Superheroes Who Kill?

[assault]

Originally posted by Hermit

Another thing that works, both to further 'realism' and make it so the players don't feel they're helpless to stop the 'revolving door' is to handle the State responsibly, and occaisonally a 'killer villain' gets death row and ends up successfully executed.

 

Like you said, the GM has to act responsibly as well, and while it's okay to play the system as in need of help, it's unfair (both to the real system AND the players) to portray that system as eternally incompetent.

 

My Australian based games don't have the death penalty, so that's not an option.

 

The revolving door thing doesn't usually happen in my games. Master villains usually meet their ends in "accidents", so "justice is served". That is, of course, unless they escape completely.

 

Of course, many of the accidental deaths turn out to be a bit temporary.

 

Lesser villains are occasionally broken out of prison by their bosses, if I feel like reusing them. Otherwise they rot.

 

I don't tend to use a lot of villains in my campaign. I like to be able to recycle them. On the other hand, dead is usually dead.

 

I prefer to fill most of the roles supervillains play with robots, zombies, aliens, mindcontrolled minions, temporarily powered lackeys, power suits, and so on, so many can be safely destroyed, while others can be replaced.

 

As a player, my approach is a little different. My characters don't generally see themselves as crime fighters. Rather, they are protectors of the innocent and so on. They don't particularly feel the need to play at being cops. Of course, exposing corrupt cops is a whole other matter...

 

Being non-sanctioned, of course, killing is legally dubious, and thus not a good idea. They will avoid it unless it's utterly necessary.

 

I will point out here that I play other genres besides superheroes. In particular, I play SF and pulp games. In these, while there is no genre prohibitions against killing, it's usually not a good idea to do it inappropriately.

 

My four-colour games are, I suppose, "Bronze Age" in feel. Either that, or pre-Comics Code. Killing is an exception, but it happens. On the other hand, casual killer vigilantes are supervillains. In fact, they are often amongst the most interesting supervillains.

 

At times I have considered running a game where there are two groups of PCs: one of "four colour" supers and the other of "dark" vigilantes. It would be interesting to see how they interact. With a bit of prodding, you could spark an all-out war between them. If they were really smart, they could even recruit some villains to their side.

 

PS: I just reread what I wrote. It adds up to a particularly extremist position. My characters will kill if necessary, but they would rather ally with supervillains than with casual killer vigilantes! That's actually true, for a certain set of supervillains...

 

Alan

[gewing]

I tend to agree with you. SOme Time ago I was trying to come up with a character to fit in a "not dark" 4 color game. At the time, the only idea I had was that the character had the mind of a 12 year old boy, as I had a hard time envisioning anyone else being as utopian minded as I interpreted the GM to want.

 

As it happened, i didn't get to play in the game, and it instantly turned into a MUCH darker game. Oh well. Killing was out, but mind controlling, mindwiping, etc were OK???

 

I tend to fall somewhere in between. Some characters should be unwilling to kill. Others should not. There should be some kind of consequences when killing is done. I have been thinking about running something more like super agents, or military special ops with some powers. Maybe something like "Strike Force Morituri."

 

does anyone have ANY idea how many people the JOKER killed over the decades? I would think a Federal Death penalty would have applied at some point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Storn

wow. Every reply enforces the comic code crap and 4 color outlook.

bigsnip.

 

Listen, I'm not saying that 4 Color is wrong. It is just not for me. And if I had a GM saying I cannot kill because Heroes in Comics don't kill. I would walk. That type of world is inheritently unintersesting to me. What is interesting is the responsibility of power. In my player's pinky is enough power to blow a hole in something, HOW do I deal with that. That is conflict! That is drama! That is interesting!

[lemming]

One of my characters, Calico, started off as a villian in a campaign of mine. She had quite a few rivalries with some of the heroes. They had each done massive amounts of body to each other.

At one point I ran a game that tied in four different campaigns while ending the run of my campaign. (I needed a break)

Sam decided he was going to run a Protectors Acamedy. An offshoot of the main group in Boston, most of the players transferred their character from my campaign (same world) since it was based in SF.

I don't remember why I decided to, but I decided that Calico's backstory was that she had infiltrated Freelance (one of the villain groups recently dissolved) while being a member of SWORD (the PRIMUS equivelint) She had kept a stream of information, etc... flowing to the goverment.

