Selling back OMCV

[quozaxx]

I have noticed that very few characters (at least in the Champions Villains series) have sold back any of their OMCV values.

 

But some of my players have sold some points back, noting that they are not mentalist and would never need or use such values, and thus using the points to better uses.

 

The question is: Would you allow a character to sell back their OMCV? If so, what criteria would you demand?

 

I have already allowed some characters to sell back their OMCV, what is a good way to "teach them a lesson" about selling back such a characteristic?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

It is the GM's Option to allow PC's to sell off their Characteristcs. The Character Creation Guidelines will make this clear at Character Creation which is a joint process. If it is something unexpected (and what is not with PC's) then the GM must make a ruling and ask the PC's to abide by it. (Any Ruling must be added to the Character Creation Guidelines).

 

For existing PC's in an on going Campaign allow the PC to Adjust their Character or to pay it off with Experience Points. IMOHO.

 

QM

[Folded]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

Just read the BR entry on OMCV, and I must admit that it doesn't make any real sense for this to be a default attribute. Allowing non-mentalist characters to sell it back seems a little unbalancing, since it essentially adds 15 points to the cost of running a mentalist (everyone else would sell it back). My solution (barring more information) would be to make it a potential attribute, which comes into existence at the base value of 3 for the character when they purchase a Power that uses it. Otherwise, it is ignored, unless a use for it that would apply generally is added (certainly possible, in one of the supplements or rules I don't have).

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

I hate you making sense.

 

Stop that

 

QM

[Folded]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

Fa-fa-fa-fa-fa fa-fa-fa-fa-fa better run run run run run run run away

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

Psycho Killer - Reference?

[Folded]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

But of course. One of the first songs I remember really liking before high school (back in '82 or so, I think).

 

And, naturally, it's on the album Stop Making Sense.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

ROFLOL

 

Thanks

 

QM

[John T]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

The question is: Would you allow a character to sell back their OMCV? If so' date=' what criteria would you demand?[/quote']

I revert to the "if a disadvantage isn't a disadvantage, you get nothing for it" reasoning. They can GIVE away those levels, but they get nothing for it. Criteria? You have to have mental attacks.

 

I have already allowed some characters to sell back their OMCV, what is a good way to "teach them a lesson" about selling back such a characteristic?

Being up front that you've changed your mind, based on the above reasoning, and re-working the characters with the OMCV "re-purchased". No need to teach anyone a lesson regarding a mistake that was made both ways.

[Christopher]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

I have noticed that very few characters (at least in the Champions Villains series) have sold back any of their OMCV values.

 

But some of my players have sold some points back, noting that they are not mentalist and would never need or use such values, and thus using the points to better uses.

 

The question is: Would you allow a character to sell back their OMCV? If so, what criteria would you demand?

 

I have already allowed some characters to sell back their OMCV, what is a good way to "teach them a lesson" about selling back such a characteristic?

The great problem is, that you cannot Block or Attack Mentally without any power. I am certain that some of the more advanced "Mental Combat"-Systems give it a use for non-mentalists, but for all others I would just disallow selling it back.

I have to agree with John: If it is not hindering, it's not worth any points. If you don't have anything that uses it, OMCV simply becomes Dormant (6E1 46) and so far I never even had the idea to sell it back.

 

If you plan on allowing it and making it a problem:

The group could always get temporary equipment (neede to fullfill the job), that requires OMCV (either by projecting a mental power, or the "Required Roll: MCV Attack Roll").

Or a AVAD/NND could be against OMCV*/Blocked by Successfull OMCV Roll. (*you could use the Character Points Value of the OCV as the Value of the "Defense")

But totally selling it back would give you 15 Points and it's hard to think of penalties on par with Loosing Touch and Smell or Taste Sense (also a 15 point Sellback).

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

"essentially adds 15 points to the cost of running a mentalist"

It is only 9 points, but to twist the question around why should I pay 9 points for something I will never use.

 

"if a disadvantage isn't a disadvantage, you get nothing for it"

But, Disadvantages are not Complications. I will accept the GM's Ruling, but hope he lets me pay it off with Experience/Character Points and not have to make yet another character revision.

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Christopher]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

It is only 9 points' date=' but to twist the question around why should I pay 9 points for something I will never use.[/quote']

Oh right, OMCV was only 3 per point.

