The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

I've redesigned Timelapse (from V, V, & V) to have Summon Future Self... which he proceeds to abuse mercilessly. All is going well - but in an upcoming scenario, his future 'clone' is going to be killed by accident. So he's going to do anything - anything - to avoid his own premature demise. The only thing is, it has already happened. It can't be undone.

 

Not that it's going to stop him kidnapping scientists and making them 'find a way out' - or messing around with a dangerously powerful super-device...

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

If clones were that easy to make' date=' I'm willing to bet the porn industry would crank out movies like The Bohner Identity, starring Matt Raymond as Jason Bohner and Franka Pontangue as Mary.[/quote']

 

Looking back at this, I'm thinking this post maybe isn't as clear as I first thought it to be. Basically, porn industry clones of mainstream celebrities would have similar but distinct names, much in the same way that many porn movies parody mainstream movies in name and appearance.

[Christopher]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

How is this "fixed"? The usual approach against paradoxons is the "alternate Timeline" strategy.

 

Also, he now knows exaclty how he will die, so he can build a special resurrect that only works for that one circumstance.

Falling into lava? What a luck that he had his "Lava Shield 5000" handy before he headed the call....

Neck broken? What a luck he knew he needed Regenerative nanites with Neck Repair that day.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Yep

 

yep. Gitmo.

 

at least in the real-ish world.

 

In a more standard Champions setting I could see going with an isolated UNTIL run Island style reeducation colony. Engineer a virus that leaves a random marker tag so they can be told apart in tests. Socialize them and let them bleed back into the world, or repurpose them into a cadre of loyal UNTIL soliders. Same could be said from PRIMUS

[Lucius]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Exactly why the laws of my world are so strict regarding this. And repped. It's the same reason Mind Control isn't considered an acceptable defense in court' date=' too. And repped.[/quote']

 

out of morbid curiosity, does that mean a villain can mind control a citizen into committing a crime, and the citizen will be tried and convicted and the mind controller essentially gets off scot free?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Buying 26 COM for a 5th Ed version of a palindromedary

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Buying 26 COM for a 5th Ed version of a palindromedary

 

Bwahahaha! That palindromedary will be a pretty patsy...I spent my points on Mind Control...

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

out of morbid curiosity, does that mean a villain can mind control a citizen into committing a crime, and the citizen will be tried and convicted and the mind controller essentially gets off scot free?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Buying 26 COM for a 5th Ed version of a palindromedary

 

If this were the case, then "Mind Control Jammers" (most placebos) would be sold at every chain store in the country. Some would even work!

[Christopher]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Also, he now knows exaclty how he will die, so he can build a special resurrect that only works for that one circumstance.

Falling into lava? What a luck that he had his "Lava Shield 5000" handy before he headed the call....

Neck broken? What a luck he knew he needed Regenerative nanites with Neck Repair that day.

And if a Body is needed: Duplication (very few points) + Temporal movement; with IPE for normal vision and one unrecoverable charge, set to just go of the millisecond before his neck hits breaking thing. Few people will notice the one thing of his equipment missing, or deduce it's effects.

 

Exactly why the laws of my world are so strict regarding this. And repped. It's the same reason Mind Control isn't considered an acceptable defense in court' date=' too. And repped.[/quote']

Do you mean:

Using Mind Controll is not considered allowed to stop a crime?

Or that someone has to proove he was mind controlled, or is persumed guilty?

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Do you mean:

Using Mind Controll is not considered allowed to stop a crime?

Or that someone has to proove he was mind controlled, or is persumed guilty?

 

Seems to me that, if Mind Control isn't an acceptable defense in court, that even if you do prove you were mind controlled, you're still guilty.

[Balabanto]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Then every villain gets away forever. Mind Control is not provable. What lawyer worth his salt wouldn't say "Your honor, my client was mind controlled. He's not responsible for any of it." Jails would be EMPTY. How do you prove a target was mind controlled to commit crimes? This is why people are innocent until proven guilty rather than the other way around. You can still have reasonable doubt and fail to convict, but the Mind Control Defense means all crimes were performed against the victim's will. This turns the court system into a mockery and justice into a fraud.

 

Who would want to roleplay in a world like that?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Is there no in-between? Lawyers bring in expert witnesses all the time to explain esoteric details to juries. Surely in a superhero world, someone somewhere can do some psychic poking-around and find a disconnect between parts of the brain involving judgment and motor functions.

[Clonus]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Then every villain gets away forever. Mind Control is not provable. What lawyer worth his salt wouldn't say "Your honor' date=' my client was mind controlled. He's not responsible for any of it." Jails would be EMPTY. How do you prove a target was mind controlled to commit crimes??[/quote']

 

You start by proving someone with apparent mind control powers was somewhere in the vicinity. (It helps if there are other people who suddenly started to behave oddly). You continue by introducing expert witnesses who testify as to whether you were non compos mentis during the crime, and make sure to provide character witnesses to establish that the accused was not behaving in a fashion characteristic of their normal behaviour.

[SKJAM!]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

In the DC Universe, there are indeed expert witnesses who can testify as to the residual energies left by mind control, such as Dr. Mid-Nite.