 

She was probably the least liked PC I have ever played. She was treated like a complete killer and eater of babies. What's funny, she never killed anyone as a PC onscreen. (Once she (well, me the player) forgot an agent she had hung off a scaffolding in a building that exploded, and she did declare a villian dead even though he had two post12s to die...)

[Ghost who Walks]

Can't resist commenting again...

 

Originally posted by KA.

"One hundred orphans have small nuclear devices implanted in their chests. If they suffer so much as a paper cut, the device will detonate and destroy a twelve block radius.

 

The only way to prevent detonation is to vaporize the orphan in one shot. They are spread throughout the city, and the devices will begin to detonate in two hours."

 

How the heck you are supposed to deal with that in a "four color" way, I don't know.

 

4-Color way: Professor Fabulous cryogenically freezes the entire city. Everyone in the city is frozen, and their brainwaves are stored in his megacomputer-wristwatch. He then shrinks himself down to the subatomic level, and neutralizes the radioactive material in the bombs.

 

Red Ink way: The children are all picked up telekinetically, and airlifted to Dr. Destoryers island. The good Doctor must overcome the latest threat from the wicked players, or be destroyed.

 

[assault]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

4-Color way: Professor Fabulous cryogenically freezes the entire city. Everyone in the city is frozen, and their brainwaves are stored in his megacomputer-wristwatch. He then shrinks himself down to the subatomic level, and neutralizes the radioactive material in the bombs.

 

Yeah.

 

Real big magic is good too.

 

Failing that, hop into your time machine and prevent it from happening.

 

What? The GM won't let you have a time machine? Well, just find someone who does!

 

Alan

[Chuckg]

Well, my current PC would simply shift her Power Pool over to a Major Transform (radioactives to harmless inert materials) and spend 2 hours running around town like Kinetik on amphetamines.

 

Either that, or the team can page a favor from Captain Chronos to whip out a time-stasis to put the little darlings in until something can be done.

 

Failing that, there is the "Judge Dredd" solution -- handcuff the bomb-maker to his own bomb and *then* ask him if he can remember those disarming instructions now.

[assault]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Failing that, there is the "Judge Dredd" solution -- handcuff the bomb-maker to his own bomb and *then* ask him if he can remember those disarming instructions now.

 

Correct! That's how Batman would do it too. And nobody's more four colour than Batman.

 

Another option would be for your telepath to rip the disarming instructions from the villain's head.

 

Actually, there's a lot of solutions, isn't there?

 

Too easy. Next question?

 

Alan

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Well, my current PC would simply shift her Power Pool over to a Major Transform (radioactives to harmless inert materials) and spend 2 hours running around town like Kinetik on amphetamines.

Just to be pedantic, that won't save the 100 orphans. As a four-color player I feel obligated to point out that nuclear weapons are triggered by conventional high explosives, so the kids will still die when those explosives detonate if you simply Transform the nuclear material to an inert substance like cheese.

 

I recommend Transforming the entire device into a Power Puff Girlsâ„¢ backpack.

[CrosshairCollie]

I can support a hero killing if there is no other choice. I mean, absolutely, positively, zero-zip-zilch-at-all-no-way-no-choice. Of course, there's almost always a way that the DM hasn't thought of, assuming that the characters have something besides blast-powers. The team I'm running right now has both a telepath, and a character with a very large VPP of Force Field powers (a la the Invisible Woman) ... they can handle hostage situations.

 

However, that's the ONLY time I would accept killing. I play RPGs for the escapism of it. I don't want moral relativity, excessive gray areas, needless brutality, and that sort of thing ... I can watch the news and get all that. I like my heroes at least in the 'mostly-shiny' category, and do not foresee ever playing a Champions character without at least a 10 point CvK (sadly, I don't foresee ever *playing* Champs again).

 

I also think playing a CvK hero is more rewarding because it's harder. You have to try to think your way out of more situations, because taking the easy way is often the wrong way. Yeah, you could just pop the hostage-taker in the face with a KA. But it's a challenge to find a way to save the hostage and not kill the hostage-taker, which is more rewarding for me.