 

Why should you pay? You don't pay. You want to sell somthing back. You want to loose a ability all characters have by default to gain extra Character points.

Complications, Limitations and Sellbacks are all identical in the way they work: You have a drawback compared to someone without them, so you get points for it (either by literally getting points or by not having to pay that much).

How is having a OMCV of 0 going to affect your character negatively compared to a character that left it? And is this impact anywhere near loosing your sense of touch (wich inlcudes -3 on Dex Based Skills, HTH-Combat and Ranged Combat with Guns).

[Opale]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

I tend to agree with the fact that players shouldn't be allowed to sell back those MCV.

My way is simple : you tell your players you have made an error, and that they will need to payback the cost of the MCV. if they don't have any experience point left, tell them you will use the next ones they get, all in a row oor on a prorata of what they get.

 

If they yell and don't agree, send them to me, I'll make big eyes to them and hire a polonian assassin to kick their asses.

 

Opale

 

Not selling back any of her characteristics

[torchwolf]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

You can't normally sell back any Characteristic below 1 without specific permission by the GM, so we're talking about 6 points, not 9.

 

There seems to be four schools of thought about this:

1) Yes: It's only 6 points, and the argument that this would make Mentalists pay tax is not true since MCVs only cost 3 points each as compared to CVs which cost 5 points each.

 

2) Yes: Selling back OMCV is similar to selling back a normal Sense or Movement, freeing you up to 6 points to spend on other things, but it will occasionally cause you trouble, just as the GM will put you in situations where having that Sense or Movement would have been useful.

 

3) Yes and No: Campaign-dependent; in a campaign where MCVs are not used, they do not exist and cannot be sold back. In superheroic campaigns they can be sold back if there are Mental Powers available since you limit your character's future options by selling OMCV back.

 

4) No: Selling back OMCV should not be permitted except for Mentalists.

 

Personally, I think arguments 2 and 4 are the most reasonable.

On the positive (option 2): Allowing the sell-back of OMCV to 1 in effect gives the GM an extra "Complication" to subject characters to.

On the negative (option 4): Allowing it may require the GM to spend extra effort to exploit it, unless selling back OMCV would have a less contrived and direct effect, reflected by specific rules effects of doing so.

 

In the Advanced Players Guide (p64) it is suggested that OMCV vs OMCV (much like a Block) could be used to break free from Mental Powers, giving it a function for non-Mentalists. It is also noted that this would make Mentalists more powerful.

A variation could be: a negative modifier (equal to how much OMCV is reduced) to Breakout Rolls (i.e.; selling back OMCV to 1 would give the character a -2 to EGO Rolls to Break Out of Mental Powers). This would be a house rule, though, and neither official nor semi-official.

 

 

There was extensive discussion on the selling back of OMCV in these threads, where several people (including myself) also made some suggestions for how selling back OMCV could be a drawback.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/74794-Omcv-1

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/75938-OMCV-Whats-it-good-for-%28besides-Mental-Powers%29

[John T]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

If you plan on allowing it and making it a problem:

The group could always get temporary equipment (needed to fullfill the job), that requires OMCV (either by projecting a mental power, or the "Required Roll: MCV Attack Roll").

Or a AVAD/NND could be against OMCV*/Blocked by Successfull OMCV Roll. (*you could use the Character Points Value of the OCV as the Value of the "Defense")

Unless this happens a lot, it won't be worth it, and to me still comes across as trying to "punish" the player, unless the possibility was clear from the outset.

 

but to twist the question around why should I pay 9 points for something I will never use.

It's a freebie you're selling, not something you paid for up front.

 

But, Disadvantages are not Complications. I will accept the GM's Ruling, but hope he lets me pay it off with Experience/Character Points and not have to make yet another character revision. [/Quote]

As with many things Hero, it's a matter of trying to get something for nothing, whether it's a Disadvantage, Complication, Power Limitation, etc. If I buy a blast that does no damage to Zorgarian Space Slugs... and there ARE none... it's worth nothing. By the same token, I stopped using Comliness in my games a long time ago, and stopped letting people sell it back as a result. It was a non-attribute, just as OMCV is (generally, barring the above suggestions) to a non-mentalist.

 

I'd be fine with someone "buying back" the points with xp... as long as that was the first and only thing they did with their xp until it was paid off. Otherwise, it starts to drift into a "gaming the system" situation, something I very up-front and unabashedly don't allow.

