Here be dragons... or Dragon?

[Dr Divago]

Hi all.

I have a "philosophical" problem

 

premise: my player are going in the Black Forest (huge sub artic forest). Here in the forest lies Balakarven Blacksmoke, a huge majestic dragon soo big and famous he got an entry in Turakian Age settings book

 

few times ago, they had a fight with three juvenile... pardon.. three "dragon knight" transformed in juvenile dragons; fight was clearly unfair and the dragons got killed in few turns with only one PC severly hurt (the other ones got almost no wound)

 

now, i know there is a big... enormous... huge difference between juvenile dragons and majestic ones; plus, Balakarven is more than just majestic, he got special powers and abilities (1). And i realistically think Balakarven is way too much for the party.

Obviously, i'm not planning a fight. Balakarven got no reason to attack the player; if he would a fight, i could fly over Narkosk (closer city available) and burn them out. Probably he would ignore this few mammals, and if they go around his lair he could start talking them.

My idea is using it to give them some hints about something in the campaign, and if they play it well they could get an help for a future adventure. Also, he could be a plot device in the future (or present). Mostly, he would be a pleasent occasion for roleplay.

 

But, you know the truth: when in the GM's mind is a Doctor Who episode, the player transform it in The Expendables movie

yesterday they where arguing about the dragon and somene said (while talking around the fireplace) "i hope this dragons last more than 2 turns. last fight was too easy" "you know, dragons are not difficult. we killed three of them in little more than one turn". and similar talking

so my fear (more a plausible account than a suspect... ) is they whant a fight. (2)

But i know, if they attack the dragon they could get killed (almost all or at least someone).

 

so, the problem is:

a) i keep the dragon as intended, aka a huge overpowering monster they had to roleplay it or they get killed if attacking, or

change of plans and make them fight a suitable monster (an hydra, one or two wyvern, etc)? no roleplay intended but more fight for them?

 

 

 

(1) honestly i don't remember if Balakarven got entry in MMM, or it's just a named big monster in TA book; in the latter case, i would give him more than usual special power, like AoE for wing/tail attack, different breath options, etc

(2) yesterday they gone under a faerie eye, a 1519 point with a 300 point vpp aes sidhe, who just had fun with them throwing some pranks. It was an occasion intended for roleplay, they just started with "someone is attacking us with illusions. we need to kill them" u.u

[Manic Typist]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

Sounds like you need to have a talk with your players about expectations and what everyone is looking for in the game.

[dmjalund]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

arrange it so the PCs have the option of backing out if things get too hard.

[Cancer]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

so, the problem is:

a) i keep the dragon as intended, aka a huge overpowering monster they had to roleplay it or they get killed if attacking, or

change of plans and make them fight a suitable monster (an hydra, one or two wyvern, etc)? no roleplay intended but more fight for them?

 

My suggestion is: Both. Swap in a proxy that almost kills them, or better still, does kill one or two of them. Make it just one critter (though a hydra with lots of heads, each of which moves independently and has a different power, may be a great way to tailor the enemy for the PC party). And then at the end make it clear to the survivors that this critter was just an intermediate-level minion of the Named Big Bad.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

Let them fight a dragon, not Balakarven Blacksmoke, but a suitably powerful dragon to give them a serious challenge (I'd recommend some Damage Reduction and/or Damage Negation). Then mention that Blacksmoke is way more powerful than the dragon they only narrowly dispatched, so they won't be so eager to tangle with Blacksmoke.

 

Now if you want to be nice, the dragon they kill was encroaching on Blacksmoke's territory, so Blacksmoke is favorably inclined toward the PCs (not that he couldn't have dispatched the rival, but the PCs saved him the trouble).

 

If you want to make the PCs sweat, the dragon they killed was one of Blacksmoke's children. Blacksmoke might be indifferent, dragons not being very maternal or considering any spawn that couldn't handle a few adventurers to be a weakling anyway, or he might be angry. He may send them on a side quest to mollify him, like retrieving the slain dragon's hoard. Make the PCs sweat more by noting Blacksmoke may or may not know the exact amount and composition of the hoard. Do the PCs keep some for themselves or not? What happens if a thief or a fairy playing a prank steals some of the treasure?