[Chuckg]

> Just to be pedantic, that won't save the 100 orphans. As a

> four-color player I feel obligated to point out that nuclear

> weapons are triggered by conventional high explosives, [snip]

 

Ah, but in a four-color game, genre convention is that doing something like this harmlessly disarms the entire bomb.

 

In a game with a higher realism quotient, she'd do something like Major Transform (Implanted Device To Sterile Saline Solution).

 

 

Re: "hostage situations" -- whoa yeah. There's a reason one of our current team took a Teleport (Usable As Attack) slot in his spatial manipulation multipower -- anybody tries holding a hostage on us, either him, his hostage, or his weapon's gonna end up standing a few hexes to the left.

[Brandi]

Originally posted by assault

Correct! That's how Batman would do it too. And nobody's more four colour than Batman.

 

Which Batman? The jolly one who'd dress up in the worst Bat-costume ever to protect Robin's secret identity (don't ask), or the Batman who'll dangle a punk from a skyscraper and enjoy the screams? (Wish I could've gotten the actual panel for that.)

[zornwil]

I haven't ever run a 4-color campaign so can't respond precisely to stopping players from killing in THAT context. Given others shared non-4-color and killing experiences, figured I'd share here.

 

In the prior campaign I ran, the only killing PC generally hid his roughness, so nobody knew. He was good enough and smart enough at it but more important SPARING enough with it that he just got away with it. Had the PC been more reckless, his own teammates would have hesitantly done "something" but I'm not sure what.

 

In the current campaign there have been limited deaths in combat, 2 or 3. In this world, that's permissible to the authorities so long as it's kept under control. The public is divided on the matter. The only PC to kill in cold blood did so out of revenge for his mother's brutal slaying, with the teammates fully aware. Only one teammate has a CVK (and there is NO implied "0 point" CVK in my games), and hers was not total or along those lines. She began drinking heavily and hassling the player a couple times, as well as distrusting him somewhat. Since then things have begun to change for both as she's started to control her drinking while the killing PC has gone through a major moral transformation, realizing how his relative moral values, as evidenced by his near-corruption at the hands of the Necronomicon (which he had to defeat through a quest, all part of a radiation accident), is dangerous. He is going nearly 4-color now (nothing like the zeal of a convert) somewhat to the consternation of one of his teammates (who is all about moral grayness and plausible deniability though he's never killed).

 

The other killing incident, again involving the same PC as above, was where the team ended up going after Kingpin who sat in a witness protection program/semi-house-arrest status. Without going into the whole story, at the end of the saga ANOTHER "hero", this one a casual killer, who was actually an unknowing puppet of Kingpin and had suffered tragically from him (lost his family, etc.) came in and killed Kingpin, cutting his head off while surrounding the few standing team members present in darkness. The only PC who might have done anything, the one mentioned above, just let it happen, and then covered up his involvement by tampering with the tapes.

 

But the government knows at least that the team must have been able to do more than what was said on paper and have started yanking them around more than a bit. It cost one character an easy undercover transport into Mongolia, and has been a contributing (but not sole) factor in the assignment of a real hardass federal agent to watch over them. The events of 9/11 (somewhat altered) and the creation of the Homeland Protection Agency was the other factor, the government is trying to coordinate metahumans through singular liaisons who have power over all other government jurisdictions per the supers they are responsible for.

[Doug McCrae]

The way to stop PCs killing in a 4-color game is simple -

 

Ask them not to.

 

Responding to killing with consequences, having the villains use lethal force versus the PCs, doesn't work because the game stops being 4-color.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by zornwil

the creation of the Homeland Protection Agency

Cool!

[The Watcher]

Originally posted by KA.

"One hundred orphans have small nuclear devices implanted in their chests. If they suffer so much as a paper cut, the device will detonate and destroy a twelve block radius.

 

The only way to prevent detonation is to vaporize the orphan in one shot. They are spread throughout the city, and the devices will begin to detonate in two hours."

 

How the heck you are supposed to deal with that in a "four color" way, I don't know.

Warp: Teleport to one of my storerooms to pick-up my N-ray Vision Goggles, and then go around using my Teleport 20', Usuable as an Attack, to port the conventional explosives used to trigger the nuclear reaction away.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae

Cool!