 

Not trying to idict anyone here, just very precisely putting forth my stance, just as I do with any of my players. (after noticing that my responses could seem rather brusque and accusatory... but too tired to re-respond coherently)

[John T]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

On a very relevant note, I *have* often house-ruled a mental "block" maneuver than even non-mentalists can use, if mentalists are even moderately prevalent in the game... partly to actually allow folks to sell base OMCV.

 

My definition of "moderately prevalent" is usually "any given character could feasibly be subject to a Mental Attack at least once every 5 or less sessions".

 

YMMV, natch.

[Escafarc]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

Unless there is a "character" reason, I don't allow selling back Characteristics. Besides I also allow mental Blocks(when appropriate) as well as the Breakout rules from the APG1.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

I have noticed that very few characters (at least in the Champions Villains series) have sold back any of their OMCV values.

 

But some of my players have sold some points back, noting that they are not mentalist and would never need or use such values, and thus using the points to better uses.

 

Personally, I take that to mean that very few characters in the CV series are deficient in the mental attributes which would contribute to OMCV. Since an average person has a 3, the character who has a 2, a 1 or (if you are inclined to allow it) a 0 IS deficient compared to an average person, just as a STR of 8, 5 or 3 is comparatively low.

 

The question is: Would you allow a character to sell back their OMCV? If so' date=' what criteria would you demand?[/quote']

 

A reason of the same validity I would expect for selling back STR, or any other characteristic, as stated above. That probably would not be huge, but I do expect the character to be a CHARACTER, not just a bundle of stats and mechanics.

 

I have already allowed some characters to sell back their OMCV' date=' what is a good way to "teach them a lesson" about selling back such a characteristic?[/quote']

 

At most, they have saved 9 points, assuming you allow sellback to 0. What impact would you expect from a 9 point complication (say a 10 point complication, for that matter). Perhaps you need the occasional villain who has mental, or even physical, attacks which are AVACV to target Mental OCV (they must be actively defended to be avoided - I think APG gets into this area). Maybe the characters are required to Enter the Mindscape, or the Astral Plane, or some other location where mental stats replace physical stats (ie all your attacks are directed by mOCV instead of OCV, and Dodged by mDCV, instead of DCV).

 

It should either be a minor issue that comes up a lot (unlikely) or a major issue which comes up pretty infrequently (which would be the above examples), given the points saved. And I would be clear to the players that, like everything else in the game, these are not "free points" - they have chosen to build a character with a deficiency compared to other normal people, and that deficiency will, at least occasionally, be an issue.

 

Just read the BR entry on OMCV' date=' and I must admit that it doesn't make any real sense for this to be a default attribute. Allowing non-mentalist characters to sell it back seems a little unbalancing, since it essentially adds 15 points to the cost of running a mentalist (everyone else would sell it back). My solution (barring more information) would be to make it a potential attribute, which comes into existence at the base value of 3 for the character when they purchase a Power that uses it. Otherwise, it is ignored, unless a use for it that would apply generally is added (certainly possible, in one of the supplements or rules I don't have).[/quote']

 

My approach, if I wanted to remove all benefit of OMCV sellback, would be to set both OMCV and DMCV at a default of 0. Every kid has thrown a rock, tried to tag another kid, and tried to avoid being tagged or hit by a rock, so they have a standard 3 CV. They have not had the opportunity to practice attacking or defending against mental attacks, so standard characters need special training to have mOCV or mDCV above 0. Characters with default stats still hit on 11-, so this does not change the ranges. A mentalist who buys +2 mOCV will hit on a 13-, whether that is a 5 mOCV targeting a 3 mDCV or a 2 mOCV targetting a 0 mDCV, so actual game play is unaffected, except to establish that default characters lack any competency with attacking or defending mentally - they start as low as you can go!

 

The Mental Block is another excellent approach.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

I think John hit the nail on the head pointing out that if it doesn't limit the character, it shouldn't be worth points. In my own mind it smacks of rules raping; designing around the points rather than the character, so I wouldn't allow it.

 

But if I did allow it, I would certainly use the Mental Block rules to make sure that it came into play. I would also make sure there were some adventures planned where the heroes ended up on the Astral Plane or the DreamRealm or inside somebody's mind, a place where all combat was resolved with MCV instead of regular CV.