[Ternaugh]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

So, the PCs want to brag about how easy it would be to take down Blacksmoke?

 

Let them get overheard by the innkeeper, who, fearing for the safety for his town (after what Blacksmoke did to that other one), gets together a mob to run them out in the middle of the night. Give them a few moments of confusion, as their stuff is grabbed away from them, and, if necessary, physically carry them and dump them in the woods. Imply heavily that Blacksmoke has eyes and ears everywhere, and that the neighboring towns and cities are genuinely afraid of his wrath.

 

Later, let them see the other town (or at least the scorched outlines of it). For an added touch, include the "shadow" of an armored figure etched into the scorched bricks of a ruined wall--and a little puddle of melted metal where the figure would have been standing (a half-melted magic sword would be a nice touch, too). For real added menace, include a few pockets of "dragon fire" that can't be extinguished, and continue to burn years after the event.

 

The goal is to paint Blacksmoke as something literally larger than life, and not something to be trifled with.

 

It the PCs insist on fighting Blacksmoke, make sure to carefully design the lair (as Blacksmoke would have). Start taunting them as soon as they enter ("I can hear your puny hearts beating. Oh, how easy it would be to make that sound stop." "Is that fear that I smell? Good. It flavors the meat so well." "I let you live until this point because you interested me. Pray that I do not become bored.") Use traps to disorient and tire the PCs as they progress through the lair. Make sure that there are no safe places within for them to rest (I'd even start assessing LTE to show how tired that they are becoming).

 

There's really no need for him to engage in melee; use long range attacks (like his flaming breath weapon or spells). Throw in some physical obstructions, and add a few environmental effects. I'd recommend looking at The Book of Dragons for assistance with this, and would suggest using the Majestic Dragon as a starting point. Definitely add in some Damage Negation, perhaps some increased levels specifically with DCV (to counter the size penalty), and add in some magic. Heck, if there were a lot of previous dragon hunters like the party, let the dragon have a variety of powerful magic items that he uses as well.

 

So, for example, imagine that the PCs have reached the main chamber. They face a huge, fog-filled chamber, where they can barely see their hand in front of their face, and where the cold, penetrating mist literally seems to be sapping them of some of their strength*. There is the sound of running water from somewhere in the fog, and they sometimes see movement out of the corner of their eye. If they move forward, they encounter a freezing cold lake in their way. Their voices echo strangely in the mist. Then dragon's voice comes from all around them, and from nowhere in particular, "Very good. You've made it here to me. Time for you to die."

 

JoeG

*Change Environment is your friend here.

[Darbor]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

Wow! I like all of Joe's suggestions. As an alternative, or in addition to seeing the burned town you could have your adventurers come upon the charred remains of the last adventurers that tried Blacksmoke. Those remains could be just outside the lair or a short way inside.

[Old Man]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

I'd just show them one of Balakarven's footprints, which would be about the size of one of those dragons they slew so easily...

[Tasha]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

Or have them confront the dragon. Assume the dragon has been holding a phase since the players entered his lair. When he sees them, have him laugh about not killing whelps. He breathes a huge AOE Normal Damage attack. Something like 14-16d6 Normal. Enough to do body to all of the PC's, but not enough to kill them. It should also do enough damage to stun(exceed Con with Stun damage after def.) a PC outright, if not knock them unconscious (run out of Stun). You should increase the damage if the PC's all have enough armor + PD to not take body.

After the PCs die, have the Dragon Lift one Magic item per PC (easy to lose that nightvision ring you hate) or something of equal value. Then have him drop the PC's off by a city that is close enough that they know the dragon, but would be a couple of days walk/ride to get back to the lair.

 

Basically the Dragon sees the PC's as things to minor that they aren't even worth eating. They aren't even worth the magic items they brought with them to harass him. So he take a toll to teach them a lesson about dragons. Perhaps he was in a good mood that day having had eaten some great tasting cattle or something. Perhaps he sees that doing this will enchance his rep (remember that the PC's should lose some body in this. Even if you have to pull out the KA's off screen). It will be obvious that the PC's annoyed the dragon.

