GoldenAge Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Okay, who hasn't used them. We've seen them in the service of Viper and all over the comics we love. They're a GREAT plot device and are entirely expendable... But what then? In my most recent Epic City arc the New Reich (Link to Nazi evil) employ an army of clones. They will be quite a challenge for Epic City's heroes (Epic Alliance), but I'm sure the clones will be defeated. So what then? Cloning is the ultimate form of identity theft. Under normal circumstances the law would simply erase the stolen identity and return it to its original owner. But, in this case, does that mean the execution of hundreds of living beings (who were never part of their inception)? What would your government do?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! The logical thing to do is to issue the clones new Social Security Numbers. They can even keep the original name, unless for some reason they want to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! How "durable" are these clones? Due to how they were created, will they just degenerate and die in the span of a few months anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! How "durable" are these clones? Due to how they were created' date=' will they just degenerate and die in the span of a few months anyway?[/quote'] When the should happen to land in Current Germany, I hope they have a lot of lifespan left: "Don't worry. I think in about 10 Years they will have decided, what process they will use to decide how to deal with this issue. And then I can only be two more decades..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenAge Posted April 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! These clones were incubated to full adulthood and know nothing more than their psychological indoctrination into the New Reich, their enhanced electronic education (limited, of course) and their brief but intense physical training. They have a full life expectancy. Here's their description (which can be found in the PDF at the link in the first post): The New Reich’s chief tool of terror is their elite cadre of assassins, the Attentäter. Each Attentäter is equipped with reinforced polymer atmospheric suit allowing them to survive in unusual atmospheres and even buried underground for extended periods of time. In addition they each carry a two sonic blades of Panzermensch’s design and a high-caliber pistol. The Attentäter are supplied with various other weapon technologies depending on the needs of their current mission. NOTE: The Attentäter are clones, each a duplicate of the first Swastika; Heinrich Schmidt. Until his recent expulsion from the New Reich Schmidt was the Attentäter tactical leader, that role has since been assumed by the new Swastika; Deiter Von Reiniger. It should be noted that, while the Attentäter are exact clones of the original Swastika, they neither have his years of field experience nor benefit from biomechanical or psychological enhancements. Nonetheless, they are a force to be feared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! They should be retrained, rehabilitated, and integrated into society. It's the 21st Century. Modern times leave no room for mindless agamogenetophobia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! NOTE: The Attentäter are clones' date=' each a duplicate of the first Swastika; Heinrich Schmidt. [b']Until his recent expulsion from the New Reich[/b] Schmidt was the Attentäter tactical leader, that role has since been assumed by the new Swastika; Deiter Von Reiniger. (Bolding added) Depending upon the reason for Schmidt's expulsion, it could help turn / rehabilitate any captured Attentäter. ("See, your genetic original has seen the error of his ways. Why don't you do the same?") Alternately, after Schmidt's expulsion the New Reich might worry about his clones being turned against them, and implant remote-trigger micro-explosives into the Attentäter's skulls. This pretty much would make the OP fairly moot, and the New Reich might even blame the PCs or the authorities for the Attentäter deaths. Played right, this could set up some interesting roleplaying if (admittedly this might be a big "if") the player character heroes decide to save a captured Attentäter from the New Reich's brain-blowing vengeance. [i'm reminded of a ST:TNG episode where they captured and isolated a Borg, then debated the morality of using him as a weapon against the Borg Collective.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! use them to fight the Seperatists! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatinKitty Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! Get them to picket the Reich for the same treatment as Human Soldiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! Get them to picket the Reich for the same treatment as Human Soldiers. Wait one here. "Same as?" They are human soldiers, except to the agamogenetophobes. When, when, will people be judged on their merits, rather than the number of contributors to their gametes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenAge Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! But these clones were incubated to adulthood. It could be argued that they're instant copies with no former life and only trained to be Nazi assassins (hardly ready fro prime time suburb life). And they will all have the exact DNA and identifiable tags as the original Swastika. Couldn't he say that's ID theft and demand his individuality back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! I shake my head. It might be too late to