[Arc Esu]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

I allow selling back OMCV to 1 (not 0; as mentioned upthread, you're not supposed to do that). My reasoning is thus:

 

1) It's only 6 points, so it won't radically change a character.

 

2) It's "book legal," as near as I can tell, and my personal preference is to avoid house rules except in extreme situations.

 

3) I will occasionally throw a villain with an attack that targets OMCV, or otherwise make the low OMCV a disadvantage.

 

4) Frankly, there are a lot of situations in which a character might want to sell back "useless" Characteristics, and in most cases I would probably let it fly. For example, someone who buys Flight Usable as Swimming might want to sell back his base Swimming. I wouldn't disallow that, and for a non-Mentalist, selling back OMCV is basically the same thing; because of the character choices you made, a particular characteristic is useless, so why not sell it back for points?

[Beast]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

unless I'm playing a mentalist why do I need a 3 in O/DMCV

any mentalist will have a base of 6 or 7 in their OMCV,giving them a 14 or 15 or less roll to hit

those points are better spent as Ego or mental def to reflect a strong will to resist the effects of mental powers

[Christopher]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

I allow selling back OMCV to 1 (not 0; as mentioned upthread' date=' you're not supposed to do that).[/quote']

Considering that you don't suffer any drawbacks for having a 0 CV (as you do for all the other Charactersitics), I would actually allow selling them back to 0.

 

For example' date=' someone who buys Flight Usable as Swimming might want to sell back his base Swimming. I wouldn't disallow that, and for a non-Mentalist, selling back OMCV is basically the same thing; because of the character choices you made, a particular characteristic is useless, so why not sell it back for points?[/quote']

It think you overlook a few things

Point efficience and Enduracne Cost. Also how the ability is drained.

 

Asume a character with 20m flight.

a) If he buys up his swimming to 20m too: 8 Character Points. Swimmign at full speed costs 1 END/Phase.

If he instead sells back his swimming, and buys "Useable as Swimming (+1/4)" he saves 2 Points, but expends 5 (so it costs him only 3). Also swimmign at top speed costs him twice the endurance and his swimming speed is affected by "Drain Flight" (wich I asume as being a lot more common).

 

The higher the speed you aim for, the worser it get's.

 

unless I'm playing a mentalist why do I need a 3 in O/DMCV

any mentalist will have a base of 6 or 7 in their OMCV,giving them a 14 or 15 or less roll to hit

those points are better spent as Ego or mental def to reflect a strong will to resist the effects of mental powers

Cumulative Advantage.

 

Also don't forget "credible threat/credible effort". You might think selling back you DMCV might not make much difference, but it means the difference between making it normally hard to hit you or making it so easy, he can put his CSL into DCV. Or can multiattack without being worser of than agaisnt a normal target.

[Ice9]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

unless I'm playing a mentalist why do I need a 3 in O/DMCV

any mentalist will have a base of 6 or 7 in their OMCV,giving them a 14 or 15 or less roll to hit

those points are better spent as Ego or mental def to reflect a strong will to resist the effects of mental powers

This is true actually. As far as DCV is concerned, it makes sense to either buy it up to a competitive level or to drop it entirely. For example, the following:

 

Zen Mental Training (1 RP)

-3 DMCV, +5 to Breakout Rolls

Instead of trying to struggle against the wind, bend with it and let it flow past you harmlessly.

 

Which would be fairly reasonable explanation for selling off OMCV as well. Or alternately, there's this:

 

Tower of Iron Confidence (1 RP)

-3 DMCV, 10 Mental Defense

With my unshakable confidence, I have no need to avoid mental influence - let it bounce off my will!

 

Now yes, this can be countered (by Autofire mental attacks, for one) but against typical threats it works quite well.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

I don't allow players to sell back any of the "CV" characteristics....

[Enforcer84]

Re: Selling back OMCV

 

Just to throw a swerve here...

 

Didn't 6e bring the idea that a blind character now sells back his "sight" sense for 35 pts rather than taking a Physical Complication?

I'm not sure why the blind guy should get 35 more points to play with. despite the fact that a good portion of them will go towards overcoming his blindness...making something else a targeting sense is 20...so... just curious.

 

How does this affect (if at all) the discussion on OMCV?