 

Sometimes PC's need to know that it's ok to bypass a challenge that is either not currently harming anyone and is way too powerful for the PC's to tackle at this time. You could use this run in as a long term campaign goal. To get enough knowledge, gear, magic etc to defeat the dragon.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

Mmmhhh... i was thinking...

why should the dragon wait for them to enter inside his lair?

he should confront them outside the lair, where he could fly away and then use flyby attacks, or aoe tail sweep, wing buffet and like just to keep them down; and while they awake they are distant from dragon and the lair (bit difficult in the city 'cause it's very distant)

 

i should go for heavy stun damage and dragon mocking them, and this is a nice advantage so i could beat them AND leave them alive

it would also be their Kobayashi Maru u.u

 

btw, i was talking with a player today; he share my concerns so i suppose there could be an evolution

i'm a bit worried, but maybe (i say it: maybe) they would talk with the dragon without attacking him... maybe...

 

(sorry for bad english... i'm a bit tired and it's laaaaaaaaaaate here x_x )

[Dr Divago]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

ok, after reading your advices, i made my decision:

they will fight a minor threat and then they confront with Balakar.

in this way if they need help, Balakar could be a deus ex machina saving them (and then asking for a reward or something else)

if they kill the other one, then should be wise enough to talk Balakar (bigger and not aggressive) without attacking him

 

my only concern, is if they actually start talking the other dragon... (never be surprised by your player...) and they could also decide to ally with it to fight Balakar (i doubt but they could...)

 

PS:

(1) it's better a lesser dragon with some nice power up, or a greater dragon?

the first one could give a fair fight, but could ends up in thrashing them too easy if they got some luck; on the other side, the latter one could be very dangerous and almost lethal, forcing me to use Balakar like a deus ex machina to save them (and this is rarely well accepted...)

 

(2) dragon could use their breath attack for normal damage? i mean similar to club weapon maneuver?

i don't remember the rules, but i'm pretty sure someone can use HKA attack for normal damage (wher 1d6 killing -> 3d6 normal as usual) but i don't remember if they could for ranged attack. i can always buy a EB breath in teh multipower

[The Weapon]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

Have the characters expressed this wish in the presence of any NPCs? If they mention it simply have the NPCs tell them exactly how out of their league they are. Any effort at gathering information on Balakarven Blacksmoke will give them the information that he's WAY bigger than the one's they killed. Presumably their fame as dragon killers has spread. Have people talk to them about their success, perhaps congratulate them in the hopes of getting free beer. During the bragging session someone mentions that those were jueveniles and very small. Still formidable of course and no doubt you'll go on to kill. If they don't believe then have an old (preferably permanently wounded) verteran show the claw from a medium sized dragon to clue them in. There are lots of ways to introduce the subject of just how kickass this guy is. If you give them the information and they go ahead, well it's their funeral.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

If they want to just stab it in the face, you should determine if this problem can be solved by face stabbings. If you feel that this problem is one where the application of face stabbings is appropriate, I would change it to a monster which you are not attached to and want to see the players kill.

 

If you want this to be a huge “don’t attack this, it will kill you” sign, that’s harder. Modifying player behavior really depends on the PCs and I don’t know yours, so you should discount my advice if you don’t think it would work:

 

Usually my groups investigate things we plan to kill if we can, so drop lots of hints that this dragon totally kills epic heroes and is considered a heroic way to die (fighting this thing). If they still want to fight it, use a giant PRE attack to open up the combat. Losing your first action is a solid way to suggest that leaving is appropriate. Sprinkle that with “the dragon is disinclined to pursue” or else players will just reason that they can’t outrun it any more than they can outfight it (since chases are completely non-random)

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

If you are going to err, do so on the side of too powerful. A powerful dragon might not finish off the PC's for any number of reasons (the PC's aren't worth troubling with, it wants the PC's to live so they can spread the fearsome its reputation, it just gets bored with the PC's, it has a hot date with that cute dragon on the other side of the forest, etc.) but a wimpy dragon just gets killed which will only compound problem of overconfidence in the PC's.

