre, and for another, it's much more focused on combat roles and miniatures-style strategy than I prefer. But for people who do like that genre and playstyle, it reads to me like it works well, and I hear from a lot of people who like it.

 

Minus the parts about running games in other systems (I've only really GMed Traveller and HERO), Karmakaze has pretty much summed up how I feel about D&D.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Up until not very long ago, I was still playing, and enjoying, D20 - D&D 3.5 with a few house rules I slowly leaked into the group that were "hero-esque" (buying feats with XP, etc.) And I'm sure I will again. Even had a really interesting build going - was trying to do Zatoichi: The Blind Swordsmen using Monk / Martial Rogue Variant.

 

The main trouble with D20, in my experience, is that the balance breaks down at higher power levels, and you end up with some archetypes - mostly the non-caster classes - that just can't keep up.

 

But HERO can have the same problem if you aren't careful, so I suppose I just keep telling myself this because I have for so long.

 

Mostly the freedom of HERO and the logic, philosophy behind it has held me since day one and I have finally got my D20 group playing - and thoroughly enjoying - HERO.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Every game can be fun, and the rules can enhance or inhibit that. I won't presume to speak for others, but I play D&D, in all its flavors, including HM. I even run Pathfinder and generally enjoy it. However, there comes a point when you are trying to craft an adventure that you need the right toolset and the feel of the game you are trying to create.

 

My view of D&D is that it is what it is. Much in the same way I don't fault Risk for not allowing an Abort to Dodge, I don't fault D&D for the same. However, if my game is to be high dramatic action with lots of unique abilities, D&D might not be an adequate enough ruleset to meet my objectives.

 

I do like the ability to play a variety of genres in the same ruleset without relying on custom rules. As an example, this weekend I am running 4 events at U*Con. Gritty post apocalypse (Stalker), campy post apocalypse (Fallout), intricate fantasy (Narosia), and crazy supers (Marvel Zombies).

 

Could I do that with D&D/d20? Not really. I mean I could do some custom d20 Future stuff with highly customized D&D stuff for Narosia and then run Mutants and Masterminds but that really isn't the same thing. Each of those solutions would have slightly different variations to the rules (what's +4 in one system is +5 in another, different action choices, and so on). Whereas Hero is consistent across each of those games, even with some of the custom stuff we have done in Narosia.

 

So, D&D is like a good turkey sandwich. It's perfect if that's what you are hungry for.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

I would be happy to pick up and play just about any version of D&D. I don't expect the same things from it that I expect from HERO.

 

I think it's worth noting that a significant fraction of the posts on the Fantasy Hero forum are asking "How do I do [thing from D&D] in HERO?"

[RexMundi]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Not a Fan of DnD. Back in the Heyday, I played it because that's what everyone on the Base was playing, but even then, I was primarily Champions or FGU products, Traveller, Call of Cthulu etc ......but even before all that, I was a Wargamer, and I always considered DnD to be Proper Wargaming watered down for people that couldn't handle a real game.

 

I've mellowed a bit, and there are varients of d20 I even enjoy playing (Steves Wheel of Time book was a good OGL product (though I despise the setting, the rules approach was top notch for it), Monte Cooks World of Darkness was an interesting Twist, the StarWars SAGA edition and the upcoming E20 material from G.M. Sarli, is d20 at it's Mechanical Best.....).....so for the most part, I consider the DnD stuff to be a perfectly acceptable, ENTRY level RPG. Sort of the t-Ball and or Flag Football of Role Playing games......that ended with 3.x though (That would be, Up To Pathfinder)......4th Ed.....Can't really say anything good about other then the fact it's a Solid Skirmish Level miniature Game laid out in Card Game turn format.

 

~Rex.....Hero Straight Up.....Single Malt Pulp version Perfered. Any Genre, Anytime, Anywhere.

[Escafarc]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

I don't really enjoy playing other systems that much. I can't get past the fact that I could do it better with HERO.

[knightwriter]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

I would be happy to pick up and play just about any version of D&D. I don't expect the same things from it that I expect from HERO.

 

I think it's worth noting that a significant fraction of the posts on the Fantasy Hero forum are asking "How do I do [thing from D&D] in HERO?"

 

That's a very good point Chris. I have thought of how to do something in DnD in Hero mechanics without even realizing it.

 

Mudpyre8: I was hoping to make it down from Petoskey to be able to play in your Hero games, but real life has got in the way. Too bad for me, I was really looking forward to it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

I think it's worth noting that a significant fraction of the posts on the Fantasy Hero forum are asking "How do I do [thing from D&D] in HERO?"

 

Yeah, like it or not DnD is more or less the lingua franca of gaming. It's why I long ago converted D&D to the HERO System, not because I love DnD but because I love HERO and wanted a tool with which to entice players into giving it a try.

 

I ran many campaigns using such materials over the years and introduced many players to the HERO System therewith. In the end even games that started off as a direct conversion from an existing DnD campaign morphed into a proper HERO paradigm, and most actually started off as HERO System campaigns that just happened to use a DnD setting. I was able to introduce most groups brought in that way to at least one other genre using the system as well, exposing them to the true value of the HERO System -> one system, any setting.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Well...for my part I liked DanD until they hit the new edition...which to me...pulled it away from role playing and geared it even more towards miniature type and MMO type gaming(neither of which I particularly care for. HERO...in addition to its incredible flexibilty...is also a role player's system. There is no "loot". The reward is in the actual playing of the game(heaven forbid). The best experiences I've had with any RPG was always in the game itself and not the rewards.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

That's a very good point Chris. I have thought of how to do something in DnD in Hero mechanics without even realizing it.

 

Mudpyr8: I was hoping to make it down from Petoskey to be able to play in your Hero games, but real life has got in the way. Too bad for me, I was really looking forward to it.

 

Hey, just let me know when you come down in the area. We can always throw together a game.

[AirborneRob]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Well...for my part I liked DanD until they hit the new edition...which to me...pulled it away from role playing and geared it even more towards miniature type and MMO type gaming(neither of which I particularly care for. HERO...in addition to its incredible flexibilty...is also a role player's system. There is no "loot". The reward is in the actual playing of the game(heaven forbid). The best experiences I've had with any RPG was always in the game itself and not the rewards.

 

Lol, i agree, there is a definate MMO feel with 4th. Now without deviating too much, lol, as the original poster has seen so far, there are many opinions regarding D&D In the end, play what you enjoy and take everything posted here with a grain of salt

[mayapuppies]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

 

Overall, I'm not a fan of the D&D/PAthfinder mechanics regardless of edition. However, I've found some amazing game worlds that have been created for them. There are aspects of the system that I enjoyed (feats, prestige classes, etc.) but I've found that they work much better for me when converted over to Hero System.

 

That being said, I'm currently running several games in the Pathfinder setting with a heavily house ruled Rolemaster system that now includes feats and prestige classes.