 

Thanks! I try to integrate current events, although because of some differences in my campaign world things will diverge rather than converge as time goes on. Of course my campaign is now almost exactly 2 years behind the times as I don't like to skip too much time and we don't play that often, so it will take a while for that to happen.

[lemming]

Originally posted by zornwil

The other killing incident, again involving the same PC as above, was where the team ended up going after Kingpin who sat in a witness protection <snip>

There was also a combat death during that game as well. Was it Troll who killed Home Despot?

My character, Spectrum, is the one with the CVK. There were a few other incidents that got her very messed up mentally. Nothing like having three other spirits sharing your body to mess you up.

It's been a very interesting campaign with lots of exploration of character.

 

[zornwil]

Originally posted by lemming

There was also a combat death during that game as well. Was it Troll who killed Home Despot?

My character, Spectrum, is the one with the CVK. There were a few other incidents that got her very messed up mentally. Nothing like having three other spirits sharing your body to mess you up.

It's been a very interesting campaign with lots of exploration of character.

 

 

Ah, yes, that's the "or 3", thanks.

 

As I recall, though, didn't Spectrum start drinking before the possession?

 

And thanks much!

 

[lemming]

Originally posted by zornwil

Ah, yes, that's the "or 3", thanks.

 

As I recall, though, didn't Spectrum start drinking before the possession?

Just a bit, but she was also balancing the obvious to her that her other self had rewritten a bunch of people's memories. I think the drinking really started then and accelerated after she bought the haunted house.

[bubba smith]

Re: Superheroes Who Kill?

 

wow. Every reply enforces the comic code crap and 4 color outlook.

 

This one will not. We play a world of consequences that looks more like Authority or Planetary or Watchmen.

 

Well, my PC (who just recently went over 600 pts in 11 years of gaming) has killed. Sometimes deliberately from ambush (that's what happens when PSI takes a hostage and you can't allow them to "report in"). Sometimes in the heat of battle. And once in cold blood.

 

The amount of power these characters weild is immense. Anything over 12d6 normal attack IS a lethal attack for a normal. Do not kid yourselves. It is just the way most Champs characters are built, they can suck that up.

 

But when there are 11 European cities with nuclear devices ready to go off... it is not time for namby-pamby hand holding for villians. Putting Dr. Destroyer into Stronghold, where he will get out and he will gain even more converts... is irresponsible.

 

But I have never killed easily. And I don't like killing. But if the stakes are high enough and innocents need to be defended.... you do not mess with my character.

 

Nor has it been often. Compared to how much combat my character has seen?!!?!?! Probably been in 200-250 scrapes, firefights, and full blown wars. I don't keep track of how many deaths I've caused directly, but it is under 50.....37 of them were an accident that was not in my control (my powers returned spectacularly and explosiviely after them being lost for several months).

 

Compare that to how many lives my PC has saved? I feel quite strongly that I'm still a hero.

 

When I met Neil and he told me of his game and RDU, I had come off of two Champions games, one I ran, another run by someone else. I told Neil that 1) I didn't want to do bankrobbery stories. And 2) I wanted to tackle comic book emulation with modern sensibilities. That meant coming in with a proactive character. Not sitting around on my hands while the Sentinel alarm went off. And rotating door policies for villians. How many times do you allow the Joker to escape and kill again before you take his ass out? The remenants of Silver Age elements, themes and enforced codes?....I wasn't interested. I wanted to do serious stories about serious situations with the sci-fi element of people with powers. Heck, I can even do without codenames and costumes... although that has seemed to stuck around.

 

Listen, I'm not saying that 4 Color is wrong. It is just not for me. And if I had a GM saying I cannot kill because Heroes in Comics don't kill. I would walk. That type of world is inheritently unintersesting to me. What is interesting is the responsibility of power. In my player's pinky is enough power to blow a hole in something, HOW do I deal with that. That is conflict! That is drama! That is interesting!

would you advise any of the other playerswho agreed wit you to walk as well?

[Storn]

Re: Superheroes Who Kill?

 

would you advise any of the other playerswho agreed wit you to walk as well?