reach you, man. We'll just have to campaign to get Heather has One Father/Mother on the curriculum at your kid's school and hope that the next generation is more tolerant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenAge Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! I shake my head. It might be too late to reach you' date=' man. We'll just have to campaign to get [i']Heather has One Father/Mother[/i] on the curriculum at your kid's school and hope that the next generation is more tolerant. What? Get a grip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenAge Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! At the very least, these clones would be treated like terrorists with no legal citizenship within the USA. At worst, providing these clones with citizenship and reentry into society poses an incredible dilemma: What if it were you? You are a dirty, shedding thing (we all are). Acquiring a sample of your DNA would be easy enough and not illegal (since you leave a trail of it where ever you go, and once you leave it behind you relinquish ownership). Now, I take that DNA and forge 100 clones of you. Okay, the law hates the idea that I can do that. They confiscate my cloning machine and throw me in jail (i don't know, maybe for littering... or operating cloning machinery without a license). But what about the 100 clones (without birth certificates and a proper repertoire of life experiences)? What if I had trained them as assassins??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! What? Get a grip! [Psst: I think he's being facetious.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! Do the clones have free will? If they do, they're functionally(and physically) indistinguishable from other living persons, except for being genetically identical. If they don't, then they're in some category other than living persons, with rights not clearly defined. If it's hard to tell, then you have an interesting plot point and moral dilemma. Now, the ethics of creating "artificial persons" who are carefully engineered to fall short of what we consider "free will", that's another interesting moral dilemma... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! At the very least' date=' these clones would be treated like terrorists with no legal citizenship within the USA.[/quote'] They do? Since when does our america(this planet, this time, this reality) regards clones as terrorists? Or is it: "they do that in my campaign" Well, that is a whole nother story, and requires the complete campaign background. When they are at war and they are to hard to imprision, you can always just shoot them (well, the army can at least). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! Are they clones of white people or some other, more expendable, nationality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! Now, the ethics of creating "artificial persons" who are carefully engineered to fall short of what we consider "free will", that's another interesting moral dilemma... Going on now, in another thread Lucius Alexander Palindromedary Enterprises: generating interesting ethical questions since 1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! They do? Since when does our america(this planet, this time, this reality) regards clones as terrorists? Or is it: "they do that in my campaign" Given the description of their training and activities, I'm sure they do. GoldenAge did say "these clones" not "any clones." I question the citizenship part, though. If they were created on American soil, they might count as citizens...or might not, if the process isn't considered as counting as "being born." Lucius Alexander This palindromedary was born in the USA. Errr. If you call what palindromedaries do "birth" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenAge Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! Are they clones of white people or some other' date=' more expendable, nationality? [/quote'] Ouch! Ahem... NAZIs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenAge Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! Given the description of their training and activities, I'm sure they do. GoldenAge did say "these clones" not "any clones." I question the citizenship part, though. If they were created on American soil, they might count as citizens...or might not, if the process isn't considered as counting as "being born." Lucius Alexander This palindromedary was born in the USA. Errr. If you call what palindromedaries do "birth" I'm pretty sure one could argue that they weren't born, they were made (unnaturally). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! I'm pretty sure one could argue that they weren't born' date=' they were made (unnaturally).[/quote'] Dress them in Camouflage, and watch McBeth's reaction. This gives us, basically, Humans who were never born. And lots and lots of work for lawyers and legal scholars. Lucius Alexander Why do you never see a lawyer riding a palindromedary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! This gives us, basically, Humans who were never born. And lots and lots of work for lawyers and legal scholars. Show us the birth certificate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenAge Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Re: The Morality of Sending In The Clones! This gives us' date=' basically, Humans who were never born. And lots and lots of work for lawyers and legal scholars.[/quote'] Now you're starting to understand my conundrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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