 

You can define the dragon's breath as a Killing attack or a normal one, or even give it a Multipower to give it both if that is convenient. As noted above, a big PRE attack in the beginning will put the PC's at a serious disadvantage, especially if followed up with a tail-sweep or area affect fire breath that hits the whole party.

[Darbor]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

my only concern' date=' is if they actually [b']start talking[/b] the other dragon... (never be surprised by your player...) and they could also decide to ally with it to fight Balakar (i doubt but they could...)

Knowing my GM's tendency to help us understand the level of threat, I would say that the smaller dragon would know better than attack the larger dragon with or without the help of the adventurers so the GM would never have the smaller dragon suggest it or agree to it...unless the smaller dragon were trying to trick the party into a suicide mission and would abandon them. At least if the smaller dragon were being deceitful it would be potentially detectable by the PCs.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

What is the general feeling about humanity held by Balakarven? Not worth bothering with? A minor nuisance? A supplier of tasty vittles like cattle and sheep? There must be some reason other than paranoid fear that he's essentially being left alone.

 

Perhaps he has a truce of sorts with the local government. They supply a suitable form of tribute (such as supplying him with food) and he leaves their cities and towns alone. The humans know he can wreck a city without breaking a sweat. He knows that he would have trouble facing down a large army. This way everyone stays in the status quo until something tips the balance. Mutual Assured Destruction.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

What is the general feeling about humanity held by Balakarven? Not worth bothering with? A minor nuisance? A supplier of tasty vittles like cattle and sheep? There must be some reason other than paranoid fear that he's essentially being left alone.

 

Perhaps he has a truce of sorts with the local government. They supply a suitable form of tribute (such as supplying him with food) and he leaves their cities and towns alone. The humans know he can wreck a city without breaking a sweat. He knows that he would have trouble facing down a large army. This way everyone stays in the status quo until something tips the balance. Mutual Assured Destruction.

"You awaken beside the flaming ruins of the town/village you set out from..."

 

My own piece of advice? You're not your player's nanny.

[Darbor]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

My own piece of advice? You're not your player's nanny.

Excellent! My take on this is, give enough of an indication to the player's of the potential consequences of what they will have their characters do and then step back and let them make their own decisions.

[Old Man]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

But-- if you do that, then how can you railroad them into acting out the plot you want?

[Markdoc]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

But-- if you do that' date=' then how can you railroad them into acting out the plot you want? [/quote']

 

keep killing them when they wander off-track - eventually they'll get the message

 

cheers, Mark

[Darbor]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

keep killing them when they wander off-track - eventually they'll get the message

 

cheers, Mark

*sigh* I must spread more rep.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

Excellent! My take on this is' date=' give enough of an indication to the player's of the potential consequences of what they will have their characters do and then step back and let them make their own decisions.[/quote']

last sessione they asked me "does i know something about this dragon? i got a KS: Dragons". then rolled

then follewed description something similar to "it's one of few dragons you know by name. it's almost legendary"

and they planned a longer way just to AVOID the dragon

 

maybe my PRE Attack was successfull?

[Dr Divago]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

But-- if you do that' date=' then how can you railroad them into acting out the plot you want? [/quote']

i don't whant railroad anyone...

just, i'm prepared for what i *know* they will do...

[Lucius]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

If there is an enormous, powerful dragon, an emperor among dragons, and some hero or band of heroes thinks they can just go up to it and disembowel it like any other beast - someone should warn them that they're just trying to open a Khan of Wyrms.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Above jest copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Here be dragons... or Dragon?

 

If there is an enormous, powerful dragon, an emperor among dragons, and some hero or band of heroes thinks they can just go up to it and disembowel it like any other beast - someone should warn them that they're just trying to open a Khan of Wyrms.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Above jest copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

 

Ouch! Clever, but ouch!