 

Depends on how strongly you feel and what the outlook for other games are like in your area. Right now, I'm in a very strong gamer-rich environment. I've sat out of games that my group wanted to play that I wasn't interested in. We just had one campaign and group unexpectantly disintegrate to reform with a couple of players that i've played with in the past. But haven't played with in about year and 1/2.

 

But, yeah, if the game makes you miserable and it isn't the kinda thing you want to explore, it might be time to look for a game that makes you excited to play.

 

Of course, I would talk it over with the current group before walking.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheroes Who Kill?

 

Depends on how strongly you feel and what the outlook for other games are like in your area. Right now, I'm in a very strong gamer-rich environment. I've sat out of games that my group wanted to play that I wasn't interested in. We just had one campaign and group unexpectantly disintegrate to reform with a couple of players that i've played with in the past. But haven't played with in about year and 1/2.

 

But, yeah, if the game makes you miserable and it isn't the kinda thing you want to explore, it might be time to look for a game that makes you excited to play.

 

Of course, I would talk it over with the current group before walking.

 

I'd rather have a player say "not really my type of game" then sit in, be unhappy and probably make everyone else unhappy due to his unwillingness to play the game in progress. Given the choices of:

 

- player plays a character he doesn't like to fit in with the game

- player plays a character that doesn't fit in with the game and wrecks it for everyone else

- player doesn't play

 

The third seems like the best option for everyone.

 

When we're starting another game, let that player know - he's welcome to play in that game if it's more to his liking.

[Tech]

Re: Superheroes Who Kill?

 

I had a few questions to throw around about Heroes who kill in a Superhoeroic campaign.

 

What have you found helpful to discourage players who either want to or really don't care if it accidentally happens?

 

It seems to me that having the player become wanted for murder (in a non-Dark Champions game) will be more of a hassle than it would be fun, especially if they get caught. What player wants to spend their night roleplaying an inmate?

 

What happens if the caught Hero is sentenced to death?

 

What have you found helpful in avoiding these situations all together?

 

I really don't have much to say here. I think the intent of the question is for those heroes who actively kill or could care less about killing. This doesn't happen in the campaign I'm in I'm glad to say. There has been a few deaths of villains, almost entirely by other villains. However, there have been a couple caused by heroes: these were self-defense and to protect others as there simply wasn't other any way. I think in both cases it was someone from Viper.

 

In the campaign otherwise, the villains get defeated and the heroes go home knowing they've protected the neighborhood or city with a clean conscience and a good feeling, sometimes with the adoring adulation of the public.

[Vulcan]

Re: Superheroes Who Kill?

 

Can't resist commenting again...

 

 

 

4-Color way: Professor Fabulous cryogenically freezes the entire city. Everyone in the city is frozen, and their brainwaves are stored in his megacomputer-wristwatch. He then shrinks himself down to the subatomic level, and neutralizes the radioactive material in the bombs.

 

Red Ink way: The children are all picked up telekinetically, and airlifted to Dr. Destoryers island. The good Doctor must overcome the latest threat from the wicked players, or be destroyed.

 

 

Your GM allows you to play at that level of power? You lucky dog!

[Vulcan]

Re: Superheroes Who Kill?

 

If you want to run a 4-color CVK game, you have to make sure that the players know this, and know to make appropriate characters.

 

For the CVK campaign, a several character concepts just won't work. The ex-soldier, for example, has been trained to kill threats. Cops won't hesitate to use lethal force when a life is on the line ( I know a couple; when it comes down to 'us or them', they are trained to shoot ).

 

The CVK superhero is almost always someone with a regular life who somehow gets superpowers. They are raised by their parents and their society to equate killing with wrongness. (Which, incidentally, explains why a lot of people are uneasy around cops nowadays, much less sodiers. Sure, we support our troops - from a distance.)

 

It is my personal, firm belief that there are some (granted, only a very small number) people who need to die. I would prefer that they be taken in, given their day in court so people can be shown why they need to die, but if they have a gun to a hostages' head, I want the police sniper to take the shot. Better that then let a killer escape to kill again.

 

In game, this can become an issue. I have played a casual killer in game (and come to regret it). Now I tend to play cops/solider types. For these characters, lethal force has its place. It's not the perfect solution to all problems - violence rarely is - but sometimes it is better than the alternatives.