 

eta: Yes, if Mind Control isn't a defense, then Dr. Mindcontroller can simply destroy anyone he wants to by mindcontrolling them to commit crimes in public, so they can't provide an alibi.

[Christopher]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

That is where a Detect (Previous use of Mindcontroll on Target) would come in handy. I still think it would be possible with the rules.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Timelapse's case is a warning -- i.e. do not screw about with the time line like you have a remote control!

 

I take the view that if my players want to do time travel, fine. We'll go do Dr. Who.

 

I have lots of stuff to work with that don't need me acting like my campaign is a really bad season of Star Trek: Voyager.

[Lucius]

The Palindromedary Mind Controlled Me to Post This

 

Then every villain gets away forever.

 

If, and ONLY if, Balabanto is running the game, and not, as far as I know, in any other case whatsoever.

 

You are talking as if this is some logical consequence of what has gone before. It is merely a choice you have made, and in no way logically derives from any premise so far stated.

 

Mind Control is not provable.

 

And why is it not provable? Because Balabanto says so, and for no other reason. This is, again, a choice you have made. If you truly dislike it, nothing but you is keeping you from making a different choice.

 

This turns the court system into a mockery and justice into a fraud.

 

I will agree, based on things you have posted both here and elsewhere, that in Balabanto's world the court system seems a mockery and justice a fraud. I think you may have actually succeeded in creating a fictional justice system that not only is less just, but makes less sense, than the real one.

 

Or perhaps this is normal for comic book worlds; although at one time I did read a lot of comics and I don't recall it being like that. In any case, your world is the way it is only because you have made it so.

 

So, the choices you make lead you, in your opinion to this choice to be made: Either a lawyer may say in court “My client was a victim of mind control” or they may not.

 

If they may, you say it follows that no one can ever be convicted and the legal system, and thus society, will inevitably break down into chaos. It boggles my mind to even type that out; it is pure balderdash, but based on some tangle of largely unspoken, and I suspect unexamined, assumptions, it is what you claim to be the case, so let it stand.

 

If they may not, apparently every character with Mind Control has legal immunity, and can never be held legally accountable, mostly because you have decided that “Mind Control is not provable.” Your “solution” to the “problem” you have created – that the legal system taking cognizance of “Mind Control” as a possibility (whatever that actually means and however it's defined in your game; whatever it is it's obviously not provable) leads to a kind of legal anarchy – is to ensure that every victim of Mind Control used to commit a crime is at risk of being victimized again by the courts, with apparently no hope of justice at all.

 

Perhaps this is part of a justification for vigilantism? “The System” obviously does not work at all, thus explaining why the players get to play costumed vigilantes working outside the system to stop the bad guys, like evil Mind Controllers?

 

Who would want to roleplay in a world like that?

 

The munchkin part of me wants to play in your game, if I get to play a powerful Mind Controller. Whatever else, I could never be arrested or sent to prison. But really, I'm not sure I'm that much of a munchkin. If you were still running 5th Edition maybe I'd want to play with a COM of 70....

 

But I think the real question is, why do you want to run a world like that?

 

Not that I expect an answer. I don't even intend to waste much time wondering about it. I probably wouldn't understand it anyway.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary at least doesn't worry about Mind Control. When it comes to minds, it's in a class by itself.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

In fairness to Balabanto, those of us who do not play in his games have only seen snippets and snapshots of goings-on in his game world, and I hesitate to pass judgement based on incomplete information. Having read posts in these forums from some of his players, and having talked to one such player many years ago at GenCon, it seems that his games are enjoyable to the players. (Though I have to disagree with Balabanto about a high COM being equivalent to Mind Control.) So I figure, different strokes for different folks.

 

That said, in my game world (no more or less valid than anybody else's), PRIMUS has access to machines that, if used on a target of mental powers soon enough afterward, can detect and record traces and signatures of said powers. I based this on the optional Mental Signatures and Mental Traces section from The Ultimate Mentalist, pp 264-265. This isn't foolproof, but then again what is? But such evidence can be used to support a possible legal defense when mind controlled. Additionally, IANAL, but even without such evidence it seems to me that there must be legal defenses in the real world for acting under duress. Surely you can't be more "under duress" than being mind controlled.

 

("Yes, you can, and stop calling me Shirley.")

 

As to every lawyer under the sun claiming their clients were all mind controlled to commit crimes -- in the real world, criminals claim things like "the cops planted those drugs / that weapon / that evidence on me" all the time. (In a world with superheroes, I wouldn't be surprised to hear similar claims against them.) That's why we have juries, to gauge the veracity of such claims. I don't imagine every jury in every courtroom would roll over and believe every such claim, but maybe in Balabanto's world they do. (shrug)

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

That said' date=' in my game world (no more or less valid than anybody else's), PRIMUS has access to machines that, if used on a target of mental powers soon enough afterward, can detect and record traces and signatures of said powers.[/quote']

 

Yep, this tech is not unheard of. In SG1 there's the Tok'ra device called the ZA'TARC DETECTOR.

[Christopher]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

Yep' date=' this tech is not unheard of. In SG1 there's the Tok'ra device called the ZA'TARC DETECTOR.

This is more a "in Progress" detector, but a good example.

In Star Trek there often were traces "small anomalies in the Brainwaves/Neurochemistry, but nothing out of the order" as a hint to "previous" Mental Manipulation. All the more effective ways of MC were usually easy to detect with a simple Scan of the Brain while in Progress.

 

And as soon as you rule it leaves a "mental signature" or there a scanners that can detect them after being used, that's it.

 

Also, for a Mental Manipulation Scanner:

Mental Awareness (5 Base Points) + Discriminatory (5 Base Points), Range (Free for Mental Group) = 10 base Points

OAF (Scanner; -1)

Real Cost: 5 Points.

 

And next I try the "retroactive Mental manipulation Scanner"

[dmjalund]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

I see Mind Controlled as being an active defense, where the onus is switched to the defense bearing the burdon of proof, like temporary insanity or self-defense.

[Christopher]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

And here is the right tool for it:

 

Retroactive Mental Manipulation Detector (Compound Power):

Mental Awareness as handscanner (see above) (10 Base Points); Active Cost Part: 10

plus

Clairsentience + Retrocognition (40 Base Points), Requires a Roll (appropirate SS, Forensics or Similar Skill; -1/4), One Sense Only(Mental Awareness only; -1/4), Retrocognition Only (-1), Time Modifiers (-1/2); Active Cost Part: 13

Active Cost for generall Limitations: 23

Generall Limitations: Obvious, Accesible, Immobile Focus (Something around a "X-ray computed tomography"-machine; -2)

Real Cost: 8

At the worst calculation Model, the Active Points cost would be 50, but both values are still less than those of most automatic firearms.

 

Both should have a Eidetic Memory added, or be linked up to an Eidetic Memory device (computer).

Both still require a INT-Roll from the character to find the proof and neither works against a Mental Power with total IPE (for that, a different detect, maybe with Analysing, is nessesary).

[Lucius]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

For retroactive detection, all you need is the Tracking Adder on Mental Awareness. With Discriminatory of course if you want to be able to say things like "These two were controlled by the same mind, but this third was controlled by someone else."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

I think tracking is only to follow the trail of someone. Otherweis you might use Tracking for Sight to archieve retrocognition

It might lead you to the one who is using a Constant Power, but won't allow you to find evidence.

[Lucius]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

I think tracking is only to follow the trail of someone. Otherweis you might use Tracking for Sight to archieve retrocognition

It might lead you to the one who is using a Constant Power, but won't allow you to find evidence.

 

No, you can't use Tracking for Sight to achieve Retrocognition. Nor can Tracking on Mental Awareness achieve Retrocognition, nor have I said it would.

 

Tracking Sight would give you something similar to what Tracking Scent does: The ability to detect visual (as opposed to olfactory) traces of who or what has been in a place recently, and perhaps clues as to what happened. It enables tracing those traces and determing where someone or something came from or went to. If paired with Discriminatory, and arguably even without Discriminatory, it may even enable matching those traces to an individual, or at least find out where they buy shoes.

 

Tracking Sight does not give you a vision of what took place in a given place at some past time, nor does Tracking Scent give you a vision...err, an olfaction of past events that you can smell just as if you'd been there. Nor does Tracking Mental Awareness give you a vision....err, a mentation, of someone's perceptions and thoughts at some point in the past.

 

So Tracking Mental Awareness could, for example, tell you that a given mind has been contacted or tampered with in the recent past ("recent" being I would say a campaign dependent judgment call, but just as a bloodhound probably can't track someone who came through a couple of years ago, mental traces probably fade with time as well); probably determine that coercive mental powers (Mind Control, to use the mechanical name) were used; if joined with Discriminatory, it should absolutely let you match those mental traces to a mind you have come in contact with before, or recognize that mind if you meet it later. It could possibly even give you enough familiarity to Mind Scan for that specific mind, although without Mind Scan I don't think it would let you track them down the way Tracking Scent would. Unless the power is still active, in which case, I say that yes Tracking would let you follow the trace and find the mentalist.

 

In short, Tracking Scent will "allow you to find evidence." Tracking Vision would "allow you to find evidence." And so would Tracking Mental Awareness. Whether any of these kinds of evidence are admissible in court is another matter of course.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants Tracking Cent, to find out where the money goes

[Christopher]

Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones!

 

It sounds like a good argument. The only problem is see is, that it only detects the powers used, target and user. So when he does not uses a power, he leaves no trail that can be picked up (like someone masking his scent/trails).

But I think when you buy it up to a 10 Points detect, and add discriminatory before tracking (I think it is an requirement, as tracking is a better dicriminatory) it should allow you to get the "Mental Signature" of the powers user. That signature would be something you could track.

I thought a little about how usefull detects could/should be and think 10-point detect might be able to detect anything that isn't inherently invisible to it or has an invisiblity bought for it (and by inherently invisble means like Desolid makes you "invisible" to touch or not having a "life force").

 

That gives me a few good question I can drop at the rules question forum. But perhaps we should start a new tread for it. This one was about Clones but drifted to MC again.